Headphone / Noise cancelling for Toddler

[Amby123]

Hi everyone,
I believe my 3 year old son would benefit form noise cancelling headphone or even just headphones that play music. He LOVES music but he covers his ears often at certain sounds (Door shutting, high pitch sounds.. certain voices). I've tried the Muffy noise cancelling headphone but he won't put them on and just screams if I try to put them on him. I've tried AirPods but he won't put them close to his ears. Any suggestions on ways of helping this? Or a type of headphone that might work for him? I was looking at the toque ones.. he does wear toques just fine. He gets very unregulated when his baby sister cries.. he screams, covers his ears and cries as soon as she does to the point it's difficult for me to take care of them together so I was really hoping there might be something to help him.

For some background, he is ASD level 2. He's quite a happy fellow but does get upset easily with things like transitions, noises or if he does not get his way (well of course! lol). Just trying to help my little man as much as I can. We do see an OT therapist but honestly... she's not the greatest at making suggestions. She did suggest the headphones but did not have other suggestions when I explained how upset he gets with these sounds.

He also screams and tries to slap when transitioning or if someone takes his toys away. Again, not much help from OT. Right now I physically just stop him from hitting (gently of course) and say It's ok... hug hug hug and he hugs himself. That does seem to be helping, sometimes I see him hugging himself but now he sometimes hits himself too my poor little man. I'm not sure if there's a more proper way to handle this.

Thanks in advance

 

[Judge]

May be an impractical notion presently given the market for children's (let alone toddlers) headphones. A market that hopefully incorporates an elevated amount of wear and tear on potentially fragile devices to begin with.

Note the list of such products, in which none of them offer noise-cancelling features. Leaving only the most effective- and expensive ones on the market, dominated by Bose and Sony. ($300-$400)

7 Kids' Headphones That Will Make Long Flights & Holiday Break So Much Easier

With a toddler in mind, I'd be looking at anything without any wires or connections at all. (They've always been the weak, most fragile point of most earphones and some headphones).

That said, you might investigate into the possibility of manufacturers of ear protectors for children, which have no electronics, but effectively block out most (but not all) sounds. Usually with noise reduction ratings (NRR) that are hopefully beyond -30 dB. And not expensive in comparison..

Yet much of that equation lies with a very tight, sometimes uncomfortable fit, which may not work for some if not most kids. Unlike headphones given their strength and durability, you can often bend- even "manhandle" them to loosen their fit. Though any time you loosen them too much, you're letting sound in as well. It requires a bit of tweaking, but I can't imagine getting helpful feedback from a three-year old.

(I wear them whenever there are very loud and sustained noises directly outside my apartment building, such as the landscapers using leaf blowers. And of course, at any firing range.)

 

[the_tortoise]

Sometimes active noise-cancelling headphones (they create soundwaves matching ambient noise to cancel them out - are always electronic) ctually create more noise (horribly horribly painful noise), in my experience.

But it sounds like you are talking about one of these (which are passive noise-reduction hearing protection like @Judge suggested)?

Some thoughts:

1. The two styles of Alpine Muffy ear defenders above...which does he hate? It may be that he would tolerate one style but not the other, as each one would feel quite different on the head...so maybe try the style you haven't tried yet, if it would fit his head?

2. He may dislike the squeezing feeling -- I own a pair of Walkers ear defenders that are very much like the top-of-head-headband style of Alpine Muffy ear defenders, like this:

They are all meant to squeeze/squish inwards to create a tight seal against the wearer's head to most effectively block out noise -- but that sensation is quite intense, and it may be why your son hates them....

You might try buying him ear defenders made for bigger kids or even adults, as they would block noise somewhat still would not squeeze against his head so much

3. Despite his sound sensitivity, it might seriously freak him out to be unable to hear normally....Also, he may be overwhelmed by how much louder all the inside-his-body and especially inside-his-head sounds become when the ambient noise around his is blocked out and the inner body sounds are kind of blocked in, and seem louder because of the reduction in outside-self noise

4. If you can get him headphones (ideally colorful soft bluetooth ones made for kids -- and maybe if possible let him choose them and if possible even see if you can find a store where they would let him try them on, so you'd know if hates them before buying and also so that he could feel in control of what goes on his head -- could be very important to a sensory defensive child (I say this is as a sensory defensive adult who was like your son when I was a toddler -- have extreme hyperacusis still, and tactile hypersensitivity)

5. Maybe different styles -- he may be unable to tolerate a headband at the top of his head but would be okay with the kind that go around the back of his head, or even with earbuds that have loops that go over the ears (although I suspect the latter may not be appropriate until he's older).

