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Forget what people say love is...

I think the expressions of love in each direction in an NT/AS relationship are just very different. I think your first statement earlier:

...is still true. You're an honorable person, and you show that you care for a lot of people by expressing that care in the ways you listed. This is you caring for and loving them, according to your understanding of what love looks like.

But the later statement:

...reflects other people's failure to express love to you in a way that natively resonates for you. They might very well love you tremendously, but the ways they express it (perhaps...always wanting to be together, or trying to "make" you feel happy, or wanting to dump their junk on you to "share the burden") just don't feel like love to you. Once these behaviors get through the aspie filter, it feels very demanding and unsafe.
The depressing thing is that it's things everybody agrees is something you don't do if you love somebody. You don't tell them you hope they'll die alone and hated, and you don't threaten to ruin their life or threaten to kill them. Especially not over stupid things like not borrowing a comb and using your own. This be the psychotic dirty dealings I deal with on a regular basis from people who claim to love me. Thank goodness most people who say they love me act like decent human beings. But those few... o_O

But that filter works in both directions. Our expressions of aspie-love come from a place of genuinely caring about the other person. But by the time our behaviors work their way through the NT-filter, it might feel distant, cold, or clinical to them (or some other set of adjectives, depending on the relationship, I guess).

ETA: I also suspect some of these love-language-translation difficulties have an awful lot to do with healthy vs. unhealthy relationships in general, not just differences in AS vs NT styles of loving people. I suspect that NTs and aspies respond to codependent relationships in different ways, which result in different weak spots for each group, but the dysfunctions in codependent relationships are just as destructive to both.

And...both groups can do just as much of the work to address our own dysfunctional ways of relating, and learn how to express our caring for each other in healthier ways while still understanding and being authentic to our respective native "love languages" (and the inherent differences for each group).
True dat. Ups and downs, agreements and disagreements are just part of life. If you stick to it and willingly work through each other's faults, it'll work out in the end. :)
 
Enlightened self-interest actually came from a course in negotiation I took that was sponsored by an employer. I like it. It allows me to admit I'm selfish, acknowledges my equally authentic fascination with people, and show both systemic and transactional ways to work with others when my social deficiencies can't find a way.

Ahh, a truly decent sense of honesty! There's a lovely lecture by Alan Watts (Mysticism and Morals) that deals with something like that. I think a lot of Aspies would appreciate such a world!

I'm not an Ayn fan, although I have read several of her books and a biography.

-sighs in relief-
Some day I'll probably read The Fountainhead, which is actually supposed to be fairly well written. I've never read anything by her or her followers in terms of philosophy that has ever made me want to read anything else written by them.

I don't find love rational, although I do believe "the heart has reasons of its own, that the head knows not of." I know I'm quoting someone. Can't remember who.

Thanks Naturalist for helping on that!

Nietzsche has a wonderful point about motives, which I'll substitute for Pascal's "reasons," laid out in Twilight of the Idols. He claims that we manufacture a "motive" after an action has occurred, in order to explain how we feel about it after the fact, and then claim that it existed beforehand. I have some issues with this if taken dogmatically (Nietzsche loved hyperbole) but there's something to it. These motives may not be "reasons" in the sense of mechanical physics, at which Pascal was so brilliant, but more a set of repeated responses in related scenarios that we observe and react to.

Sometimes, when we try to say "I feel love when this occurs because at this other time I felt a lack of some other thing" we are constructing a fictional narrative that, regardless of the truth, will shape us. It's the blessing and curse of self-analysis.

I have a slight twist to your question on discernment: "Why do I want or even care about this person's love?" It feeds into a model of loves I picked up from someone who studied social psychology--familial, phrenic, philic...there were nine, I should find the list. Intellectual, romantic, altruistic forms. Self-love, too: philautic, I think. I find that my worst decisions about other people are made in emotionally volatile situations. What looks like self-respect "in the heat" looks very different the next day or the next week. One of my current challenges is remembering to connect for care of the other even though I feel attached by the other. What looks like weakness "in the heat" can look very different the next day or the next week.

Your closing sentence is spot-on.

Oh god, the why's....I'll settle on some how's for the moment, if I should be so lucky!

It's been a pleasure. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Likewise!
 
