deleted

[Mary Terry]

It does make sense that he is an Aspie. I'll watch that particular episode again because I thought the first time I saw it that he wasn't autistic although others thought he might be. And he does love Louisa and their baby but is very poor about expressing it! Hope it's still on Netflix.

My beloved virtually non-speaking autistic nephew tells me he loves me when I tell him I love him which thrills my heart every time. He struggles to volunteer words so has to be prompted to talk about most everything. He doesn't like body hugs so we put our hands together and lock our fingers together in a soft squeeze. That's our secret hug. It speaks volumes without words; it says all I need to know.

 

[Peatsmoke]

I've never given this whole subject any real thought before but since being in a relationship with an Aspie I've asked many friends, coworkers, family etc. how they experience love, thinking I may be some sort of exception but everyone I've asked (NT's) all describe it the way I do. Also, everyone I know at this age has been in love, cripes, most are married. Maybe it's common for Aspies to not realize what NT's feel when they're in love because like someone else said on here, you don't know what you don't know.

When the subject was brought up a couple of years into our relationship that he rarely says I love you, he insisted that's how all relationships are...in his mind...who the heck says that all the time?!? In an attempt to prove his point he text several of his friends and family (guys) and asked them how often they tell their wife or gf and they all said everyday. He was shocked. Still didn't help him any to get the words out of his mouth though...

Well, OK, but if someone asked me "How do you experience love?", and if I wanted to appear "normal", I would probably say something including the words "warm intense feeling", "connectedness", etc. And NTs are really good at knowing what's "normal" to say. Similarly, how many people will admit they've never really been in love? Or that marriage does not necessarily equal love (possibly the understatement of the century)? There's an interesting article at Live Science giving a list of "scientifically proven signs that you're in love" (!), presumably for NTs, that includes very little about "warm intense feelings" but does include a lot of quite negative and unpleasant items.

Hmmm... Maybe saying "I love you" every day is a cultural thing? I mean, here in this country (the Czech Republic) it's certainly not normal to do that (according to my Czech NT friends/colleagues, anyway, even the ones in their 20s). It's considered a bit over the top. Older British people often seem to feel the same way. It may have been considered normal for people to say this in some Western cultures over the last... what... 40-50 years? But to say this is the global, permanent NT norm is not really possible.

Anyway, it kind of reminds me of Ford Prefect's observations on human beings, written from the perspective of someone who is literally stuck on the wrong planet: (sorry, this isn't a personal attack; notice that he does finally abandon his theory!)

• One of the things Ford Prefect had always found hardest to understand about humans was their habit of continually stating and repeating the very very obvious, as in It's a nice day, or You're very tall, or Oh dear you seem to have fallen down a thirty-foot well, are you alright? At first Ford had formed a theory to account for this strange behaviour. If human beings don't keep exercising their lips, he thought, their mouths probably seize up. After a few months' consideration and observation he abandoned this theory in favour of a new one. If they don't keep on exercising their lips, he thought, their brains start working. After a while he abandoned this one as well as being obstructively cynical.

 

[Bolletje]

He says he's willing to go to counseling to try to get to the bottom of why he feels so uncomfortable with expressing his feelings and to maybe learn how to get past it. Part of me wants to push him to go and part wants to just let him be and we stop trying to work things out.

A catch 22.....

I think it's a good idea to support the idea of him going into counseling, not with getting back together as a goal, but for him to get comfortable with his own emotions. It's not a given that he will express more love through therapy, this could just be how he's wired.

If he does discover he represses emotions, and starts feeling comfortable expressing them, and the two of you still want to try getting back together (that's a lot of "if") that's great.

Just make sure you're not pushing him into therapy with the intent to "fix" him to suit your needs. Make sure that if he goes into therapy, he does it because he wants to. Support, but don't coerce. At least, that's my opinion.

 

[Bolletje]

The more of your posts I read, the more sorry I start to feel for both of you. For this guy for not being able to live up to your expectations, and for you for wanting something that you're very likely not going to get.

You're obviously in a very emotional place right now, and I might be misinterpreting your posts? But to me it seems, time and again, like you want him to be someone he's clearly not. You want him to change to fit your standards and your needs. You want him to be what you expect a 42-year old person in a relationship to be like.

I can imagine you're feeling emotionally neglected, that's very clear from your post, and perceived neglect is poison for relationships. I think @OkRad said it before, you should be with someone that makes you happy. This just might not be the person for you.

Some people will never experience feelings the way you do. Some people will never express their feelings. Some people choose not to fake feelings because their partners demand it. Whether it's his childhood, his Aspergers, his personality or something else, this is apparently who he is.