6. Does his OT do auditory integration therapy with him? If so, is he okay with it or does he hate it? If he hates it, that might be why he doesn't tolerate any earmuff style headphones -- because he thinks they will torture him like the special headset used of AIT with the bone conduction thing....

My OT tried auditory integration therapy with me, and it was TORTURE. She had to stop it very fast...I declined to ever try it a second time (The memory still sends shivers down my spine...I cannot express enough how awful it was.)

I want to believe that all OTs are sensitive to distress in their littlest clients but if yours is doing AIT with your son and he is freaking out in distress because of it, and she does not respond appropriately to stop -- please consider asking her to stop the AIT because seriously, traumatically aversive sensory overload experiences may not desensitize him -- they may just make it worse instead.

7. If you get him over-ear headphones thst play music, let him choose the music -- try to find a child-friendly set that has a traditional old-school volume dial or volume control buttons as well as play/pause (etc) on the earpieces.

8. Maybe try putting the ear defenders over top of a thin toque -- if it not the sudden reduction in normal sound freaking him out but something about the sensation of the ear defenders, it could be proprioceptive (pressure) or tactile -- some fabric acting as a cushion between the ear defenders and his skin might reduce both unpleasant proprioceptive and/or unpleasant tactile sensation and make it more tolerable for him.

Good luck!

 

[Outdated]

(Door shutting, high pitch sounds.. certain voices).

I'm also ASD2 with hypersensitive hearing. I just thought I should point out the impacts some sounds have on people like me. It's not just a matter of "I don't like it.", sound causes real problems for some of us.

The high pitched tones can be particularly nasty, they cause me extreme pain. It doesn't hurt my ears, that's not where the problem is, it hurts inside my brain where the audio processing takes place. It feels like someone's pushing a metal spike through my brain. I've had a lot of injuries in my life including spinal damage but nothing even comes close to that pain in my skull from high pitched sounds. Noise cancelling headphones do not block those tones, nothing does.

Tone sources: electric leaf blowers, vacuum cleaners, screaming babies, and some women who like to put on a ridiculously high pitched Minnie Mouse voice because they think it sounds cute.

Voices cause us another sort of problem because of the way in which our brains process sounds. In a crowded situation most of you can focus on one voice and tune the others out, I can not. My brain assigns equal importance to every sound I hear, but also, a part of my brain tries to process every single sound to make sense of it.

My brain assigns equal importance to every sound I hear, but also, a part of my brain tries to process every single sound to make sense of it.

I deliberately repeated that statement because of how important it is. My brain never shuts down, it's always processing everything it senses. If half a dozen people all start talking to you at once are you able to understand them? I know you can not. That's the problem I have with voices, I can hear all of them all at once and trying to decipher anything intelligible from the cacophony is difficult and tiring.

When I walk through a crowded eatery in a shopping centre part of my brain tries to decipher 200 voices simultaneously. I'm unable to block that out or stop it from happening and within a few minutes I'm mentally exhausted from the effort required. Shiny floors and glass walls make all of this ten times worse because my brain also picks up on all the reflections and echoes of those voices.

 

[Judge]

Agreed, the human voice tends to represent the most problematic thing to hear, given how easily it can compete with and be overwhelmed by other even "ambient" sounds.

A major reason for me wearing headphones more and more just to watch television. Sure, all those whiz-bang special effects sound cool in multiplex channels on sophisticated sound platforms, but it would seem that it's dialog that gets lost so easily in the mix. One where most center channel speakers just can't cut it.

Donning on some good 2-channel headphones seems to overcome that issue for me. Not to mention that with headphones I have no limitations on volume, always having to be mindful given living in a multi-unit apartment complex.

 

[Amby123]

Sometimes active noise-cancelling headphones (they create soundwaves matching ambient noise to cancel them out - are always electronic) ctually create more noise (horribly horribly painful noise), in my experience.

But it sounds like you are talking about one of these (which are passive noise-reduction hearing protection like @Judge suggested)?