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In my own case, I tend to love others for being different than me; their existence enlivens my world, but I don't become like them. Still, I'm aware, at some level, of the immense amount of their self that I don't really know, and would have to answer that my love for them is mostly about our interactions and my self - the latter being far more prevalent, as it is obviously a constant.

This has largely been my experience. I have invariably chosen people who see the world in a widely differing view than my own. This has resulted in a fair amount of alienation, and inevitably a sense of obligation holding the relationship together on my part (my version of Aspie "loyalty"?)

And it is that " love is mostly about our interactions" that leaves me feeling that love has never been and will never be all its cracked up to be. I thought about this on my bike ride home from work this evening; my relationships have been about a shared experience, when we are together and interacting, engaging in some activity or just being together. Some of that is relating to each other the events of the time we have spent apart, some about what we might do in the future, and maybe a little bit about the here and now. If I think about it, those experiences have really left me quite underwhelmed in terms of deep emotional experiences, as I would expect out of "love". Mostly my issue.

Not sure where that leaves me.

I do agree about the motives manufactured after the event, and claimed to be present beforehand. They may be true upon deeper analysis, but would be highly susceptible to wishful thinking, which I have suspected in the recounting of other couples mythologies.
 
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I think a lot of it is chemically based. You know, two that have the right chemistry.
 
Yes, the chemical basis of love. I have suspected that as an overarching component to one or two rather uncharacteristic (and overwhelming) attractions in my life. Don't know if it exists, but if I'm honest about it, I have anecdotal evidence of it's presence and absence.
 
my relationships have been about a shared experience, when we are together and interacting, engaging in some activity or just being together. Some of that is relating to each other the events of the time we have spent apart, some about what we might do in the future, and maybe a little bit about the here and now. If I think about it, those experiences have really left me quite underwhelmed in terms of deep emotional experiences, as I would expect out of "love". Mostly my issue.

This tends to be my experience as well. It's like I've always had this expectation that the experience of love should be a deep, profoundly emotional and intimate experience in the moment with someone...but when I'm honest, that's not what I actually experience. And thus, the severe disappointment when I've been looking forward to "connecting" with someone, only to be confined to walking alongside them for a few moments but never experiencing the actual person. Probably an issue within me as well (as in...not their fault).

I do agree about the motives manufactured after the event, and claimed to be present beforehand. They may be true upon deeper analysis, but would be highly susceptible to wishful thinking,

I keep asking people what love feels like to them...if it is an emotional experience for them, where they feel connected with people. It appears to be that way for them. But maybe I'm confusing enmeshment with love.
 
It's like I've always had this expectation that the experience of love should be a deep, profoundly emotional and intimate experience in the moment with someone...but when I'm honest, that's not what I actually experience. And thus, the severe disappointment when I've been looking forward to "connecting" with someone,

Connecting, that is a loaded word.

I think we all have differing understanding and expectation of connection. I have no idea whether I have ever really connected with anyone. I have certainly been told that people can't "connect" with me adequately. How would I know, what is the result of that connection? Are there people who simply aren't ever going to be able to connect, whatever they try? Even if each of them could turn around and connect with the next person they see? If it varies from person to person, then we necessarily have to keep trying to connect with the same people or try with new ones until that connection occurs. Because of social anxiety and inadequacies, I have greatly limited my interaction with new people, and have circled around and around the same people looking for an opening to truly connect. I think those without social issues might be better able to try with new people, and probably have better skills with those around them to find that way to connection.

That disappointment has been true for me, except for one case, and the experiences with that person still haunt me. I feel that I might have craved it so much that I inflated whatever feelings I had, and she was doing the same. There was a sense of boundlessness and a meandering path of growth and mystery. Or it could have been that undeniable, ultimately rational "chemistry". Or a strong irrational desire for unobtainable romantic love. In any case, we were never available when the other was.

Unfortunately, I have such a distrust of my emotions and feelings that enmeshment, if I am interpreting that correctly, is more rational and therefore sustainable and less prone to over heated emotions, and therefore preferable to true emotionally connected love, even though that goes against my own experience. But I haven't experienced the emotional "love" alternative on a long term basis to know if it goes sour.
 
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But what does that mean?

