holistic approach

[danjustlovescoffee]

Many people say that people with ASD need a holistic approach when learning something. Have you also heard this?
I am not so sure I understand what they are refering to. What do you think they are refering to?

I have heard some people say that all people need a holistic approach but I am not so sure "normal" people need it in the same way. I am aware that we as a group are very different but we are not considered to be "normal" and I think we often need to look at something from different perspectives before we can really understand something. What do you think?

This is why some of us, or many of us, learn slower than other people in the beginning. Then when we have the fundamentals and have looked at it from different perspectives we learn quickly or in a normal pace. Another thing is that we learn slowly when we have difficulties with something, ie we have motor skills issues so we need more help in the beginning before we can overcome our difficulties. What do you think?

With learning to walk I don't remember anyone saying that I had any specific difficulties and I think I know why. When you are an infant and a young child you are allowed to learn in your own way and pace mor than you are allowed when you get older. Also, infants and young children are never asked to focus on many things at once like you are when you get older. Some difficulties with walking still exists for many people with ASD, ie needing to deal with problematic gait as an adult. What do you think?

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Just for some perspective for this thread,...Holistic Education: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holistic_education

With respect to the so-called "autistic brain" and learning, one of the key identifiers from an anatomical and physiological standpoint is this concept of asymmetry. One consistent finding over the years of study from many researchers using various methods, is that the autistic brain is characterized by areas of hyper and hypo conductivity (high and low voltage) and connectivity (thick and thin wires), furthermore, the individual neurons may have areas of higher or fewer synaptic connections. Some areas of the brains of some individuals may have clusters or tangles of neurons, leading both to high and low functioning, and sensory issues. Some commonly known pathways in neurotypicals may not be there in some autistics,...but rather, somewhat "detoured", taking alternate pathways. Altered neuronal migrational patterns are one of the hallmarks of the autistic brain. Furthermore, there may be areas where there is hyper conductivity in hypo conductive pathways,...and vice-versa leading to imbalances in neurotransmitters leading to mental exhaustion, depression, anxiety, "stimming" behaviors, and psychiatric issues that may need medications. It can also lead to an oxidative-to-antioxidant chemical imbalances, cause neuronal damage, and adversely affect immune function within the brain,...and can lead to differences between the geriatric neurotypical vs. autistic brains in terms of dementia risks. Off topic,...but we have to take extra care with our brains through our nutrition and supplementation.

The end result of this is an individual that can have asymmetrical intelligences, having difficulties in learning and function in some areas, yet, in some cases, may also be extremely high functioning in others. So depending upon the test design, the autistic may do poorly,...or very well. This is where the so-called "intelligence quotient" becomes a less accurate indicator of actual, functional intelligence in the autistic. This also contributes to a population of individuals with far more neurodiversity than so-called "neurotypicals".

Holistic learning, as described in the above link, suggests a better application towards the "humanities and the arts", and less so towards mathematics, chemistry, and the "formal" sciences. Now, the question as to whether who best would benefit from a holistic learning perspective appears to me that this is highly individualized based upon the specific topic and the individual. This is where individualized tutoring may be of benefit, especially in children in a "mainstream" public educational system that typically does not use a holistic learning model,...whereas a tutor or "learning center" may.

 

[danjustlovescoffee]

Just for some perspective for this thread,...Holistic Education: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holistic_education

With respect to the so-called "autistic brain", one of the key identifiers from an anatomical and physiological standpoint is this concept of asymmetry. One consistent finding over the years of study from many researchers using various methods, is that the autistic brain is characterized by areas of hyper and hypo conductivity (high and low voltage) and connectivity (thick and thin wires), furthermore, the individual neurons may have areas of higher or fewer synaptic connections. Some areas of the brains of some individuals may have clusters or tangles of neurons, leading both to high and low functioning, and sensory issues. Some commonly known pathways in neurotypicals may not be there in some autistics,...but rather, somewhat "detoured", taking alternate pathways. Altered neuronal migrational patterns are one of the hallmarks of the autistic brain. Furthermore, there may be areas where there is hyper conductivity in hypo conductive pathways,...and vice-versa leading to imbalances in neurotransmitters leading to mental exhaustion, depression, anxiety, "stimming" behaviors, and psychiatric issues that may need medications. It can also lead to an oxidative-to-antioxidant chemical imbalances, cause neuronal damage, and adversely affect immune function within the brain,...and can lead to differences between the geriatric neurotypical vs. autistic brains in terms of dementia risks. Off topic,...but we have to take extra care with our brains through our nutrition and supplementation.

