Homosexuality and religious texts

[Rachie]

I thought I would create this thread to see what the Bible says about homosexuality and religious texts. I will discuss the Holy Bible, I could write something on the Quran as well have studied it as university and have the essays to hand etc.

So, what is the situation regards the Holy Bible. Me myself, I live in the West. I am a Christian and a have an interest in the Torah/The Old Testament and Judaic law. I am trying to lead a holy life and for me much of the Leviticus laws still pertains to my life as a Christian. The Leviticus laws governing homosexuality Leviticus 20:13 were though intended to be for God's chosen people which were the Jewish people. “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” It is not supposed to be for the Gentile's which are not a tribe, but they are non Jews and under a different law.

The time of the Bible the world was small and so the Jewish people were a small nation which God was looking to grow and survive. With Sodom that was pre Leviticus laws, but I do like that God said that if one righteous person was left he would not destroy them. It showed to me how innately holy God was.

God gave his son to us Jesus Christ as a atonement for our sin as Christians. Jesus said to us to love God with all our heart and love our neighbour as ourselves. As followers Jesus didn't ask us to follow the Ten Commandments, but he came to fulfil law and not break all the old laws but bring them to their logical conclusion so the 10 Commandments is still binding. Christians are followers of Christ now and not Gentile's non believers. Paul though has outlined for some laws for non believers, which are Gentile’s-Acts 21:25. The King James version of the Bible which is the traditional version mentions fornication as a sexual immorality and not homosexuality as a law for Gentile’s. “As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.”

What is fornication in the Bible-This is sleeping as someone with someone who married with someone who is unmarried. This is an early edition Bible from 1976.

I emailed a Rabbi yesterday and directed me a website for information on Judaic low. We live in modern day life and to understand Leviticus laws it needs to be read with commentary he said in his communication. Many Jews in the world today do not live under the laws of the Sanhedrin council. They have to follow justice and humanitarian justice mostly like everybody else. Can it expected for a Jew who is gay to be put to death for being gay. I would in most countries no. What is Biblical thought on this. It applies to be a sin homosexuality for gay Jews. However, it is becoming more accepted that they need to be treated with compassion. Also, there is discussion and thought that they can offer an offering for their sin to God as Jewish and not be put to death. Let’s say as well, there doesn’t appear to be now any greater sin. An idol worship would be sin again and so would not honouring parents. Take a look at what Chabad has to say.
www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/961960/jewish/Negative-Commandment-350.htm

Moving On

Jesus told us not to judge others and it is against the law as Christians (James 4:11). " Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law." There today are some gay Christians who have the gifts of the Holy Spirit and work for the church so they are not considered unholy to have these priestly holy gifts. I report some gay Christians report on what they some have asked God to change this nature for whatever reasons they have and some have decided it is what they want to live with and serve God. There are also some communities which support gay Christians like Inclusive Birmingham. I love to see gay people with the Holy Spirit gifts, Jesus said he would give as a form as a comforter. Some of these people may be abstinent and some perhaps they are not and are in a blessed or married relationship and they are walking on their journey.

So people get their olive branch and grafted back on the olive tree. Let us start welcoming gay people to the body of the church. They are members of my church as well who are dear to me.

I hope this is clear what is common thought now. I am open to corrections and your thoughts to get this right.

Let us focus on love which was the message for us at this week-(John 14: 23-29).

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I think we all must be careful when reading the texts that we don't isolate specific phrases and take them out of context of the greater narrative. Furthermore, there must be some understanding of the historical, technological, and societal times that these were written. In some societies, back in the day, there was religious law, the framework of the texts being the foundation for societal law. What may have been appropriate back then, is not now-a-days. All these books will contain some rather disturbing passages regarding topics like slavery, a woman's role, homosexuality, and so on, that can be taken out of context, interpreted, and used in some rather disturbing and evil ways. Are you following the word of God/Allah or are you following the people who sat down and wrote the texts who are trying to convey the word of God/Allah within the context of the society and times they were written?