Reading your last post, I really think you should either adjust your expectations or get out of this relationship.
Find someone who cares as much about Valentine's Day as you do. Find someone as affectionate as you are. You might be a lot happier.

Just like he might be a lot happier with someone that doesn't need to be told they're loved to know it's true, someone who doesn't get upset when he doesn't proclaim his love on Valentine's Day, someone who doesn't need a son much emotional maintenance as you seem to do.

I don't mean to make you the bad guy in this story, but I get the feeling you're putting all your hopes into him changing into the person you want. You clearly have completely different emotional needs and it's hurting you both. Just be realistic about the chance of those needs being met for both of you if you remain together.

 

[tfwo]

It sounds as if I am in the same dilemma as your ex. My wife does not understand my way of understanding. To the best of my knowledge, I have never known love as I have seen it commonly presented by others. But with that being said, I would not hesitate to sacrifice my own life and wellbeing for my wife and children. In fact I continually push myself to the limits of what I can tolerate, in order to try to accommodate their needs and desires, sometimes doing so to the point that my health and wellbeing are placed in jeopardy. As best as I can tell, I see no indication that they even notice, even when I matter of factly tell them of my plight, which sometimes leads me to wander if they really care. But I carry on none the less, trying to support and provide for them as best as I can. Now as I write this, it sounds like a devotion of love to me, but I do not feel that love as the average person would. Because of my not feeling love, I can not say that I'm in love, because for me that feels like a lie, and I don't want to live with the burden of a lie. My wife does not understand, this and distances herself from me. I suspect that you might find yourself in a similar position

 

[tfwo]

That's what he says as well - he doesn't know what being in love feels like. He's 42 years old so its not like we're inexperienced individuals here. It just boggles my mind to hear someone say at that age, they don't know what it feels like to be in love. He just assumes he feels that way for someone based on his actions towards them.

Being in love is the most amazing feeling....I cant imagine going through life not ever experiencing it. So it sort of gives me an uncomfortable feeling being with someone knowing they will never actually feel that feeling for me.

Do you and your husband say the words I love you to each other regularly?

My ex has told me that he never says that to anyone first (including family) and when he's basically forced to say it because someone said it to him, he feels very uncomfortable, like he's saying it in front of an audience of 100 people.

LOL...That is so much like myself.

 

[xudo]

I'm sure they care a tremendous amount, it's just so hard sometimes to understand how Aspie's (I'm going to be blunt but very honest) seem to be missing parts of what makes someone a human being.

We're not missing them, we just experience and show things differently. We are still human beings, and while I'm sure you will reply saying that you did specifically say "seem to", that doesn't really make it any better. Pretty much everyone has come to this thread and given advice about how each one of us experiences emotions in different ways and may even show them differently to how NT's do or not show them at all. It doesn't mean that they're missing from us.

it's just such an unfamiliar and uncomfortable feeling to me to not really FEEL it, or hear it very often for that matter.

And to many of us, it would be such an unfamiliar and uncomfortable feeling to hear it or say it ever.

 

[xudo]

That's something you can guarantee from me in my participation on this site, I will tell it like it is from the NT's perspective, even if it doesn't smell like roses.

Something the vast majority of us have and do experience every single day. We hear all the time how NT's see things, because we ultimately live in an NT world, where we do not fit in and are made to feel like it.

 

[Bolletje]

@twilightzone76 Please do yourself (and us) a favor and

a) don't insult the people you're asking advice from
b) don't ask for advice if you're going to disregard or argue with all of it.

I understand your need to vent, but in that case, just be honest about it. Because at this point your thread mostly seems to be about how the evil aspies are hurting your feelings because we lack humanity.

 

[Judge]

I'm sure they care a tremendous amount, it's just so hard sometimes to understand how Aspie's (I'm going to be blunt but very honest) seem to be missing parts of what makes someone a human being. Instinctively, this does make us distance ourselves to try to avoid the pain and anger of interacting with someone that comes across as completely heartless.

I personally have been going through life naively thinking everyone has empathy or experiences feeling of deep love within the core of their being. I work in the medical field and didn't even know anything about Aspergers until I started researching my bf's behavior. I went on for quite a while thinking he was just being a self-centered jerk. It took almost 2 years of digging and digging to get to the bottom of how he really thinks and feels. I wasn't asking the right questions, such as how do you feel love inside, have you ever experienced a broken heart or how does it make you feel when I push you to express emotions because these seemed like rhetorical questions. I never expected to get the answers I got. It makes my brain hurt when I try to wrap my head around his ways of thinking or ways of not thinking or feeling.