The end result of this is an individual that can have asymmetrical intelligences, having difficulties in learning and function in some areas, yet, in some cases, may also be extremely high functioning in others. So depending upon the test design, the autistic may do poorly,...or very well. This is where the so-called "intelligence quotient" becomes a less accurate indicator of actual, functional intelligence in the autistic. This also contributes to a population of individuals with far more neurodiversity than so-called "neurotypicals".

Holistic learning, as described in the above link, suggests a better application towards the "humanities and the arts", and less so towards mathematics, chemistry, and the "formal" sciences. Now, the question as to whether who best would benefit from a holistic learning perspective appears to me that this is highly individualized based upon the specific topic and the individual. This is where individualized tutoring may be of benefit, especially in children in a "mainstream" public educational system that typically does not use a holistic learning model,...whereas a tutor or "learning center" may.

"Holistic" refers to looking at all the problems/issue/difficulties a person has?
And even NTs can have the same difficulties even if it is more common in ASD, right?

The Wiki article says that holistic education is something modern but I think it has been there all the time. Is this true?

 

[Neonatal RRT]

"Holistic" refers to looking at all the problems/issue/difficulties a person has?
And even NTs can have the same difficulties even if it is more common in ASD, right?

The Wiki article says that holistic education is something modern but I think it has been there all the time. Is this true?

Correct, correct, and correct.

Although, the Wiki article suggested that holistic learning actually has Ancient Greek, Native American, and Asian roots. Furthermore, holistic learning approach likely has its roots in many cultures going back to Paleolithic eras when we lived with nature, were first discovering our spirituality, discovering the stars, etc. It only appears more of a modern approach from only the perspective that for many years, formal, mainstream, public educational models have put their emphasis upon learning and testing skills,...often without the perspective of "Why am I learning this?". Many children have asked these questions, much to the frustrations of the children, the parents, and the instructors,...neurotypicals and autistics alike.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I believe that each child is a unique individual, and should be raised holistically.

The school system is flawed in that respect.

I believe in following a child's cues, that it is in their nature to want to learn.

I believe in homebirth, elimination communication, extended breastfeeding, teaching empathy, speaking with an adult voice to babies, reading to children from the time they're newborns- sounding out the words, and using mealtime as math time (if I have three apples and I take away one...).

I believe there is no such thing as bad weather- only bad clothing. That it is our duty to take children outside to play and explore nature in all weather.

I believe in trying your hardest (and yes it's an especially hard one) to not raise your voice, to not insult or humiliate a child.

I believe it's our duty to take children of all ages to meet people of all cultures and backgrounds. To have them eat at the homeless feed, not just volunteer there, to take them to different religious temples and churches. Take them to First Baptist and to Gay Pride. To the rodeo and the powwow. To visit colleges, and to sneak into houses on construction yards, to teach them how homes are built. They need to know how to access social services, and how to work hard to rise to the top of whatever they want to be in life.

You can't be prejudiced against something you have been a part of.

And most importantly, they need to know that although there are rules to be followed, that they are loved, regardless of whomever they become, and whatever they do.

We need to take them on bus and train trips to new places and new ecoregions. To show them great cities, quiet, endless grasslands, massive sequoias, and swimming in rivers, trying to catch fish with their hands.

Unschooling is a form of Homeschooling, where you let the child decide what they are going to learn, based on special interests. It has served my family very well. Even though there were a couple years toward the end of elementary school, where she just wanted to read fact books about science and history, and didn't do much math or English, she is now advanced, because later on, she had special interests in math and English.