 

[Rachie]

Neonatal RRT I was asked this question what do I think of the Leviticus homosexuality laws in an open thread about religion as a Christian a few days ago. I looked at it again with new lenses and consulted a Rabbi who has helped me in the past. This person a non believer who asked me this question was still assuming that stoning would be in order for this community and I didn't agree that would be the case.

Indeed it seems times are moving on and I hope this can give people some clarity on that as well. I love Judaism, but follow the generation of Jesus Christ. The expectations for priests may be slightly different to for a believer who is not serving in ministry. Jesus came to bring Old Testament laws to their logical conclusion, but didn't do away with all the old laws.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

This is Hollywood, a fictional President, but this scene does address the Leviticus homosexuality, and other Biblical laws, in a rather interesting way.

 

[NB79]

Hi, sexual immorality ruins our communion with the Spirit of God, and pastor can't be pastor is he is fighting the Spirit of God with their sins, be fornication, adultery, porn, homosexuality, thievery, lying etc etc.
Sin quenches the Holy spirit you can't feel right as a christian if you swim in sin, let alone as some minister. The world does not understand this, they would say christians are being prejudiced, and judgemental, but they don't get that for a Christian, communion with God, is number one priority, and to have the correct relationship with Him, and that the Holy spirit is precious and cannot live in dirt.

Also the NT talks about this sins, and what society, is doing right now, is 'calling bad things good and good things bad' which is testament that wickedness is increasing.

 

[Rachie]

This persons Youtube who is a child of God may get some to consider thinking again. This person is clearly gifted to the hills to me spiritually and he was walking with Jesus serving in the church. He claims to to have cured his autism but I think still has some residual autism left, I am not looking to cure mine as well. He went to say towards he was gay and Jesus was walking with him. It is a private journey that involves nobody else.

This is not about my opinion at all, it is just scripture for today's of Jews and also Christians and others may know actually what the law is.

 

[Rachie]

Hi, sexual immorality ruins our communion with the Spirit of God, and pastor can't be pastor is he is fighting the Spirit of God with their sins, be fornication, adultery, porn, homosexuality, thievery, lying etc etc.
Sin quenches the Holy spirit you can't feel right as a christian if you swim in sin, let alone as some minister. The world does not understand this, they would say christians are being prejudiced, and judgemental, but they don't get that for a Christian, communion with God, is number one priority, and to have the correct relationship with Him, and that the Holy spirit is precious and cannot live in dirt.

Also the NT talks about this sins, and what society, is doing right now, is 'calling bad things good and good things bad' which is testament that wickedness is increasing.

Yes, thank you NB79 for your post, the Bible in the New Testament does say that carnal sin is an enmity against God. In Genesis these relations do not appear to be how God intended to create the world. However, I do think if someone was in the ministry and absistent and not giving of seed of themselves as well and a gave sin offering God may have a role for them as well in the ministry. In Leviticus self pleasure is not clean for men as well. With Adam and Eve's original sin all of us felt it as well.

"Leviticus 15:16-19-"
And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even.

 

[Dagan]

Hi, sexual immorality ruins our communion with the Spirit of God, and pastor can't be pastor is he is fighting the Spirit of God with their sins, be fornication, adultery, porn, homosexuality, thievery, lying etc etc.

You do know that makes as much sense as someone saying that everyone who chokes, rapes, scams, stabs, shoots or votes Republican are abominations to god..? One of those is clearly not like the others by leaps and bounds. You may not like it, but it doesn't belong in the same categorization at all. This is the kind of thing that pushes for all of the pride groups, rallies and such to even occur in the fashions that they have become. Creating an enemy is what also creates movements in return and so very publicly right back against you. Pretty sure every pride event and then some are full of signs or chants about "quit treating us so crappy." There's always only this core reason their group and every other marginalized, ostracized group rise up to fight back / protest.

