Higher empathy for animals?

[pjcnet]

I also have a lot of empathy for animals and have been a vegetarian since 1996 because we can stay healthy without meat. I don't believe in causing animals unnecessary suffering that can be avoided, sadly however nature itself is extremely cruel and there's a huge amount of suffering with survival of the fittest and the food chain. I love my cat, however all cats including big cats are born carnivores which means they need to eat meat to stay healthy and survive, this means that in nature they have to hunt and kill other animals and they therefore cause suffering. For instance a lion kills and eats the calf of a mother that has done everything to protect it and then feels grief, they also constantly live in fear of predators like lions. Many people see nature as beautiful and perfect, but the suffering in nature is something I simply I can't get my head around, in many ways it's design is evil in itself.

 

[DuckRabbit]

Has anyone seen the 2017 film 'Call Me By Your Name'? I enjoyed all aspects of this film except for the scene when the servant Anchise comes past to show Elio the still-live fish he's just caught. The fish is struggling to breathe and is opening and closing its mouth. Elio thoroughly enjoys the spectacle - popping his own mouth in delighted mimicry of the dying fish. Not a thought in his cherubic little head that a live creature is suffering before his eyes. After Anchise walks off to show the catch to Mafalda, Elio snaps back into his music transcribing and his obsession with Oliver - the fish just a momentary diversion - never to think of the fish again. It's just the natural order of things - unquestionable. This mind-set is captured well by Ernest Becker:

"And if we say that the average man narrows down “just about right”, we have to ask who this average man is. He may avoid the psychiatric clinic, but somebody around has to pay for it. We are reminded of those Roman portrait-busts that stuff our museums: to live in this tight-lipped style as an average good citizen must have created some daily hell. Of course we are not talking only about daily pettinesses and the small sadisms that are practised on family and friends. Even if the average man lives in a kind of obliviousness of anxiety, it is because he has erected a massive wall of repressions to hide the problem of life and death. His anality may protect him, but all through history it is the “normal, average men” who, like locusts, have laid waste to the world in order to forget themselves."

If you're going to catch and kill a fish to eat, at least don't gloat over it and mock its dying moments. The least you can do is show reverence for the animal and be grateful to it for giving up its life for your palate and stomach (not that it had a choice).

P.S. I didn't see a "No animals were harmed in the making of this film" notice.

 

[DuckRabbit]

I also have a lot of empathy for animals and have been a vegetarian since 1996 because we can stay healthy without meat. I don't believe in causing animals unnecessary suffering that can be avoided, sadly however nature itself is extremely cruel and there's a huge amount of suffering with survival of the fittest and the food chain. I love my cat, however all cats including big cats are born carnivores which means they need to eat meat to stay healthy and survive, this means that in nature they have to hunt and kill other animals and they therefore cause suffering. For instance a lion kills and eats the calf of a mother that has done everything to protect it and then feels grief, they also constantly live in fear of predators like lions. Many people see nature as beautiful and perfect, but the suffering in nature is something I simply I can't get my head around, in many ways it's design is evil in itself.

I agree animals shouldn't be idealised - but at the same time animals have instincts, whereas we have bank accounts and earning capacity. Somehow I can accept animal-on-animal cruelty more than I can accept human-on-animal cruelty. That said, I avoid watching animal-on-animal violence as I feel too much for the underdog, even while appreciating that the predator probably has a nest if chicks or cubs to feed. I agree we can stay healthy without meat.

 

[Progster]

I can't stand to see animals suffer and it makes me feel angry to see them abused. It's like a betrayal - domesticated animals come to us for protection, they rely on us, they are at our mercy, and then some people abuse them in ways that are cruel and unacceptable. Temple Grandin says, "nature is cruel, but we don't have to be". In nature, animals have either a neutral (not in competition), or a predator - prey relationship with each other, but with people, the relationship is different, because we farm them or keep them as pets. They develop a relationship and come to trust us. Because of this, it bothers me a lot when animals suffer at the hands of unscrupulous people.

 

[clg114]

I am a gun guy. Most people would probably be alarmed at the amount firearms and ammunition that I own. Here in Idaho there is a big gun and hunting culture. But I do not hunt. I do not have a problem with people who hunt and consume what they kill. But I just can not kill animals. It bothers me to think about killing any living creature and it really bothers me to see people kill animals, just to be killing them. That is just sick.

I think that feeling this way is probably a Aspie thing. My youngest son, who is a Aspie, feels the same way. My two older sons hunt and take their kids hunting. This does not bother me too much because they hunt safely and eat what they kill.

 

[pjcnet]

I am a gun guy. Most people would probably be alarmed at the amount firearms and ammunition that I own. Here in Idaho there is a big gun and hunting culture. But I do not hunt. I do not have a problem with people who hunt and consume what they kill. But I just can not kill animals. It bothers me to think about killing any living creature and it really bothers to see people kill animals, just to be killing them. That is just sick.

I think that feeling this way is probably a Aspie thing. My youngest son, who is a Aspie, feels the same way. My two older sons hunt and take their kids hunting. This does not bother me too much because they hunt safely and eat what they kill.

A big cat has more right to hunt safely and even kill human beings for food than people have to hunt animals because big cats can't survive without killing, they may not see a human being as any different to any other prey and in many ways we aren't any different because all animals have an equal right to live and want to survive as much as we do, but we have a choice and can live perfectly healthy lives without killing. There's no need for humans to hunt and I'm sorry, but it shows a great lack of compassion and empathy for animals even if they are consumed. It's good that you don't hunt and perhaps there is a greater proportion of people on the autistic spectrum that show a greater empathy for animals, we are far from the only ones however, for instance I'm sure not all vegetarians and vegans, or people in animal rights groups are autistic.

 

[Progster]

My partner was brought up in a culture where hunting is the norm and accepted, and like most young men in this area, had a gun and went out to hunt. One day, he shot a bird. The bird came down, but was still alive. It had a single shot pellet to its eye, and blood was coming out of the eye. He was so shocked, and upset by what he had done, that he never hunted again.

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." We don't need to hunt for food, people have evolved to have farms and supermarkets. If every person went out to hunt for food, then there would literally be nothing left, because there is not enough wildlife to support the massive human population. That would lead to mass extinction. Unlike wild animals who just have instinct and have no other choice, people have intelligence, and can use that intelligence to find other solutions to the problem of finding enough food and providing for their family. People have a choice.

 

[Theta.G]

It's interesting.
Animals can't hide their love and some species love unconditionally. Whereas humans these days do not love unconditionally outside of family. And many of them have become adepts in faking love. Many even no longer know how.
It's sad
We could learn a lot from the animal kingdom and become more unconditional lovers but doing that solo (without a group or friends doing the same) leaves you open to getting taken advantage of. Like a piece of steak thrown in a pit of wolves... Or... i guess one could love unconditionally in this environment if they can learn how to hide it well.

 

[pjcnet]

I’ve always had higher empathy towards animals; dogs especially.

I was watching a rescue shelter for dogs on YouTube recently and one of the dogs was literally screaming and whining when a human went near him. Within time, it warmed up to the human and gradually walked over to her for a hug. I was bawling my eyes out so hard even though I had a good day and couldn’t stop for about an hour after watching it. Don’t think I can watch it again.

I’m crying again now even just talking about it, but not as much.

An interesting question is did we domesticate dogs or did they domesticate us? Here is an interesting article from someone who believes the latter and it explains why:

Opinion: We Didn’t Domesticate Dogs. They Domesticated Us.

Edit:
PS: Not all animal "shelters" are the best, for instance some kill healthy animals and I won't use the words "humanely euthanize" or "cull" because those are words that are often used to make people feel better about killing in this situation, the word is "kill" when you take the life of a healthy animal, it's only "humanely euthanized" if the animal was suffering and would have died anyway in my opinion. For instance sometimes dogs are killed in so called "shelters" because they don't pass behaviour tests, even though they could be retrained if given patience and love, plus the reason they may be like that is because of abuse, and sometimes even animals they simply can't re-home for sometime are killed to make room for others. What sort of "rescue" is that?

 

[the_tortoise]

I think my empathy for human and non-human animals is identical.

PS: Not all animal "shelters" are the best, for instance some kill healthy animals and I won't use the words "humanely euthanize" or "cull" because those are words that are often used to make people feel better about killing in this situation, the word is "kill" when you take the life of a healthy animal, it's only "humanely euthanized" if the animal was suffering and would have died anyway in my opinion. For instance sometimes dogs are killed in so called "shelters" because they don't pass behaviour tests, even though they could be retrained if given patience and love, plus the reason they may be like that is because of abuse, and sometimes even animals they simply can't re-home for sometime are killed to make room for others. What sort of "rescue" is that?

It baffles me that anyone can think a dog/cat/other creature would be better off dead than feral / living as a stray. I suspect that the vast majority of dogs/cats/other creatures would strongly disagree (would choose life without a human family, living feral or as a stray).....

 

[Thinx]

I think it's done for the convenience of humans not for the animals, it's expedient. In the NT dominated world. I definitely get on better with animals but could be because their empathy for me is better than human empathy for me?

 

[Bismarck]

I'm the same way. A chihuahua isn't going to kill you for eating the last grilled cheese.

Here in Florida I wouldn't be surprised if someone was ever killed over a slightly undercooked McDonalds burger.

 

[tlc]

Animals don't lie to you. They don't try to deceive you. They don't have hidden agendas.

People are another matter.

This is my EXACT reasoning as to why I do great with mechanical things, but will never understand people.

P.S. I cry every time in 'Neverending Story' when Artax the horse gets stuck in the mud and succumbs:

If anything my heartbreak over this scene has intensified as I've aged.

It's been like 30 years, that scene is the ONLY thing I remember about that movie. Yes it was sad.

I used to be an animal person, at least when I was a kid, maybe till mid 20s. We had dogs, cats, parakeets, doves, lots more. The birds drove me nuts however. We also had the room for it. I rescued a baby cedar waxwing stuck in a roll of fence and nursed it all night, dug worms for it, pulled stuffing from a hole in the couch to keep it warm. Bawled when it died, bawled harder as I dug its grave the next day. Still remember the commercial and song that was playing when it gave its last oomph of energy. Had a cocker spaniel that lived from before I started kindergarten to after I graduated college, loved him dearly. When I moved in my own house I got a cat. He was fun, he loved me, I still think about him a lot. My ex sent him outside, pretty sure something in the woods got him.

Then I got attacked by a pit bull that liked everyone there but me. One of the residents said have him sniff you and he did, then he lunged for my throat and took a chunk out of my chest.

Then my ex started going overboard against my will. At one point it was 5 cats (2 of which peed everywhere), 2 rats, several hamsters, guinea pigs, mice. In a 1000 sq ft house with 5 people. This was far over what my body could handle. Even with inhalers, I could barely get enough breath to climb stairs or read my kid a story. Animal smells would make me sick and still do. The barking dogs in the neighborhood would grate on me. A small dog shaking violently, or a large one knocking things over with its tail, is instant stress. The cleaning, responsibilities, expense of the animals was difficult especially considering I was doing very bad financially. She just took a good thing and ruined it forever. At least she gave away the animals when she left. Now I'm allergic to cats, too bad because I like them. I love to watch animals in nature. But as for pets and farm animals, no more, I've had my fill for the rest of my life.

I don't hate animals, and I do feel bad when I see them abused on the commercials or on the news. But I do think the pendulum is going too far. I believe animals have their place. I don't believe they should be in a restaurant, shaking hair and drool onto my food. Or in a hospital ER, to people with pet allergies that might just put them over the edge when they're already clinging to life, not to mention other diseases. Or on your lap when driving, same as putting a child on your lap when driving. Just my opinion.

 

[Pariah Dog]

I would say I have a very high empathy level for animals. Animals are innocent. People are not, people have free will. People have motives. Sometimes people just deserve what's coming to them based on their actions.

I read today about a bird species that went extinct in Hawaii in the 1980s I think it was, and that there is one known recording of it's call. It was the call of the last known mall calling for a mate that would never come. That put a black cloud over the heart which I don't get from hearing about human misfortune normally.

That said I am a realist about animals place in the world. I love animals, but I still eat animals. Animals eat other animals, why should it be wrong for me to do it? If an animal spends its life in good living conditions and it put down quickly and humanely then I have no problem with that. I also blieve it is an absolute crime against nature the way animals are factory farmed in the USA and elsewhere and have to live in holocaust conditions. That needs to be stopped. I have not seen any political will anywhere at all to do anything about it. Not even from the parties that claim to be environmental supporters. Watching factory farm videos make me literally ill.

 

[RainbowAura]

I definitely feel more compassion fro animals as they have no knowledge...(in the human sense) of right and wrong and don’t manipulate you in evil ways..they are just animals..helpless. Human beings are not

 

[pjcnet]

That said I am a realist about animals place in the world. I love animals, but I still eat animals. Animals eat other animals, why should it be wrong for me to do it? If an animal spends its life in good living conditions and it put down quickly and humanely then I have no problem with that. I also blieve it is an absolute crime against nature the way animals are factory farmed in the USA and elsewhere and have to live in holocaust conditions. That needs to be stopped. I have not seen any political will anywhere at all to do anything about it. Not even from the parties that claim to be environmental supporters. Watching factory farm videos make me literally ill.

The difference is we don't have to eat animals, we have a choice as omnivores with the intelligence to override out instincts if we want to, also if we all became vegetarians there would be much more food to go around and it would be much better for the environment, plus a balanced vegetarian diet is usually much healthier. Beef cows are for instance awful for the environment and you would get enough food to feed many times the people if you used the same space for crops instead, they're extremely inefficient to say the least.

I agree that it's a crime against nature the way animals are factory farmed and I believe all animals have the same right to live and be treated well as we do, but even animals that are supposed to be living in better conditions usually don't exactly get a good life, for instance people get the image of hens roaming freely around a farm house when they say "free range", but it's nothing like that, there's still thousands of them cooped up in overcrowded large pens which is only a little better than a battery farm of caged hens. The vast majority of animals kept on traditional farms are NOT kept in good living conditions and many are NOT slaughtered and killed in what most people would consider a "humane" way either. It can often go wrong unchecked and no-one usually cares less, it can commonly leave conscious animals literally being cut up alive in agonising and unimaginable pain, not that killing any healthy animal is in my opinion in the slightest bit humane in the first place even if it was painless and with the minimum of stress. The only time it's truly humane to take an animal's life is if it's in severe pain where it's going to die anyway and there's nothing more that can be done to help it, this is freeing it from it's suffering.

If watching factory farm videos makes you literally ill, stop supporting them and become a vegetarian.

 

[Anthracite]

I've always cared more about species other than H. sapiens, I despise anthrocentrism (thinking humans are better/more important/special than everything else). I am a hippie liberal though so I don't actually hate (most) humans.

 

[WereBear]

I like my cats because they don't care if my hair is combed or what kind of car I drive or what I do for a living. They judge according to one simple criteria: how I treat them.

That's all I ask. If I get it more reliably from pets than I do from people: whose fault is that?

 

[Mary Anne]

Am I the only one?

I almost feel uncomfortable admitting it haha. I DO have empathy and care a lot for humans too, especially innocent ones like children. My empathy for animals though can be nearly unbearable. I would be full of **** if I tried to say that my empathy for animals is much, much stronger. I can logically understand why it should be higher for humans but it just isn't. Part of this could be desensitization? Although I've seen and known a lot of terrible things happening to animals and can barely handle it. I can see on a TV show a human being suffering and it's awful (although if it was a REAL human and not just fiction it would bother me A LOT more) but I can't even see fake depictions of animals hurt or sad. I struggled watching Temple Grandin's movie and watching the cows be stressed out. I definitely have a lot of empathy for humans too but my empathy for animals is a lot stronger and more intense. I have no idea why. It's always been this way. I've loved animals since I can even remember and grew up with animals around my whole life.

Can anyone else relate?

Me too! Animals before humans! I had to force myself to work with humans over many decades. It’s gotten much easier, but I will take animal companionship over humans any day! Compassion for ALL animals is extremely strong, even insects, snakes, bats, spiders, and other creatures most of society hates.

 

[DuckRabbit]

P.S. I especially agree with all the animal references here. I sometimes feel ASC individuals are animal souls in human form, the way they so readily identify with animals and often prefer them to humans.

I wonder if the philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) was on the spectrum:

"His closest relationships are now with a succession of poodles, who he feels have a gentleness and humility humans lack: 'The sight of any animal immediately gives me pleasure and gladdens my heart.' He lavishes affection on these poodles, addressing them as 'Sir', and takes a keen interest in animal welfare: 'The highly intelligent dog, man's truest and most faithful friend, is put on a chain by him! Never do I see such a dog without feelings of the deepest sympathy for him and of profound indignation against his master. I think with satisfaction of a case, reported some years ago in 'The Times', where Lord X kept a large dog on a chain. One day as he was walking through the yard, he took it into his head to go and pat the dog, whereas the animal tore his arm open from top to bottom, and quite right, too! What he meant by this was: "You are not my master, but my devil who makes a hell of my brief existence!" May this happen to all who chain up dogs."
~ Alain de Botton, 'The Consolations of Philosophy' (2000), p. 177-178. [bold added by me]

Although I would not want to suggest that only ASC individuals feel empathy for animals, it sometimes seems that way from threads like this and this:
You know you are autistic if -
Cognitively, socially and emotionally, it makes sense for ASC individuals to feel more affinity for animals than for other people who come laden with social expectations, which animals don't. But this doesn't necessarily mean that NTs are without affinity for animals in addition.

Would love to hear if from any ASC individuals who do not feel such affinity for animals as described here for Schopenhauer.