It's okay for kids to stare out the window some days, or go outside to collect rocks or watch ants. Those are educational experiences too.

Trust is the hardest thing we can do, especially towards someone smaller and weaker than ourselves. We need to trust our children more, and led them in a whole-istic fashion throughout life. And in this way, they will be open to new experiences, and other ways of life.

100% agree. Well said. I grew up with a generation of parents that practiced what could best described as "skillful neglect" by some standards,...pretty much "free range" children. Unless you had chores to do around the house,...you were outside until dinner,...and with a bike you could be miles away from home, totally unsupervised. The other part,...schools did not have this pressure to do "standardized testing", homework was non-existent until high school, and even then, it wasn't much. We didn't medicate our children to make them behave, and on a rare occasion, a swat on the behind was part of growing up,...even in schools,...and our parents were thankful for it. We played around bees nests and ant hills, we got bruises, scrapes, and poison ivy, we chased groundhogs into their burrows, we hunted for frogs and turtles, and swam in all sorts of water. We built tree houses and underground forts out of old scrap wood. Our parents raised us to leave the house,...and never come back,...life skills. Only 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place got a ribbon,...and if you lost in team sports,...you got frustrated and cried,...and tried harder the next time. The team didn't get a participation award and a trip to get ice cream because they tried hard,...you lost,...no reward. If you got a "C" on your report card,...you were "average",...and for my parents, that was cause for a good tongue lashing,...because we were better than that. We learned about creepy people in white panel vans cruising for children, we learned about crossing streets and highways, we learned about earning and spending money, riding the bus, and getting into fights with other kids,...well before the age of 10.

Now-a-days, between all the fear-based media and "child protective" laws, a kid can hardly be a kid anymore, parents are afraid to let their kid out the front door, and the kids are afraid to leave the house and experience their world, and every kid needs to be coddled into this "every child is special" kind of mindset. No,...every kid is not special,...some are little brats because their parents are afraid to discipline them. It makes for a society of dysfunctional adults,...that I am now teaching at the university. Everything is so "unfair" and "boo-hoo" this and that,...whiney little creatures being fed a daily overdose of social media BS or are hidden away in this virtual reality in front of a screen.

Put away the electronics and entertain yourself with the world around you,...meet some people with different ideas for Pete's sake,...and no, you don't need a "safe space",...get out of your bubble.

Ok,...that was a rant.

 

[Yeshuasdaughter]

100% agree. Well said. I grew up with a generation of parents that practiced what could best described as "skillful neglect" by some standards,...pretty much "free range" children. Unless you had chores to do around the house,...you were outside until dinner,...and with a bike you could be miles away from home, totally unsupervised. The other part,...schools did not have this pressure to do "standardized testing", homework was non-existent until high school, and even then, it wasn't much. We didn't medicate our children to make them behave, and on a rare occasion, a swat on the behind was part of growing up,...even in schools,...and our parents were thankful for it. We played around bees nests and ant hills, we got bruises, scrapes, and poison ivy, we chased groundhogs into their burrows, we hunted for frogs and turtles, and swam in all sorts of water. We built tree houses and underground forts out of old scrap wood. Our parents raised us to leave the house,...and never come back,...life skills. Only 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place got a ribbon,...and if you lost in team sports,...you got frustrated and cried,...and tried harder the next time. The team didn't get a participation award and a trip to get ice cream because they tried hard,...you lost,...no reward. If you got a "C" on your report card,...you were "average",...and for my parents, that was cause for a good tongue lashing,...because we were better than that. We learned about creepy people in white panel vans cruising for children, we learned about crossing streets and highways, we learned about earning and spending money, riding the bus, and getting into fights with other kids,...well before the age of 10.