Somehow though, we cannot stay away from each other. I wonder at times if we are both just gluttons for punishment and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I believe he loves me, his family and even his ex-wife have told me they know he loves me but it's just such an unfamiliar and uncomfortable feeling to me to not really FEEL it, or hear it very often for that matter.

In the beginning he barely showed any affection, for example, we could be laying next to each other watching a movie and he would really touch me. Now he's much more affectionate and caresses me a lot but then other times when we're out and about I feel it would be nice for him to put his arm around me or give me a kiss. It feels at times like he's treating me no different than he would a friend. I've tried explaining to him that he should do things that he would never do in just a platonic relationship - sometimes this puts a spark in his mind and sometimes not. He buys me lots of gifts and takes me out to expensive dinners and to him, this proves his love. It frustrates me but I'm realizing that I need to show him what to do - kiss him first or physically take his hand and put it around me. Then he gets a look on his face like, oh yes...that's right. Same with verbalizing his love for me - he has periods where he is much better with that but when we have a conflict any expression of love goes out the window. He doesn't understand that expressing your love can actually help get us OUT of the conflict. He doesn't have any difficulty with saying I love you over the phone or in a text, but if we are not getting along, that stops all together. This is when I start doubting that he really loves me. To me, true love cannot be turned off and on like a switch but to him he's not turning if off, he's just ignoring it to protect himself in certain circumstances. This is completely abstract to me as I can't imagine being able to ignore my love, it's there whether I like it or not. Which is probably why he has never had a broken heart and I have.

I have explained to him that it is not smart for anyone to just assume someone loves them strictly based on their actions. I know a couple of people who were in marriages that seemed all fine and dandy until one day their spouse said suddenly said they wanted a divorce. Neither one had been saying the words I love you for quite a while but it wasn't a red flag because in their minds, they were still playing the part of husband and wife. I truly believe if it's not said, those feelings just might not be there.

I've heard many NT's say they feel like they are interacting with another species and sometimes it really does feel that way. I'm sure your family knows how far you try to go outside the box to be mentally and physically present with them - but I think the fact that they probably feel they are doing the same to understand you makes it hard for them to show appreciation for it.

I know my bf and I were put in each other life for a reason, although sometimes I swear it was just to drive me crazy or to teach me some lesson. I have learned a tremendous amount about myself along the way and he has learned a lot about himself as well. No matter what happens with our relationship, I know we will always hold onto the solid friendship we have developed.

Sorry for going on and on - sometimes it just all comes flowing out. I feel the pain on both sides of this....I really do.

I'd think that the reality of most successful mixed relationships remains an ability of both to accept each other as is. Which appears to be neither you or him. Whether he truly loves you or not, the likelihood of his "coming around" to the NT perspective that you crave on your terms is remote at best.

I can only honestly suggest that you seek the Neurotypical man of your dreams who meets the Neurotypical needs and desires you have so earnestly expressed. I wouldn't consider this failure. Just a form of incompatibility.

 

[xudo]

@twilightzone76 Please do yourself (and us) a favor and

a) don't insult the people you're asking advice from
b) don't ask for advice if you're going to disregard or argue with all of it.

I understand your need to vent, but in that case, just be honest about it. Because at this point your thread mostly seems to be about how the evil aspies are hurting your feelings because we lack humanity.

This is essentially what I wanted to say, but I couldn't think of a way to put it that didn't make me come across as a full on crazy person. Thankfully, you managed to put it far more eloquently.

 

[orphan]

Perhaps you relate more than you realize?

You cannot understand how he doesn't feel.
You kind of "need" to know... or else you're out.

He may not understand why you need to know.
To be able to continue "loving" you... he needs to help you be okay with not understanding, or else you're out.

My ex used to ask all the time.. same insecurity. Sorry.
I never knew what to say.
Would you ask a blind person "WHY, WHY can't you just effing see?" Of course not.

You are basically saying, "I can't handle dating a blind man."

I believe you said he has a child. Do you "know" he loves that child? Of course. Can you accept the same truth about yourself? Is that enough?

If not... you do relate more than you know.

 

[girlwonders]

Something the vast majority of us have and do experience every single day. We hear all the time how NT's see things, because we ultimately live in an NT world, where we do not fit in and are made to feel like it.

This. Right there. To any NT that is going to be in a relationship with an Aspie.

My xaspie and I went to school together from kindergarten until he graduated out early. When we reconnected later, and he told me about his late adult diagnoses and a lot of things I recalled from our growing years made sense. I researched a lot, and read over and over and over again how those on the spectrum really struggled to feel accepted, and are constantly trying to monitor themselves. Often they are anxious about hurting other peoples feelings or sending the wrong impression.