Per every religious text, there are more cherry-picked, out-of-context interpretations than fully correct ones. For example: How many times have you sat in a sermon and heard the exclamations about Sodom and Gomorrah - how it was because of homosexuality (instead of it being about how it was truly a whole row of cities along the sea, and it was specifically because they were beyond debaucherous and forcefully so)..........and then that's it, sermon over. They never read the rest of the book to talk about how Lot forced his daughters to live in a cave with them, and they got all hot and bothered, so they got their dad drunk and raped him. Why is that part never preached to the whole congregation? It would actually probably serve way better a purpose to preach it all because it needs to be explained that humans are going to have carnal urges, even in the absolute worst situations. And why? Well, apparently because that's how humans are made - your god made it so - and everyone is just going to have to deal with it themselves because that's what's up. You have the power of choice, so make good ones. You're going to struggle. Oh, well. That's life. You can ask for help and guidance, of course. Most of all, though, you would get a better educated push to actually think further on it all and hopefully research more and just confide in and of yourself and come to well thought out conclusions instead of half-baked ones (from a half-baked sermon) at best....and then.........then you would actually be getting somewhere on the heels of someone like a head minister, cardinal or a pope who are qualified and do make decisions on helping a pastor who is fighting his faith / spirit with god. All of this because they actually read the whole text...and then read others....along with many other books, as well.

It all keeps coming back to me saying the same thing in conclusion. I contend that one has to fully know what's in these texts, otherwise you will not be qualified to truly help anyone just because you claim to represent them or that you think they represent you. And still....you have to use the mind your god gave you to also further apply logic and understanding to continue ever being able to take any "further walk with thee."

The only times that ignorance and arrogance haven't been what expressly causes every single problem in this world.....is when a person decided they didn't want to be those such ways and chose differently.

 

[NB79]

You do know that makes as much sense as someone saying that everyone who chokes, rapes, scams, stabs, shoots or votes Republican are abominations to god..? One of those is clearly not like the others by leaps and bounds. You may not like it, but it doesn't belong in the same categorization at all. This is the kind of thing that pushes for all of the pride groups, rallies and such to even occur in the fashions that they have become. Creating an enemy is what also creates movements in return and so very publicly right back against you. Pretty sure every pride event and then some are full of signs or chants about "quit treating us so crappy." There's always only this core reason their group and every other marginalized, ostracized group rise up to fight back / protest.

Per every religious text, there are more cherry-picked, out-of-context interpretations than fully correct ones. For example: How many times have you sat in a sermon and heard the exclamations about Sodom and Gomorrah - how it was because of homosexuality (instead of it being about how it was truly a whole row of cities along the sea, and it was specifically because they were beyond debaucherous and forcefully so)..........and then that's it, sermon over. They never read the rest of the book to talk about how Lot forced his daughters to live in a cave with them, and they got all hot and bothered, so they got their dad drunk and raped him. Why is that part never preached to the whole congregation? It would actually probably serve way better a purpose to preach it all because it needs to be explained that humans are going to have carnal urges, even in the absolute worst situations. And why? Well, apparently because that's how humans are made - your god made it so - and everyone is just going to have to deal with it themselves because that's what's up. You have the power of choice, so make good ones. You're going to struggle. Oh, well. That's life. You can ask for help and guidance, of course. Most of all, though, you would get a better educated push to actually think further on it all and hopefully research more and just confide in and of yourself and come to well thought out conclusions instead of half-baked ones (from a half-baked sermon) at best....and then.........then you would actually be getting somewhere on the heels of someone like a head minister, cardinal or a pope who are qualified and do make decisions on helping a pastor who is fighting his faith / spirit with god. All of this because they actually read the whole text...and then read others....along with many other books, as well.

It all keeps coming back to me saying the same thing in conclusion. I contend that one has to fully know what's in these texts, otherwise you will not be qualified to truly help anyone just because you claim to represent them or that you think they represent you. And still....you have to use the mind your god gave you to also further apply logic and understanding to continue ever being able to take any "further walk with thee."

The only times that ignorance and arrogance haven't been what expressly causes every single problem in this world.....is when a person decided they didn't want to be those such ways and chose differently.