Now-a-days, between all the fear-based media and "child protective" laws, a kid can hardly be a kid anymore, parents are afraid to let their kid out the front door, and the kids are afraid to leave the house and experience their world, and every kid needs to be coddled into this "every child is special" kind of mindset. No,...every kid is not special,...some are little brats because their parents are afraid to discipline them. It makes for a society of dysfunctional adults,...that I am now teaching at the university. Everything is so "unfair" and "boo-hoo" this and that,...whiney little creatures being fed a daily overdose of social media BS or are hidden away in this virtual reality in front of a screen.

Put away the electronics and entertain yourself with the world around you,...meet some people with different ideas for Pete's sake,...and no, you don't need a "safe space",...get out of your bubble.

Ok,...that was a rant.

Teaching a child to lose with grace, swallow their pride, and then pick themselves up and try harder next time is a life skill too. One of the hardest, in fact.

 

[danjustlovescoffee]

100% agree. Well said. I grew up with a generation of parents that practiced what could best described as "skillful neglect" by some standards,...pretty much "free range" children. Unless you had chores to do around the house,...you were outside until dinner,...and with a bike you could be miles away from home, totally unsupervised. The other part,...schools did not have this pressure to do "standardized testing", homework was non-existent until high school, and even then, it wasn't much. We didn't medicate our children to make them behave, and on a rare occasion, a swat on the behind was part of growing up,...even in schools,...and our parents were thankful for it. We played around bees nests and ant hills, we got bruises, scrapes, and poison ivy, we chased groundhogs into their burrows, we hunted for frogs and turtles, and swam in all sorts of water. We built tree houses and underground forts out of old scrap wood. Our parents raised us to leave the house,...and never come back,...life skills. Only 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place got a ribbon,...and if you lost in team sports,...you got frustrated and cried,...and tried harder the next time. The team didn't get a participation award and a trip to get ice cream because they tried hard,...you lost,...no reward. If you got a "C" on your report card,...you were "average",...and for my parents, that was cause for a good tongue lashing,...because we were better than that. We learned about creepy people in white panel vans cruising for children, we learned about crossing streets and highways, we learned about earning and spending money, riding the bus, and getting into fights with other kids,...well before the age of 10.

Now-a-days, between all the fear-based media and "child protective" laws, a kid can hardly be a kid anymore, parents are afraid to let their kid out the front door, and the kids are afraid to leave the house and experience their world, and every kid needs to be coddled into this "every child is special" kind of mindset. No,...every kid is not special,...some are little brats because their parents are afraid to discipline them. It makes for a society of dysfunctional adults,...that I am now teaching at the university. Everything is so "unfair" and "boo-hoo" this and that,...whiney little creatures being fed a daily overdose of social media BS or are hidden away in this virtual reality in front of a screen.

Put away the electronics and entertain yourself with the world around you,...meet some people with different ideas for Pete's sake,...and no, you don't need a "safe space",...get out of your bubble.

Ok,...that was a rant.

How will that take away all the ASD difficulties? I am asking because I am not sure what you just describe will make everything easy for the ASD kid. Issues with motor skills, social skills and so on will have to be dealt with even if you have a good childhood.
Or perhaps I am wrong?

 

[Gracey]

How will that take away all the ASD difficulties? I am asking because I am not sure what you just describe will make everything easy for the ASD kid. Issues with motor skills, social skills and so on will have to be dealt with even if you have a good childhood.
Or perhaps I am wrong?

It wont remove 'difficulties'.
It provides opportunity to learn.
Which in turn may change an outcome or habit.

In terms of making everything 'easy for the ASD kid'
Not going to happen.
Instead it may make coping easier rather than easy.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

As an ASD kid,...who grew up not knowing I was an ASD kid,...with parents and doctors who didn't know. I was not treated any differently than anyone else. I was just clueless as to my experience being different from anyone else's, so I never complained. It wouldn't be until some 30-40 years later that I started questioning things,..."So, you don't have X, Y, and Z? I thought everyone did?" I guess I am proud of myself for turning out as well as I did despite all the difficulties I had, that others, apparently didn't. On the other hand, I think not being aware, forced me to adapt and overcome,...as I have a very intense competitive streak in me. I was never going to LET someone be better than me,...not without a fight.