I am the type of person, when I have someone close to me, I look for ways that I can enrich the other persons life. Everybody had a unique sorts of gaps in their human experience that need filling. In his case, and I expect most Aspies what they need more than anything is to feel accepted as they are for who they are. (Dont we all? but for Aspies I think generally feeling like they dont belong, or fit makes this need far more pronounced)

I made the decision early on after we became friends as adults to make a concerted effort to accept my xaspie completely in his natural, unguarded state, which in the beginning meant swallowing some feelings until I was able to 'decode' certain behaviors, and ask for what I needed without it being about blame.

Often, I discovered that the problem wasnt necessarily that he was doing something 'wrong' but more a case of how I perceived things.

As to the original post I dont think anybody experiences love the same way - period. I dont think the same person experiences love the same way twice.

In my life, I have experienced several long term relationships. In every one of them I would have told you I loved my partner. Looking back over the fullness of time Ive come to realize that the way that 'felt' was different everytime.

I've also learned 'feeling' love is not necessarily a great reason to continue in a relationship. The real question is are you doing love? When you really 'do love' the feeling of love often comes with it but in a deeper more mature and meaningful way than simply 'feeling' in love does.

 

[orphan]

Perhaps your bf is the one that truly does understand what unconditional love is....

 

[girlwonders]

I think saying "accept someone for who they are" is rather abiguous. Seriously, if everyone just accepted themselves for who they are there wouldn't be any self growth, self reflection, evolving into a better version of yourself. I think a person is really selling themselves short if they never want to learn ways to "do life better".

It depends on what you view your role, and how you want to express your love for a person. For me, it is about giving a person what they need. In my xaspie and alot of aspies cases (im guessing) feeling accepted is something that is extremely rare for them. I have never considered it my job, as someones partner, to 'help them evolve into a higher version of themselves' From my experience - thats something that comes from within. Pressure from their lover only serves to make them feel inadequate and less than... something I suspect a lot of aspies feel a lot.

You are not his mom, or his teacher.

Unconditional love is about meeting a person where they are at, not constantly suggesting ways to change who they are so they fit YOUR ideal better.

It means supporting the changes THEY CHOOSE that THEY feel are important. Certainly - learning each others 'love language' is important. Just as he should learn to express love in a way that you can understand it - so should you. Just as he should learn to decode your love messages and understand that they are messages of love, so should you. He is not 'wrong' for being who he is. He is just different, and if you love someone who is different, you accept and learn to work with those differences - not require that he change them.

 

[Judge]

So, why does a man continue to try to make it work with a woman if he felt I was trying to make him into something he's not??

For some of us, caring for someone in their heart is not quite the same as emotionally sustaining a relationship in their mind. That there can be a "disconnect" between the two no matter how much he may care for you. It's a costly dynamic I know well personally. Like empathy, I have it in my heart. But that's no guarantee I can successfully project it in a way another expects or can understand.

Then factor in that many of us spend a lifetime of being expected to correspond to what Neurotypicals either demand or expect. That it's routine for us to try, even if we cannot fulfill such demands in whole or in part. Even though it can be emotionally costly.

If you're looking for logic in such things, don't. You won't necessarily find it.

I'm only now coming to a point of self-awareness where there are NT demands I will no longer attempt to yield to. Otherwise I've spent my life compromising and masking my traits and behaviors to accommodate the NT world.

 

[Judge]

I have also told him I don't want him to work on anything he doesn't feel is an issue, yet he insists on continuing to try.

This says more about him than you.

That the more he tries, the more he fails. Even though in your mind he's not doing anything he doesn't want to attempt. He may be locked in what amounts to a vicious cycle of behavior. All to pacify you. He clearly cares, but simply cannot deliver. Yet his ego may preclude him from giving up.

The more you ask him if he feels like you're trying to change him, the more compelled he may feel to try. Even when it's not your actual intent. With you waiting for him to improve, which doesn't happen.

Kobayashi Maru...a "no-win" scenario.

 

[paloftoon]

The communication that is taught as schools for people on the spectrum is generally for lower functioning needs such as manners and every day life chores I believe. I don't think subjects such as love and dating are touched upon in these type of settings because it would have to be a school for adults or through talking with friends and interacting in-person or online that one might learn such things. People on the spectrum tend to be more practical and rigid- it depends on the person of course. Actions are one way of showing love- I see nothing wrong with this. His actions alone can imply the words and feelings that you are hoping to hear. If you feel that telling him what to do is too robotic and that it ruins the mood for you, that is understandable. For him, it doesn't make sense for him to do these abstract, emotional concepts, so it does not come to him. Some people have it, and some people just don't. It seems he enjoys developing love through actions more only. I see nothing wrong with this.