Here's some of the answer explained by a doctor dude:


Paul King, Computational Neuroscientist, Redwood Center for Theoretical Neuroscience

"The feelings and behaviors associated with falling in love definitely have a neurobiological basis, but much about what love means is constructed by the mind.

The feeling of falling in love or being in love are emotional states with neurobiological and biochemical correlates in the brain. Endorphins are brain hormones that activate the same receptors as opium and morphine and are connected with positive feelings such as euphoria. Oxytocin is another hormone in the brain which is involved in pair-bonding. Some have called oxytocin the "love hormone" because of its association with attachment and feelings of trust, safety, and protectiveness. Oxytocin is also involved in the attachment bond of mother to child and is released during nursing. Oxytocin may also be involved in the phenomenon of empathy towards others.

At the same time, there is a lot about love that is culturally determined."
 
Here's some of the answer explained by a doctor dude:


Paul King
, Computational Neuroscientist, Redwood Center for Theoretical Neuroscience

"The feelings and behaviors associated with falling in love definitely have a neurobiological basis, but much about what love means is constructed by the mind.

The feeling of falling in love or being in love are emotional states with neurobiological and biochemical correlates in the brain. Endorphins are brain hormones that activate the same receptors as opium and morphine and are connected with positive feelings such as euphoria. Oxytocin is another hormone in the brain which is involved in pair-bonding. Some have called oxytocin the "love hormone" because of its association with attachment and feelings of trust, safety, and protectiveness. Oxytocin is also involved in the attachment bond of mother to child and is released during nursing. Oxytocin may also be involved in the phenomenon of empathy towards others.

At the same time, there is a lot about love that is culturally determined."

Still, it remains a mystery why some people do it for you, while others don't.
 
This has largely been my experience. I have invariably chosen people who see the world in a widely differing view than my own. This has resulted in a fair amount of alienation, and inevitably a sense of obligation holding the relationship together on my part (my version of Aspie "loyalty"?)

And it is that " love is mostly about our interactions" that leaves me feeling that love has never been and will never be all its cracked up to be. I thought about this on my bike ride home from work this evening; my relationships have been about a shared experience, when we are together and interacting, engaging in some activity or just being together. Some of that is relating to each other the events of the time we have spent apart, some about what we might do in the future, and maybe a little bit about the here and now. If I think about it, those experiences have really left me quite underwhelmed in terms of deep emotional experiences, as I would expect out of "love". Mostly my issue.

Not sure where that leaves me.

There is a form of love which, one could argue has something to do with "experience" but in a different sense, which I feel can shed additional light on our love for other people. One can love a piece of art, without any hope or desire to change that art, receiving nothing more than the satisfaction that such art exists. In fact, it may be a piece of physical art you have never seen in person, not even once, and yet you can love it all the same.

Now, that love still has something to do with how the piece of art, at some level, touched you - this is true of anything and everything. We cannot love something that we do not interact with, and probably cannot identify love of something we are not aware of. Nevertheless, a love for a sculpture seen once or twice in pictures...there is something wonderful in such a celebration.

I think we can and do love people in such a manner, at times. This, at the very least, draws parallels to the notion of pure, selfless love that is so widely praised. A celebration that such a person exists, even (perhaps especially) if they are removed from my own direct experience, is as close to a practical description of "agape" that I know of.

This tends to be my experience as well. It's like I've always had this expectation that the experience of love should be a deep, profoundly emotional and intimate experience in the moment with someone...but when I'm honest, that's not what I actually experience. And thus, the severe disappointment when I've been looking forward to "connecting" with someone, only to be confined to walking alongside them for a few moments but never experiencing the actual person. Probably an issue within me as well (as in...not their fault).



I keep asking people what love feels like to them...if it is an emotional experience for them, where they feel connected with people. It appears to be that way for them. But maybe I'm confusing enmeshment with love.

If I'm correct in some of my theories, loving someone in this "selfless" manner may represent a sort of expansion of consciousness. I never felt, of my own accord, certain ways about certain situations, but I could actually feel differently with and through my ex-fiancee. My sense of what was possible, a new take on life, increased. This is something that has, rather covertly, occurred throughout much of literature or in the writing of history, and to find it in another person is like finding a living piece of art - more real than reality.

Of course, without some (generally quite a lot of) interaction, one cannot begin to develop such an appreciation. It can also be mistaken or mislead by false appearances, but that is true of any and every thing. If and when it is formed, it greatly deepens my feeling of love for another, and adds that note of selflessness, the feeling of the whole universe expanding into and through this other person.

I have no expectations of finding this connection with anyone that I meet. It's difficult enough for me to predict who might make a decent friend, much less something like this - so I'm protected from disappointment by a shield of mild despair. ;)

I do agree about the motives manufactured after the event, and claimed to be present beforehand. They may be true upon deeper analysis, but would be highly susceptible to wishful thinking, which I have suspected in the recounting of other couples mythologies.

Language gets more than a little hazy in these matters. I absolutely believe in structures which influence/determine what we do and how we react. However, they are also infinitely complex and our attempts to determine what they are, to find firm and factual reasons, must construct a narrative, a fiction of sorts which is necessarily incomplete and inadequate.

There can be no doubt, for instance, that my relationships with women have been strongly influenced by the fact that I was, shall we say, "drafted" into my parents' fights and often directly informed that a man's value is mostly determined by how he supports his wife. That could be called a reason for many of my preferences. However, describing a particular motive to a particular action goes far beyond any individual fact.
 
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Here's some of the answer explained by a doctor dude:


Paul King
, Computational Neuroscientist, Redwood Center for Theoretical Neuroscience

"The feelings and behaviors associated with falling in love definitely have a neurobiological basis, but much about what love means is constructed by the mind.

The feeling of falling in love or being in love are emotional states with neurobiological and biochemical correlates in the brain. Endorphins are brain hormones that activate the same receptors as opium and morphine and are connected with positive feelings such as euphoria. Oxytocin is another hormone in the brain which is involved in pair-bonding. Some have called oxytocin the "love hormone" because of its association with attachment and feelings of trust, safety, and protectiveness. Oxytocin is also involved in the attachment bond of mother to child and is released during nursing. Oxytocin may also be involved in the phenomenon of empathy towards others.

At the same time, there is a lot about love that is culturally determined."

Technically, any thing or feeling can be given a materialist explanation - there's a big push to try and remove any "mind" for more neurobiology, and the pendulum will probably start to swing back the other way in the next 20 years. By the same token, all of experience can be described as nothing more than sensations (we only have an idea of matter, etc) as with the good old "brain in a vat" conjecture. I like to chuck the two paradoxes together and let each begin eating the other by the tail.
 
Technically, any thing or feeling can be given a materialist explanation - there's a big push to try and remove any "mind" for more neurobiology, and the pendulum will probably start to swing back the other way in the next 20 years. By the same token, all of experience can be described as nothing more than sensations (we only have an idea of matter, etc) as with the good old "brain in a vat" conjecture. I like to chuck the two paradoxes together and let each begin eating the other by the tail.

Love is a brain in a vat. Sounds good to me.

:D
 
However, they are also infinitely complex and our attempts to determine what they are, to find firm and factual reasons, must construct a narrative, a fiction of sorts which is necessarily incomplete and inadequate.

This is why I believe I was a happier person when I allowed things to be as they were, accepting the infinite complexities of life and the universe and understanding that I will never know the truth. To question but not to doubt, if you know what I mean.

I have no expectations of finding this connection with anyone that I meet. It's difficult enough for me to predict who might make a decent friend, much less something like this - so I'm protected from disappointment by a shield of mild despair. ;)

That is how I once felt, and the mild despair was completely acceptable, better than the suffering and pain brought on by troubled relationships.

A celebration that such a person exists, even (perhaps especially) if they are removed from my own direct experience, is as close to a practical description of "agape" that I know of.

I will think about that, and take comfort in the idea. I appreciate your personal expression of that concept.
 
To the latter point first - absolutely! A healthy dose of self-discovery would do a great many people a great deal of good. Hell, that's what many people go to therapists for.

On the off topic...since many of my conversations essentially seem to take place in my head, but in reality I'm also talking out loud, I'm frankly uncertain. There are quite a few threads on this, in which I've taken part, and that seems to be a common enough tendency. I've no longer got any idea whether NT's actually have quiet inside their own heads or not.
In response to your query, I'm an NT and my thoughts are spoken out loud in my head and I wish sometimes I could have that quiet. Sometimes I talk out loud to myself but more often in my head.
 

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