At any rate, as I said in my first post, every person with an ASD is very much the individual, so my experience is my own.

 

[Luca]

I believe that each child is a unique individual, and should be raised holistically.

The school system is flawed in that respect.

I believe in following a child's cues, that it is in their nature to want to learn.

I believe in homebirth, elimination communication, extended breastfeeding, teaching empathy, speaking with an adult voice to babies, reading to children from the time they're newborns- sounding out the words, and using mealtime as math time (if I have three apples and I take away one...).

I believe there is no such thing as bad weather- only bad clothing. That it is our duty to take children outside to play and explore nature in all weather.

I believe in trying your hardest (and yes it's an especially hard one) to not raise your voice, to not insult or humiliate a child.

I believe it's our duty to take children of all ages to meet people of all cultures and backgrounds. To have them eat at the homeless feed, not just volunteer there, to take them to different religious temples and churches. Take them to First Baptist and to Gay Pride. To the rodeo and the powwow. To visit colleges, and to sneak into houses on construction yards, to teach them how homes are built. They need to know how to access social services, and how to work hard to rise to the top of whatever they want to be in life.

You can't be prejudiced against something you have been a part of.

And most importantly, they need to know that although there are rules to be followed, that they are loved, regardless of whomever they become, and whatever they do.

We need to take them on bus and train trips to new places and new ecoregions. To show them great cities, quiet, endless grasslands, massive sequoias, and swimming in rivers, trying to catch fish with their hands.

Unschooling is a form of Homeschooling, where you let the child decide what they are going to learn, based on special interests. It has served my family very well. Even though there were a couple years toward the end of elementary school, where she just wanted to read fact books about science and history, and didn't do much math or English, she is now advanced, because later on, she had special interests in math and English.

It's okay for kids to stare out the window some days, or go outside to collect rocks or watch ants. Those are educational experiences too.

Trust is the hardest thing we can do, especially towards someone smaller and weaker than ourselves. We need to trust our children more, and led them in a whole-istic fashion throughout life. And in this way, they will be open to new experiences, and other ways of life.

Yes!!! Oh my gosh, you really hit the nail on the head with this post... thank you!! I was trying to come up with a way to say some of this stuff but it was really hard with my scrambled brain lol.
I've mentioned before that I was adopted twice, and the second set of parents who adopted me as a teen (who I consider my "real" parents now) raised me like this and it worked wonders! This is how I'll raise my kids if I ever have any... totally agree with everything you said here!!
I also go to a Holistic clinic for therapy and psychiatry... totally different approach to all the not-so-great therapists and psychiatrists I've had in the past. A lot of their therapy methods are based on meditation and sensory stuff. Really works for me!

 

[danjustlovescoffee]

I also go to a Holistic clinic for therapy and psychiatry...

Holistic clinic?

 

[Gracey]

A holistic approach looks toward wellness, not illness.

If a client is concerned about gait, for example, then it's not the end of the world.
They might look at ways of improving gait together with working on being less self conscious and more accepting of gait.
Looking at what is still possible, despite gait.
Working with the client as a whole person, not just a specific focus on gait.

That make any sense?

 

[Luca]

Holistic clinic?

This is a basic rundown of what Holistic therapy is... some of it I have trouble agreeing with, but my therapist also uses a lot of CBT methods. The things that I really benefit from are meditation and relaxation. Also anything having to do with touch/sensory stuff is really helpful for me.
My psychiatrist does prescribe meds tho... not sure if they all do this.
There are actually a lot of clinics like this near me but I chose the one I did because they incorporate a lot of more traditional therapies as well as the more Holistic stuff. I just like the mindset of this one better.
Maybe it was incorrect to label the entire clinic as "Holistic" but that's one of the major things they advertise.
Anyone is welcome to set me straight if I used the definition incorrectly Just do it politely please

 

[Gracey]