View attachment 148696

View attachment 148697

Some thoughts:

1. The two styles of Alpine Muffy ear defenders above...which does he hate? It may be that he would tolerate one style but not the other, as each one would feel quite different on the head...so maybe try the style you haven't tried yet, if it would fit his head?

2. He may dislike the squeezing feeling -- I own a pair of Walkers ear defenders that are very much like the top-of-head-headband style of Alpine Muffy ear defenders, like this:

View attachment 148698
They are all meant to squeeze/squish inwards to create a tight seal against the wearer's head to most effectively block out noise -- but that sensation is quite intense, and it may be why your son hates them....

You might try buying him ear defenders made for bigger kids or even adults, as they would block noise somewhat still would not squeeze against his head so much

3. Despite his sound sensitivity, it might seriously freak him out to be unable to hear normally....Also, he may be overwhelmed by how much louder all the inside-his-body and especially inside-his-head sounds become when the ambient noise around his is blocked out and the inner body sounds are kind of blocked in, and seem louder because of the reduction in outside-self noise

4. If you can get him headphones (ideally colorful soft bluetooth ones made for kids -- and maybe if possible let him choose them and if possible even see if you can find a store where they would let him try them on, so you'd know if hates them before buying and also so that he could feel in control of what goes on his head -- could be very important to a sensory defensive child (I say this is as a sensory defensive adult who was like your son when I was a toddler -- have extreme hyperacusis still, and tactile hypersensitivity)

5. Maybe different styles -- he may be unable to tolerate a headband at the top of his head but would be okay with the kind that go around the back of his head, or even with earbuds that have loops that go over the ears (although I suspect the latter may not be appropriate until he's older).

6. Does his OT do auditory integration therapy with him? If so, is he okay with it or does he hate it? If he hates it, that might be why he doesn't tolerate any earmuff style headphones -- because he thinks they will torture him like the special headset used of AIT with the bone conduction thing....

My OT tried auditory integration therapy with me, and it was TORTURE. She had to stop it very fast...I declined to ever try it a second time (The memory still sends shivers down my spine...I cannot express enough how awful it was.)

I want to believe that all OTs are sensitive to distress in their littlest clients but if yours is doing AIT with your son and he is freaking out in distress because of it, and she does not respond appropriately to stop -- please consider asking her to stop the AIT because seriously, traumatically aversive sensory overload experiences may not desensitize him -- they may just make it worse instead.

7. If you get him over-ear headphones thst play music, let him choose the music -- try to find a child-friendly set that has a traditional old-school volume dial or volume control buttons as well as play/pause (etc) on the earpieces.

8. Maybe try putting the ear defenders over top of a thin toque -- if it not the sudden reduction in normal sound freaking him out but something about the sensation of the ear defenders, it could be proprioceptive (pressure) or tactile -- some fabric acting as a cushion between the ear defenders and his skin might reduce both unpleasant proprioceptive and/or unpleasant tactile sensation and make it more tolerable for him.

Good luck!

Thank you for all of the amazing and helpful suggestions. Wow! His OT does not do AIT - I actually have never heard of AIT until you mentioned it. Interesting. I will take him to a store and see if he is interested in trying anything on. Or possibly try the band you are talking about. I am not sure why he hates trying any sort of headphone on! The first muffy you sent is the one we tried - and then I tried one that can play music and was much looser fitting. I think I will just play his favourite music in them and let him try for himself as I think the tighter one must’ve freaked him out. Thanks again!

 

[Judge]

I am not sure why he hates trying any sort of headphone on!

Autistic children and adults can get pretty ornery about much of anything that is awfully tight against our bodies. Then again a thick, comfortably textured blanket can also have a calming effect. Go figure.

Even now while I have an excellent headphone technologically speaking, that my comfort level with it goes only so far for so long.

"Nature of the beast" I suppose.

 

[Amby123]

I'm also ASD2 with hypersensitive hearing. I just thought I should point out the impacts some sounds have on people like me. It's not just a matter of "I don't like it.", sound causes real problems for some of us.

The high pitched tones can be particularly nasty, they cause me extreme pain. It doesn't hurt my ears, that's not where the problem is, it hurts inside my brain where the audio processing takes place. It feels like someone's pushing a metal spike through my brain. I've had a lot of injuries in my life including spinal damage but nothing even comes close to that pain in my skull from high pitched sounds. Noise cancelling headphones do not block those tones, nothing does.