I would recommend you try to stay as platonic friends or discuss and agree to specifics with benefits only. I agree with everyone else that you are trying to make him something that he doesn't want to be and can't comprehend fully. They are two different kinds of love, and they are both okay. At this point, if you can't be open, just move on. Neither of you did anything wrong- it is just two different approaches where it seems neither is able to open up enough to the other.

 

[Judge]

The thing is, he's come a long my way since we first met. In the beginning he was not affectionate at all, now he seems to have little problem with that. His overall communication has improved as well, it's just not consistent (and maybe never will be). I think the fact that he knows things with us have improved with us over the last couple years gives him the drive to keep trying. This is just with us working on it ourselves....he's looking for a therapist so it will be interesting to see if they think he should continue to try to work on these skills or just be how he is...

I'm inclined to think what you are observing and interpreting is not a manifestation of social or neurological adaptation, but rather social and neurological mimicry. Not genuine adaptation. That's why it will never be consistent or likely enough to truly pacify you. What you see is not what you're actually getting. I think it's critical for you not only to understand the difference, but not to honestly expect anything beyond this.

The more you project to him verbally or otherwise that he should continue to try and improve, the more likely he will resent it inside, to a point where he melts down and leaves you in disgust. Or runs away like Cinderella at midnight when he can no longer keep up the mimicry as he's exhausted himself, yet determined not to expose the "masquerade". An ugly place to be, and I've been in both of them.

Mimicry may seem very real to you, and that's why higher functioning people on the spectrum like myself are likely to pursue it. However it can never be a substitute for comprehensive adaptation to a neurological mindset we simply don't possess and can't learn to be fluent in like a foreign language.

 

[girlwonders]

Twilight said "The thing is, he's come a long my way since we first met. In the beginning he was not affectionate at all, now he seems to have little problem with that. His overall communication has improved as well, it's just not consistent (and maybe never will be). I think the fact that he knows things with us have improved with us over the last couple years gives him the drive to keep trying. This is just with us working on it ourselves....he's looking for a therapist so it will be interesting to see if they think he should continue to try to work on these skills or just be how he is..."

Look at what you said: Does that sound like something someone who believes they are in an equal partnership would say? 'he's come a long way' 'He knows things have improved with us (because of the changes he has made) and it gives him drive'

Yes, he will have drive to be something different for you up until he burns out - shuts down - walks away from the relationship... This is kind of my point.

I dont know you, or him. certainly if things are working, you wouldnt be seeking answers from a forum of strangers.

I am trying to point out something rather important here. I am not trying to rain on your parade or be a debbie downer. It is a fact with ALL relationships that if you are trying to 'fix' your partner you are with the wrong partner.

With aspies - this is even more important for THEIR well being. They live in a world that is constantly trying to remake them. It is exhausting to constantly be 'on' and fighting the instincts that come naturally to them. It is damaging to live always as though you are 'wrong' for being who you are. You are constantly whittling away pieces of yourself to fit your square peg in the round hole the world provides.

I am suggesting that, when you love someone, accepting all of their idiosyncrasies AS THEY ARE is especially important. We all need a place where we can take off our mask and just be ourselves. Usually, this happens in our homes. If in our home we ALSO have a person who requires us to also be something other than what we naturally are ... Home doesnt seem so inviting anymore. Its not comfortable. (does that even make a little sense to you?)

You talk a lot about the changes HE is making, and steps HE is taking to make your guys' relationship better for you. Can I ask - all things being equal - what YOU are doing to change FOR HIM?

What if, we turned it all around and said to you - Now you have to change the way you are for him. He is not broken, YOU are. YOU need to want less, and expect less and feel less. (or what have you) You need to fit into him, not the other way around. If you dont, you will lose him, because it is your fault for not making yourself feel the way he needs you to feel.

pretty tall order eh? Imagine a lifetime of the world telling you are wrong. Easy to understand why he might not feel 'you are trying to change him' because the world has been trying to change him his entire life. it is, par for the course for him. He knows he is different, trust me. he knows he *should* be some other way to fit into the world.

I suspect this is why you get the conflicting messages from him. He probably does have real feelings for you, and he knows in order to satisfy you he has to be something different than what he is. He is 'wrong' after all the world has told him that over and over and over again. he TRIES to be what you want - but - it is emotionally/physically/mentally draining for him. That is when he pushes you away.

You want to stand out in this mans mind? You want to be 'the one' for him? Then learn to love him as he is naturally.... That IS who he IS.