Because according to the bible, sin corrupts and kills our soul, and separates us from God, Jesus commanded people to repent, He made a sacrifice even to death, to show how serious this is also, and he gets to call of what we need to repent, if we don't recognize our sin we can't do that. Also i mentioned several other stuff, apart from that sin, that also has the same effect.

Nobody can force moral values on others, each person, if willing, need to come close to God themselves. Is the best in life to know God for me.

Anyway the bible says homosexual, or not, 'Everyone sinned, and is separated from the presence of God', 'And only Jesus can fix that'

 

[Dagan]

Technically, every popular god in the world requires sin to exist....or else no one needs them. If you believe your god to be omnipotent (all-knowing), then that means they absolutely created sin on purpose for the express fact that you would make mistakes, have temptations, choose poorly, etc......and then require you to ask them for forgiveness, guidance, help in hard times, to alleviate mental struggles and so on. Gods create sin. Sin creates gods, too, though.

Historical fact: the least believed in / worshipped gods throughout history are/were the ones that weren't scary and to be feared for however multiple reasons - for fear of consequences against doing so many sinful things.

 

[Rachie]

I was looking at what the Bible did say about destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah trying to get to truth. This is using the KJV. It is has been said by some vocally or orally that the city was destroyed because of homosexuality largely. The Bible doesn't actually say this. God just mainly said they were destroyed for grievous sins and tried to placate with them to change their ways before the city was destroyed. As I wrote yesterday this destruction took place before the days of the Leviticus laws/10 Commandments which were for the chosen people. May be the Talmud could tell us more about the listed grievances in Sodom. If it wouldn't surprise me if fornication and adultery where up there.
Behaviour seems to be noted as well. Also, up there was devious wicked plans to be sexually violent with angels of God.
https://www.chabad.org/library/arti...odom-and-Gomorrah-Cities-Destroyed-by-G-d.htm

Sodom and Gomorrah - The Reformation Project

https://journals.co.za/doi/pdf/10.10520/AJA10109919_1001

1 Corinthians 6-9 is against sensuality but promotes marriage and Chasity/abstinence and if its too pressing get married, what can we do if we are concerned pray to God and search our souls for the right answer for us. A carnal chokes spiritual growth (Romans 8:7).

"All things are lawful but not all things are expedient" from 1 Corinthians 10:23, and echoed in 1 Corinthians 6:12, means that while Christians have freedom and are permitted to do many things, not all actions are beneficial or edifying.

As was said yesterday, the greatest sin is against the Holy Ghost which is unforgiveable, everything else is forgivable to Jesus. Matthew 12-32 "Wherefore I say unto you. All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven, neither in this world and in neither in the world to come."

Women-
Leviticus 18:18-Neither, shall thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness beside the other in her lifetime. Their souls were cut of among their people. These were the Chosen people who God had severed for himself and are not under the same law and who may be Gentile's or believers of Christ today.

Leviticus 20:26- And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
This shows that God set apart for himself.

 

[Hypnalis]

Technically, every popular god in the world requires sin to exist....or else no one needs them. If you believe your god to be omnipotent (all-knowing), then that means they absolutely created sin on purpose for the express fact that you would make mistakes, have temptations, choose poorly, etc......and then require you to ask them for forgiveness, guidance, help in hard times, to alleviate mental struggles and so on. Gods create sin. Sin creates gods, too, though.

Historical fact: the least believed in / worshipped gods throughout history are/were the ones that weren't scary and to be feared for however multiple reasons - for fear of consequences against doing so many sinful things.

I understand where you're coming from, but quite a lot of this is inaccurate.

Even a god of love might spontaneously create sin, but I don't think that e.g. gods associated with agriculture and animal husbandry would.

(BTW: "No True Scotsman" is a fallacy.)

Switch out the words 'Sin" (which has a moral dimension (sin isn't a synonym for error, it's a subset)), and the story becomes less simple and more nuanced.