Tone sources: electric leaf blowers, vacuum cleaners, screaming babies, and some women who like to put on a ridiculously high pitched Minnie Mouse voice because they think it sounds cute.

Voices cause us another sort of problem because of the way in which our brains process sounds. In a crowded situation most of you can focus on one voice and tune the others out, I can not. My brain assigns equal importance to every sound I hear, but also, a part of my brain tries to process every single sound to make sense of it.

My brain assigns equal importance to every sound I hear, but also, a part of my brain tries to process every single sound to make sense of it.

I deliberately repeated that statement because of how important it is. My brain never shuts down, it's always processing everything it senses. If half a dozen people all start talking to you at once are you able to understand them? I know you can not. That's the problem I have with voices, I can hear all of them all at once and trying to decipher anything intelligible from the cacophony is difficult and tiring.

When I walk through a crowded eatery in a shopping centre part of my brain tries to decipher 200 voices simultaneously. I'm unable to block that out or stop it from happening and within a few minutes I'm mentally exhausted from the effort required. Shiny floors and glass walls make all of this ten times worse because my brain also picks up on all the reflections and echoes of those voices.

Thank you for helping me understand my son’s experience a little more. Would you say it’s best to stay in quiet rooms? I definitely think this is how he feels

I'm also ASD2 with hypersensitive hearing. I just thought I should point out the impacts some sounds have on people like me. It's not just a matter of "I don't like it.", sound causes real problems for some of us.

The high pitched tones can be particularly nasty, they cause me extreme pain. It doesn't hurt my ears, that's not where the problem is, it hurts inside my brain where the audio processing takes place. It feels like someone's pushing a metal spike through my brain. I've had a lot of injuries in my life including spinal damage but nothing even comes close to that pain in my skull from high pitched sounds. Noise cancelling headphones do not block those tones, nothing does.

Tone sources: electric leaf blowers, vacuum cleaners, screaming babies, and some women who like to put on a ridiculously high pitched Minnie Mouse voice because they think it sounds cute.

Voices cause us another sort of problem because of the way in which our brains process sounds. In a crowded situation most of you can focus on one voice and tune the others out, I can not. My brain assigns equal importance to every sound I hear, but also, a part of my brain tries to process every single sound to make sense of it.

My brain assigns equal importance to every sound I hear, but also, a part of my brain tries to process every single sound to make sense of it.

I deliberately repeated that statement because of how important it is. My brain never shuts down, it's always processing everything it senses. If half a dozen people all start talking to you at once are you able to understand them? I know you can not. That's the problem I have with voices, I can hear all of them all at once and trying to decipher anything intelligible from the cacophony is difficult and tiring.

When I walk through a crowded eatery in a shopping centre part of my brain tries to decipher 200 voices simultaneously. I'm unable to block that out or stop it from happening and within a few minutes I'm mentally exhausted from the effort required. Shiny floors and glass walls make all of this ten times worse because my brain also picks up on all the reflections and echoes of those voices.

Thank you for helping me understand my sons experience. That must be so difficult to deal with and I hope I can help him be as comfortable as he can. I can see him relating with the multiple people talking at once… because he doesn’t answer when lots of people are talking. Sometimes he will just come to me and I rock him and cover his ears. He doesn’t seem to be in pain but more so seems annoyed and usually will play in the other room. But maybe he’s not showing how horrible of an experience it really is? With the baby crying is when he REALLLY screams and cries. It breaks my heart! He doesn’t cry like this with anything else. If you have any suggestions please let me know. Even if it’s keeping him in calm areas as often as I can? He goes to daycare so I hope he’s not suffering all day…

 

[Judge]

He doesn’t seem to be in pain but more so seems annoyed and usually will play in the other room. But maybe he’s not showing how horrible of an experience it really is? With the baby crying is when he REALLLY screams and cries.

Good point. That we can be both selective about whether we exhibit pain, or like in my case I was raised not to show pain- or fear. The result of being raised in a military household by a career officer.

So many things I look back on now, particularly emotional injuries that I kept to myself. Even as a youngster. Not really sure if this is particularly an autistic thing, mind you.

 

[Outdated]

Thank you for helping me understand my son’s experience a little more. Would you say it’s best to stay in quiet rooms? I definitely think this is how he feels...

You're more than welcome. That was one of the biggest troubles I had growing up, no one could understand what was really going on and my father believed I acted up deliberately just to upset him.

There's a lot of discussion going on in Australia at the moment about making public spaces more autism friendly, and this includes the public areas inside businesses too. Most businesses are always interested in anything that will attract more customers. The two biggest issues seem to be sound and smell.

There are some buildings in my city that have sound dampening materials used on walls and ceilings, many cities have them, convention centres and concert halls etc. These places are autistic auditory heaven. When people talk in these places the sound doesn't travel and doesn't bounce back from multiple directions and hearing many people at once in these places isn't very distracting.

Unfortunately modern architectural design is for all shiny surfaces everywhere and these surfaces reflect and amplify sound as well as light. I bet your boy hates shopping centres. In these sorts of places proper active noise (ANC) cancelling headphones will be a great help to him, but you only get what you pay for. I have a nice pair of Bose Quiet Comfort headphones and they're really very good, but they're not cheap and I doubt you could get them small enough to fit a child.

Inside your home you can greatly dampen sound by putting up cloth wall hangings, if you did that in the baby's room the sound wouldn't travel as much, and as the baby gets older the pitch changes and although still annoying it won't hurt him any more. I feel for him, there's no other pain quite like it.

 

[Amby123]

Autistic children and adults can get pretty ornery about much of anything that is awfully tight against our bodies. Then again a thick, comfortably textured blanket can also have a calming effect. Go figure.

Even now while I have an excellent headphone technologically speaking, that my comfort level with it goes only so far for so long.

"Nature of the beast" I suppose.

Oh my little man! We need some autistic friends to help us navigate.. I am learning more from this thread on the matter than months of OT.

Good point. That we can be both selective about whether we exhibit pain, or like in my case I was raised not to show pain- or fear. The result of being raised in a military household by a career officer.

So many things I look back on now, particularly emotional injuries that I kept to myself. Even as a youngster. Not really sure if this is particularly an autistic thing, mind you.

That makes sense. You seem like such a self aware person. I appreciate your insights. Yes thats definitely the same for neurotypicals but I’d imagine tougher for autistic individuals since im sure there is already a feeling of being misunderstood and unheard. I always try to make sure he feels safe to express himself - I sometimes have to remind his father. I notice he is very sensitive to tones. Even the slightest “angry” tone and he gets soooo upset and it makes it worse. He likes soft voices and tight hugs. The other day when he was having a melt down he said “Ambrose don’t be bad don’t be bad” (referring to himself) and getting more upset.. I’m assuming someone at daycare says that to him regularly at daycare. I’ll have to speak to them about it.

 

[vergil96]

It's hard to say what the issue is for such a little child who isn't able to articulate it. My bet is that the headphones are too tight, but you will have to try many models and just see.

Also I don't know if it it applies. But for me personally, headphones without solid ANC aren't even good to listen to music. Just a bit of sponge doesn't do much with noise, in my opinion. For me it has to be either good ANC or ear defenders. Or earplugs with a high decibel grading - the lower ones don't do much for me.

I can see him relating with the multiple people talking at once… because he doesn’t answer when lots of people are talking.

For me, when muktiple people talk, the sound becomes a mush and I don't understand. As simple as that. Illegible. It also can get too loud if too many people are talking and it's stressful.

Most businesses are always interested in anything that will attract more customers. The two biggest issues seem to be sound and smell.

I rarely go to shopping malls. Everything is the issue. I don't understand why they have to use these detergents. There is also the smell from fast food, oil frying oil. Since I vomited in a shopping mall as a result of everything and then this nauseating stink of fast food hitting me, I'm not keen on going there. The lighting is an issue for me as well. They hang bilboards everywhere and they flash, I have photosensitivity of some sort. It makes me feel nauseous and shaky. The lighting they use is harsh too. It's hard to tolerate it at all. Perhaps it flickers, I'm pretty sure it's also the LEDs with a too narrow frequency, the light is too dark and blindingly bright at the same time. Go figure. I didn't touch on the too loud music yet...

Having said that, some malls are better and some are worse. There are a couple that I can go to without issues in my area, that if they play music, than it's quiet, there is a lot of natural lighting through the windows and it's not stinky there, but I prefer shops that you can enter from outside. Nothing better than fresh air and natural sunlight.

 

[Outdated]

I notice he is very sensitive to tones. Even the slightest “angry” tone and he gets soooo upset and it makes it worse.

I was also always very affected by this. Even today, if I hear a couple the next street over having a domestic argument it upsets me far beyond what it should. I want to cry, I want to run away, I want to hide, I want it to stop. I don't do any of those things of course but that's how it affects me emotionally. I became immune to my father in that way though, yelling and screaming seemed to be all he ever did.

I don't understand why they have to use these detergents. There is also the smell from fast food, oil frying oil. Since I vomited in a shopping mall as a result of everything and then this nauseating stink of fast food hitting me, I'm not keen on going there.

For me it's perfumes mostly. Upmarket department stores here have all the women's cosmetics just inside their front doors to attract customers, I have to hold my breath and rush past them because the stench makes me feel ill. People that spray half a can of stuff on themselves are painful. Shops that burn incense or scented oils are also nasty.

 

[the_tortoise]

The other day when he was having a melt down he said “Ambrose don’t be bad don’t be bad” (referring to himself) and getting more upset.. I’m assuming someone at daycare says that to him regularly at daycare. I’ll have to speak to them about it.

I hope you give yourself credit for being such a good advocate for him, and so attentive to his sensory and other needs -- And for understanding what meltdowns actually are rather than conflating them with tantrums!(Most people don't get it, and don't even try.)

A parent's acceptance and understanding, and their protective advocacy can make all the difference in the world to an autistic child's life.

Not only to their self-acceptance and sense of safety (which of course has effects for learning and self-confidence and motivation etc) but to their own future self-advocacy skills -- if he sees and hears you stand up for him then it helps teach him it's okay to stand up for himself in the same situations you would, and that you will support him if someone ever hurts him or treats him unfairly.

 

[vergil96]

For me it's perfumes mostly. Upmarket department stores here have all the women's cosmetics just inside their front doors to attract customers, I have to hold my breath and rush past them because the stench makes me feel ill. People that spray half a can of stuff on themselves are painful. Shops that burn incense or scented oils are also nasty.

It depends which perfumes, but I can't handle what they spray in shopping malls either quite often. The smell reminds me rather of artificial very intense version of what is used in detergents and cheap deodorants.

People that spray half a can of stuff on themselves are painful.

Agreed

 

[Judge]

Oh my little man! We need some autistic friends to help us navigate.. I am learning more from this thread on the matter than months of OT.

That makes sense. You seem like such a self aware person. I appreciate your insights. Yes thats definitely the same for neurotypicals but I’d imagine tougher for autistic individuals since im sure there is already a feeling of being misunderstood and unheard. I always try to make sure he feels safe to express himself - I sometimes have to remind his father. I notice he is very sensitive to tones. Even the slightest “angry” tone and he gets soooo upset and it makes it worse. He likes soft voices and tight hugs. The other day when he was having a melt down he said “Ambrose don’t be bad don’t be bad” (referring to himself) and getting more upset.. I’m assuming someone at daycare says that to him regularly at daycare. I’ll have to speak to them about it.

By now I think you've already discovered that a great many of us here can articulate on our sensitivities, traits and behaviors in ways that dry medical articles cannot. Making this particular website and autistic community an excellent resource to better understand your son, particularly all kinds of sensitivities and their possible amplitudes that we may or may not share. So ask away, and we will tell you.

You may find most of us have one kind of sensitivity or another, that can make our daily lives uh....."complicated". Particularly involving sounds and smells. With me sustained very low frequencies (usually below 50Hz) can drive me nuts after so many seconds. And cigarette smoke sends me instantly into a fight or flight mode. And other common things like trying to keep up with two persons talking at the same time becomes unmanageable in a hurry. While otherwise I may be able to multitask doing four things at once. Just not anything involving communication with another person.

There are other things as well, but my point is for you to better relate to your little boy in a similar manner. He likely has a lot more that he thinks and feels, but isn't ready to articulate them just yet at his present age. (I didn't even begin to speak in full sentences until the age of four, yet I was never properly diagnosed with autism). A sign of the times growing up in the 50s and 60s. I only stumbled onto all of this largely by accident at the age of 55.

It was quite a revelation coming here to discover what I thought made me so unique and indescribable was relatively common amongst a number of members here. Making me no longer feel so alone as I had been for most of my life.