This is a basic rundown of what Holistic therapy is... some of it I have trouble agreeing with, but my therapist also uses a lot of CBT methods. The things that I really benefit from are meditation and relaxation. Also anything having to do with touch/sensory stuff is really helpful for me.
My psychiatrist does prescribe meds tho... not sure if they all do this.
There are actually a lot of clinics like this near me but I chose the one I did because they incorporate a lot of more traditional therapies as well as the more Holistic stuff. I just like the mindset of this one better.
Maybe it was incorrect to label the entire clinic as "Holistic" but that's one of the major things they advertise.
Anyone is welcome to set me straight if I used the definition incorrectly Just do it politely please
View attachment 71055

It reads like a lovely clinic


I've found, over the years, some CBT, together with breathing techniques, calming techniques, an understanding of what's happening to me, laughter, some Tai chi & walking exercise has done more for my wellbeing than meds alone ever did.

 

[Luca]

It reads like a lovely clinic


I've found, over the years, some CBT, together with breathing techniques, calming techniques, an understanding of what's happening to me, laughter, some Tai chi & walking exercise has done more for my wellbeing than meds alone ever did.

Yes I totally agree! That's what most of my therapy and my treatment recommendations consist of. Meds can be helpful too (meds mostly just address my BPD-related issues and extreme anxiety) but I would rather do things the natural way... I can't exercise as much as I would like to, but going for a walk or just sitting outside by the ocean or in a park, or doing some artwork and petting some animals, and focusing on relaxing and mindfulness is great! I'm really happy to hear that it works for you too! I think it's amazing if therapists and psychiatrists have an understanding of these things too instead of just treating everyone the "traditional" way with lots of meds and hardcore behavior modification therapy and over-diagnosing.

 

[Gracey]

At the moment I think of it like taking a car to a mechanic.

Suppose they 'diagnosed' new brake pads required.
Ordinarily some would just fit the pads. Job done. Thank you. See you in another 40,000 miles. Goodbye.


Just suppose that mechanic had a quick look at the brake shoes, discs, tyre treads, checked wheel balance & whether or not the vehicle pulled to one side when braking, topped up tyre pressure & brake fluid.

- Not directly related to brake pads,
but keeping the braking system in 'good health'

So, there's either just fitting the pads
or
maintaining the whole system.

(Works for me anyway )

 

[Suzette]

How will that take away all the ASD difficulties? I am asking because I am not sure what you just describe will make everything easy for the ASD kid. Issues with motor skills, social skills and so on will have to be dealt with even if you have a good childhood.
Or perhaps I am wrong?

I was a "free range" kid too and endeavored to raise my son that way, with some modern tweaks.

My son was born with some mild deformaties that impacted his motor skills. We did not force him to try to be like other kids, and we did not focus on his differences as "special".

For gross motor skills we let him choose what he wanted to do. He didn't like to run but found he had an interest in bmx bike tricks and swimming.
In school we all learned how to give him the best chance to suceed such as taking tests verbally or with a keyboard instead of writing.

None of this stuff was "easy" for my son. He still had to practice and learn just like anyone else. But we focused on how his actual skill ability could be developed to improve his chance to suceed.

Does that help?

 

[danjustlovescoffee]

They might look at ways of improving gait together with working on being less self conscious and more accepting of gait.

being less self conscious? How does that help you with gait or motor skills in general?

 

[Suzette]

being less self conscious? How does that help you with gait or motor skills in general?

For myself, being less self conscious means learning how not to take criticism personally and being self accepting. Nothing changes, you are what you are and that's ok! You only change motor skills or gait if improving those things lets you do more of what you want, not because others say "it is not good enough".

 

[Gracey]

being less self conscious? How does that help you with gait or motor skills in general?

Being less afraid of how others might judge gait and any differences between theirs and ours works it's way toward acceptance of self as a whole person,

Not just a somebody with a different gait and motor skills.
We are infinitely more than a gait and motor skills.

I think only surgery removes what we're born with.
we can accept and adapt though.