As to where gods come from - I don't think this is the place to expand on that, but FWIW we probably agree.
The Creation of Adam - Wikipedia
IYKYK

FWIW the "sin/gods" argument is reversible, which brings the cause/effect logic into question.
It works just as well if you treat both gods and sin as coming from tightly-coupled confounding factors, such as an innate human need for the first, and "intercession specialists" for the other.

 

[Dagan]

That's what I meant. They are yin and yang, basically. The more you try to rule out one as needing the other, you actually wind up finding out how much more they require each other. It's not absolute, but it's quite a rabbit hole full.

 

[Hypnalis]

That's the part I don't agree with. Gods and sin don't map 1:1.
For example "trickster" gods (Loki, Coyote, Anansi) don't "need" sin.

Sin is good for encouraging people to conform to moral guidelines of course.

 

[Dagan]

The gods you list are expressly full of and only interact with others to exact or influence upon them...sins. That confirms necessity (if the other gods don't ever get rid of them). Tricking someone into a sin is a premeditated act of knowing / hoping for the outcome (at the very least) of bad fortune to the victim. The act of just choosing which person will be a "victim" is itself a sinful thing. The trickster gods you mention don't even exist unless another god allowed it to be so. In their pantheons, they are all children of greater gods who at some point did / should have already known better than to let them have the lives they did and turn out so horrible. In fact, the negligence and/or abuse that made them turn out bad were "sins of the fathers" and compounds the point even more. Either way, these trickster gods were literally and figuratively created by greater god(s). Said god(s) created sin, and overall, they all wound up with greater purpose to one another.

We have circled right back to my claim. And even if you don't want to agree with "need" of one another, surely you can accept that they rather "feed" off one another's existence..?

Also, can you imagine what it even takes for a god to choose wanting / needing drama or hearing people's endless problems all of the time? Most major gods shouldn't want or need in the first place, but think about what it must take to break perfect omnipotence and seriously choose infinite struggles to deal with. It makes me think that eternity must be boring as....well....you know....the place that "isn't" heaven....but that shouldn't be possible. That's a whole new round of questions, though. We can save those for a different thread.



(edited for clarity some)

 

[tree]

REMINDER

The Religious area of the forum isn't for debates, preaching, or talking down to others based on their religious beliefs.
www.autismforums.com/threads/hello-and-welcome-to-the-religion-forum.25334/
Post #1

 

[Rachie]

I do like that this forum exists and we do generally respect each other most of the time. The idea of this thread didn't come from me and not my idea as such. I went back to a forum I used to post at 21 years ago and made a general thread for all people of all faiths to enquire how the last six years may have an impact on them and their faith and then it was kind of derailed with someone asking my views on the Bible and this topic which I had to go and research it myself and look at it again in modern day lenses before I could answer them and I think I did that in respect of scripture as well, trying to get to the truth.

I thought it may give liberty to some people from this community as well, who may feel judged and that Jesus wants them to in the body of Christ and to walk with them and we shouldn't in the business of judging others.

This is post that the question was changed and answer never given and I thought it might help some people here even if they didn't reply. Generally that forum is ok, but even a general thread is too hot of a topic for them.
The last six years affect on your faith/beliefs

 

[Dagan]

My humor failed to come across. My bad. Still, my questions remain - my understanding of facts remain. Their questions and factual views may remain. We keep posing them for want of answers. I guess, it has become more like a debate, so I will leave it be. Truly, though, I contend that via debates, much can be learned (kept civil, of course). We should perhaps consider allowing an area that is cool with debates. Even the silliest of debates can help people learn something from different perspectives. I've seriously seen a debate on who was the character more in the right - Tom or Jerry (yes, the cartoon characters). Turns out that most folks do have a side they chose and ended up with an alternate perspective in the end - not that they accepted it as their correct and moral choice, but they had more perspective than before.

If I have offended anyone, I apologize. I constantly seek answers, and so I constantly pose the questions that lack them with finality.

 

[Rachie]

Fairs fairs in all of this and everyone's bed has been turned over with Christ and now the last will be virgins in the law.

In The New Testament there are no laws given for virginity though as such, but to be keeping in custom is the preferred expectation (1 Corinthians 7). "Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful".