Higher empathy for animals?

[Owliet]

Yeah when we take a step back and look closely at this planet we live on, it's incredibly rough. It's violent and hard. And that has always been normal here. Again, not saying it's great or that I think it's wonderful or anything like that. It's just facts, we live on a very rough planet. Especially if you have empathy and feel bad for animals and such, that makes it even rougher. I have a lot of empathy for animals so this is a rough place for me.

I’m one of those people who will cry during the “save the dog/cat” adverts that ask you to donate for more money. I also cry during documentaries but I also know how rough it can be and it’s part of the circle of life (yes, I did put a lion king quote in). I think what’s important is the environmental approaches to safe guarding animals that are being taken. And I disagree with animals being hunted for as trophy and sport (poaching), like recently here the Swiss lynx is making a comeback (that’s good) but some people think that equals to hunting them, so the environmental government has now issued an action that prevents poaching of them (Already prosecuted someone too which is nice). And In Spain they have a really cool little highway for lynx and other animals to cross which I really wish we’d do here although we do have the caution signs during toad and frog seasons.

 

[Forest Cat]

We are all animals at the end of the day and if you take away the modern conveniences and resources that many humans have acquired, I think we would pretty quickly resort to the wild ways of our caveman ancestors.

People panic when facebook stops working for half an hour. Or when the wifi is out. Imagine what happens if we lose electricity and food supply and all those things we actually need everyday to live. Lord of the flies, just much more intense.

 

[Owliet]

We are all animals at the end of the day and if you take away the modern conveniences and resources that many humans have acquired, I think we would pretty quickly resort to the wild ways of our caveman ancestors.

definitely seen that when people are on a night out or during football matches.=P

 

[330]

I am Vegetarian due to personal health and genetic factors . I love animals , and I love people. And I feel better .

When I was a meat eater . I have hunted for my own food with the process of archery. This puts you in a very unique perspective with the life you have taken for substance. It makes you understand something a person in the grocery store will never comprehend, and really can’t be explained by words .

But also I believe anyone can choose how ever they want to get nutrients meat or vegetables or both . It is really irrelevant to my existence.

I will never tell anyone how to eat . But if somebody’s interested in the science and history of humans eating meat , they would be really surprised and shocked. And I am always willing to share information ,based on historical data .

 

[Luca]

I think that it is important to know that life isn’t like a Disney movie. In nature, the shark will always need to eat a seal, even if you watch it struggle and feel sad that it’s died, it is one of those things in life. You cant ask a shark to go vegetarian or vegan. Sid will always need to eat (living) worms And whilst he can eat vegetables and fruit, he’s an omnivore that needs both. Primates (like chimpanzees) are often seen in the wild hunting smaller primates for meat because they need it in their died. That’s the food chain. And some people even just resort to eating each other without being stuck on an island.

I have actually used this exact counterpoint when I was baited into arguments with people who were trying to convince me to be vegan. Good points by you, Rodafina, and Forest Cat.
Animals hunt and kill for food, and humans are actually *animals*, as much as people don't like to admit it lol
But diet is complete choice for most people and I will respect how they want to eat. I'm not going to tell a vegan to stop being vegan, just like I'm not going to tell an omnivore to stop eating meat. It's totally up to them.

I couldn't be vegan or vegetarian even if I wanted to because my body needs a specific type of diet to function properly. Some people have food allergies too. I knew someone who was allergic to a lot of plant-based foods. Gluten allergies and lactose intolerance are also relatively common.
There are a lot of really good plant-based and vegetarian foods that I do really like, but eating them exclusively would probably mess up my health.

When I was struggling with anorexia, I ate mostly plant-based foods because of the lack of calories, and I was very undernourished. If someone is going to maintain a vegan or vegetarian diet they need to figure out how to make it sustainable so they can get the correct intake of nutrients and vitamins for their body. It's not cut-and-dry, easy for everyone.

 

[Forest Cat]

And In Spain they have a really cool little highway for lynx and other animals to cross which I really wish we’d do here although we do have the caution signs during toad and frog seasons.

Luckily animal welfare is taken pretty seriously here, you can end up in prison if you abuse your dog for example. We have a department called Animal Police. And we do the same thing they do in Spain, build animal bridges over roads and highways. There's one not far from where I live, there's a fence along side the road to stop moose and a moose bridge over the road. It's a known spot for moose traffic but it also helps deer and everything else. And when they build roads and other things, they always check first what is living in the area and if something will be disturbed.

 

[Swansong]

This is going to be kind of a critical and detached interpretation as to why this happens but hey this is an autism forum so that should be par the course.

The reason why so many people become so deeply attached towards (mostly pet) animals even above their fellow humans is because pets essentially work as living toys that provide reliable emotional satisfaction in exchange for relatively little, which is in my opinion what ultimately many people actually want from other living beings, while even in the best case scenario other humans are infinitely more complex, unreliable and human relationships almost always require you to give and put in far more effort than any pet ever would.

So, some people get extremely attached and become very empathetic towards pets because pets give them what they want in exchange for things they're able to relatively easily give, meanwhile every single human is looking out for themselves to some degree or another, all of us have complex needs that would like to be met by others so it's extremely rare to find another human that can be expected to give so much away in exchange for very little (I suppose that's at least part of the reason why so many people are attracted to relationships with power imbalances).

I realize that's perhaps a cynical view but I do believe it to be accurate and if that makes someone value pet animals more than their fellow humans, so be it. I just wish more people were self aware enough to realize why they truly feel that way, not because their pets are inherently noble and good creatures (according to our understanding of such words) but because they're domesticated creatures that have evolved around being suitable companions because we give them shelter and food and because they're not nearly as complex as human beings and therefore do not have the same complex needs that would be difficult to fulfill.

 

[Luca]

Luckily animal welfare is taken pretty seriously here, you can end up in prison if you abuse your dog for example. We have a department called Animal Police. And we do the same thing they do in Spain, build animal bridges over roads and highways. There's one not far from where I live, there's a fence along side the road to stop moose and a moose bridge over the road.

When people have yelled or screamed at or kicked my dogs because they were doing something they didn't like or they were just "afraid" of them and were "defending themselves," I got pretty aggressive right back, at least verbally. And the worst part is, I can get in more trouble for retaliating verbally than they can for physically assaulting my dogs!

 

[Rodafina]

This is going to be kind of a critical and detached interpretation as to why this happens but hey this is an autism forum so that should be par the course.

The reason why so many people become so deeply attached towards (mostly pet) animals even above their fellow humans is because pets essentially work as living toys that provide reliable emotional satisfaction in exchange for relatively little, which is in my opinion what ultimately many people actually want from other living beings, while even in the best case scenario other humans are infinitely more complex, unreliable and human relationships almost always require you to give and put in far more effort than any pet ever would.

So, some people get extremely attached and become very empathetic towards pets because pets give them what they want in exchange for things they're able to relatively easily give, meanwhile every single human is looking out for themselves to some degree or another, all of us have complex needs that would like to be met by others so it's extremely rare to find another human that can be expected to give so much away in exchange for very little (I suppose that's at least part of the reason why so many people are attracted to relationships with power imbalances).

I realize that's perhaps a cynical view but I do believe it to be accurate and if that makes someone value pet animals more than their fellow humans, so be it. I just wish more people were self aware enough to realize why they truly feel that way, not because their pets are inherently noble and good creatures (according to our understanding of such words) but because they're domesticated creatures that have evolved around being suitable companions because we give them shelter and food and because they're not nearly as complex as human beings and therefore do not have the same complex needs that would be difficult to fulfill.

A symbiotic relationship. It’s very interesting to consider wolves protecting caveman camps in exchange for food. There are parts of canine and human biology that make them suited to form symbiotic relationships together.

My only argument would be that they are inherently good creatures because they are creatures of the world. They do not form the same judgments and hatred that humans can and in my view that makes them good.

 

[Rodafina]

When people have yelled or screamed at or kicked my dogs because they were doing something they didn't like or they were just "afraid" of them and were "defending themselves," I got pretty aggressive right back, at least verbally. And the worst part is, I can get in more trouble for retaliating verbally than they can for physically assaulting my dogs!

Rotten people! Who kicks dogs? jeez.

 

[Forest Cat]

This is going to be kind of a critical and detached interpretation as to why this happens but hey this is an autism forum so that should be par the course.

The reason why so many people become so deeply attached towards (mostly pet) animals even above their fellow humans is because pets essentially work as living toys that provide reliable emotional satisfaction in exchange for relatively little, which is in my opinion what ultimately many people actually want from other living beings, while even in the best case scenario other humans are infinitely more complex, unreliable and human relationships almost always require you to give and put in far more effort than any pet ever would.

You should have met my dog and cats. I put so much effort into making sure they were/are happy and ok. Sometimes at a big cost for myself, emotionally and financially. Some would say I put too much into it, because they are "just animals". But they are not "just animals" for me. There is no way I will ever look at them as a type of living toys.

 

[Luca]

Rotten people! Who kicks dogs? jeez.

I'm sure I have posted a couple of times about people claiming my dogs were "attacking" them (or their kids or their dogs) when they weren't, and using really actually abusive methods to get them to go away (hitting, kicking, throwing objects, screaming, physically intimidating them.)
The same people who hit and kick dogs and cats are probably going home and hitting and kicking their kids or spouses too.

 

[330]

When people have yelled or screamed at or kicked my dogs because they were doing something they didn't like or they were just "afraid" of them and were "defending themselves," I got pretty aggressive right back, at least verbally. And the worst part is, I can get in more trouble for retaliating verbally than they can for physically assaulting my dogs!

That is crazy , yes the thought police are the first to punish verbal expression, and then in turn are very violent . Gets very confusing for me

 

[Luca]

You should have met my dog and cats. I put so much effort into making sure they were/are happy and ok. Sometimes at a big cost for myself, emotionally and financially. Some would say I put too much into it, because they are "just animals". But they are not "just animals" for me. There is no way I will ever look at them as a type of living toys.

I'm the same way. People always tell me I spend too much time and money on my dogs.
But I truly, honestly do just love them that much. If I have to eat peanut butter and celery for a week so I can afford a bag of dog food and a $2000 vet bill, so be it.
If people think that makes me crazy, they have never truly loved an animal.

 

[Owliet]

I am Vegetarian due to personal health and genetic factors . I love animals , and I love people. And I feel better .

When I was a meat eater . I have hunted for my own food with the process of archery. This puts you in a very unique perspective with the life you have taken for substance. It makes you understand something a person in the grocery store will never comprehend, and really can’t be explained by words .

But also I believe anyone can choose how ever they want to get nutrients meat or vegetables or both . It is really irrelevant to my existence.

I will never tell anyone how to eat . But if somebody’s interested in the science and history of humans eating meat , they would be really surprised and shocked. And I am always willing to share information ,based on historical data .

The implications that some of our earlier ancestors like Neanderthals practiced cannibalism (see El Sidron cave in Spain) is evident with the butcher marks and the cracking of the bones to get to the marrow although there’s debate if they actually did this. Its quite interesting anyway.

When people have yelled or screamed at or kicked my dogs because they were doing something they didn't like or they were just "afraid" of them and were "defending themselves," I got pretty aggressive right back, at least verbally. And the worst part is, I can get in more trouble for retaliating verbally than they can for physically assaulting my dogs!

I dont get why people do that. Same for those who dont like cats.

It’s very interesting to consider wolves protecting caveman camps in exchange for food. There are parts of canine and human biology that make them suited to form symbiotic relationships together.

Cats also have a symbiotic relationship that dates a lot earlier than people think.=D

You should have met my dog and cats. I put so much effort into making sure they were/are happy and ok. Sometimes at a big cost for myself, emotionally and financially. Some would say I put too much into it, because they are "just animals". But they are not "just animals" for me. There is no way I will ever look at them as a type of living toys.

Same for my cats. They arent toys. Or just animals. They‘re little people with their own views and opinions and things they do and what they like. I put too much into them and everything they do, they arent only animals for me.

 

[330]

@Owliet

This is very interesting, I have read this . And have contemplated this .Wondering if it was some way of them understanding the circle of life, or perhaps combined with environmental conditions forced them to survive.

I also found it interesting that the main diet of Gladiators was strictly vegan . Gladiators Barley Men , was a common descriptive referring to them @ that time period .

Meat was an extreme luxury in certain cultures and time periods. Which I am sure you have read in your history studies .

 

[Owliet]

@Owliet

This is very interesting, I have read this . And have contemplated this .Wondering if it was some way of them understanding the circle of life, or perhaps combined with environmental conditions forced them to survive.

I also found it interesting that the main diet of Gladiators was strictly vegan . Gladiators Barley Men , was a common descriptive referring to them @ that time period .

Meat was an extreme luxury in certain cultures and time periods. Which I am sure you have read in your history studies .

It’s quite an interesting study. =)
Seeing tool marks on animal bones and referring them to tool marks on human remains are not too dissimilar although there are arguments that there is ritual defleshing and may not refer to active cannibalism. I don’t think we will ever know for sure.=)
Yes, it’s really fascinating how dietary choices also relate to wealth. Same for specific animals as pets. It’s quite interesting that some people really connected to animals like @Rodafina mentioned with the wolves and human symbiotic relationship. I was recently reading about Togo and Balto with the race for the anti-toxin during the diphtheria case in the early 20th century in Alaska. Those animals, especially Togo were amazing. I didnt really realize the amount of pathway that Togo took that was very dangerous ground or realize how old Togo was (12) when he did that journey. Such a remarkable animal. I thinks also when you look at service animals during WW1 (horses especially) or even in the Celtic tales (with the irish grey hound that protected his human from a giant rat then died because he was falsely accused of killing) and you see the level of care and compassion with animals and people.

Egyptians with their animals, taking them to the afterlife with them — although I probably would not hasten the journey for my cats to come with me at the same time. People’s relationships with animals are so diverse and very much in-depth.

 

[Luca]

It’s quite an interesting study. =)
Seeing tool marks on animal bones and referring them to tool marks on human remains are not too dissimilar although there are arguments that there is ritual defleshing and may not refer to active cannibalism. I don’t think we will ever know for sure.=)
Yes, it’s really fascinating how dietary choices also relate to wealth. Same for specific animals as pets. It’s quite interesting that some people really connected to animals like @Rodafina mentioned with the wolves and human symbiotic relationship. I was recently reading about Togo and Balto with the race for the anti-toxin during the diphtheria case in the early 20th century in Alaska. Those animals, especially Togo were amazing. I didnt really realize the amount of pathway that Togo took that was very dangerous ground or realize how old Togo was (12) when he did that journey. Such a remarkable animal. I thinks also when you look at service animals during WW1 (horses especially) or even in the Celtic tales (with the irish grey hound that protected his human from a giant rat then died because he was falsely accused of killing) and you see the level of care and compassion with animals and people.

Egyptians with their animals, taking them to the afterlife with them — although I probably would not hasten the journey for my cats to come with me at the same time. People’s relationships with animals are so diverse and very much in-depth.

Have you seen the Togo movie? It was so good! I cried the whole time lol
Very good portrayal of symbiosis between humans and canines too.
Watching dogs hunt, herd, pull sleds, and protect people and livestock is so incredible.

Enzo is an active hunting dog (on regulated game birds, for food, not sport) and seeing him in action is always mind-blowing!

This is just a short clip of him pointing but it's really cool and kind of chilling to see this in action.

 

[Owliet]

Have you seen the Togo movie? It was so good! I cried the whole time lol
Very good portrayal of symbiosis between humans and canines too.
Watching dogs hunt, herd, pull sleds, and protect people and livestock is so incredible.

Enzo is an active hunting dog (on regulated game birds, for food, not sport) and seeing him in action is always mind-blowing!

This is just a short clip of him pointing but it's really cool and kind of chilling to see this in action.

Not yet — I read an article about them and discovered that it was a movie. I know that Balto exists and I’ve watched that but I think I’ll have to give Togo a watch too at some point.

What a smart dog! I think a lot of animals display intelligence Levels that people dont often realize. For example, cows are quite smart at times.=). And capybara have some smart ideas — I watched a clip with a capybara getting a ride on one of those caimans. =D

 

[Luca]

I have to say, I love that this thread has just turned into friendly, respectful chatting after some rather heavy topics were discussed. That's what I love so much about all of you guys and why this is my permanent home! <3