Bullying

[Aspychata]

@LuxLuca and @Atrapa Almas

Just a short message. Not trying to be defensive, and LuxLuca I don't post if I'm hyped up on adrenaline I'm neither offended nor trying to offend, but I apologize if I failed with the second.

I'm doing all this posting mostly because of all the violence-centric posts. (This excludes my "lawyer up" one early on of course)

I used to work bars while I was studying. I've seen what happens when untrained people flail away at each other (random, and I've seen some moderately nasty accidental injuries). I've also seen what happens when trained or experienced people match up with untrained people. In this case the injuries aren't random, but they can happen.

So mostly I'd like to see a lot less of people in this thread implying or suggesting violence might be the answer - including reminiscing over a "random vs random" victory.

The other stuff is mostly incidental. For example any discussion of the "doormat method" seems to reliably induce its opposite. But I probably over-reacted to those posts..

I won't stop advocating against violence. But I'm happy to let everything else go.

@Atrapa Almas

I actually wrote a response to your "martial arts training is good" post, which I liked a lot;, agree with; and have experienced directly myself (5 years or so, and it got me out of some fights, and helped never get into one).
Unfortunately the thread went "high intensity" as I was writing it, so my post is saved, but there's nowhere to post it.

Maybe I'll share it via a conversation later

We actually have quite a lot of conversations at this forum without anybody leading anybody. There is actually very intelligent people who don't need leaders in posts. Not sure why you decided to elect yourself to that position. I have been coming to this forum for some time and have never seen somebody who decided to elect themselves as the "leader". It's seems a tab arrogant to me.

This is free flow of opinions and experiences. The OP is always welcome to steer the tone as they wish.

 

[Jonn]

It's teasing and not bullying in both circumstances since the intent was to poke fun for their own amusement and not to maliciously harm the boy.

Give it up mate.
The child can't handle the bullying.
Those on the spectrum have emotion management problems.
Most people can't handle gang attacks no matter their age.

 

[Jonn]

I think the responses in this thread are legitimate proof of how many kids lose their lives to bullying and cyberbullying.

Bullies often have blood on their hands.

 

[Jonn]

Some NT kids can handle the bullying. Others cannot. NT children who are gay, have disabilities different from autism, come from ethnic backgrounds different from the bullies, and many other NT children suffer enormously from bullying.

There is not one answer to fit all situations, agreed.

 

[All-Rounder]

I wasn’t going to respond to this thread because it’s an emotional topic for me, but if I can help save just one child from having to go through what I suffered then my emotional pain is worth putting up with. The price is fair.

The name calling and teasing soon develops in to physical abuse. Some teachers will also join in with verbal abuse and egg the other kids on, actively supporting the abuse.

My father’s attitude of “They’re kids, they’ll sort it out.” was a betrayal.

In all of my yearly school photos my nose is a different shape and in a different position on my face.

I got kicked in the nuts that many times that they retreated back up in to my abdomen and I was never able to sire children.

My brow beaten and down trodden character made me more attractive to paedophiles – also teachers.

It was the most traumatic period of my entire life and the only thing that got me through it was the knowledge that the day I turned 16 I could leave and I would never have to see any of them again.

My sister tried to teach me how to look after myself. She explained to me that I was a lot smaller than everyone else and my wrists were too skinny so I couldn't fight like they did, I had to fight according to how I was built. She taught me quite a few things, like punching with the heel of my hand instead of a fist so my wrists didn't break, and how to pick on nerve and pressure points. And if a man is a lot bigger than you don't fight the whole man, just attack one arm until it doesn't work any more.

When Louise fought there was never any hissing and scratching, she usually opened with a headbutt. The only time she ever grabbed anyone's hair it was for extra force and accuracy as she brought her knee up. Most of the kids in school were scared of her, even the older ones, she was the enforcer that settled all arguments. My problem was psychological though, not physical. If I ever got angry like I did with my brother I could have flattened any of them, but they never made me angry, they just made me sad. They'd belt the crap out of me and I'd just try to get away, I never fought back.

Many years later as an adult I discovered that if I lose my temper I can be a particularly scary example of what humanity has to offer, but I only ever got that angry when I saw someone else being picked on, especially women. When someone attacks me the anger doesn't come, it's just shock, surprise and bone deep sadness.

I caught three boys picking on a little kid one day, all about 11 years old, when I was living in Melbourne. The reaction was pure instinct, there was no conscious thought involved, it just happened while I watched myself do it. Two were holding the skinny kid's arms and a third had just punched him in the face, I walked in behind him and cuffed that third kid behind the ear exactly the same as my father used to do to me.

I really didn't hit him hard, no worse than my father would have done to me, but the shock of it knocked him off his feet and he fell over. His two mates ran. Granny Carter came out in me, I looked down at him and said "Well!?", he got up and ran too. The little skinny kid was crying through a blood nose but he thanked me. I told him "That's alright, don't worry about it. One day you'll be all grown up and then you'll stick up for little kids too, won't you?"

The look on that kid's face is one of my most treasured memories, it wasn't a single expression, it was a transformation through several of them. It was like I could see all the thoughts shifting across his face as they formed, it must be how other people see me. It took a few seconds and I watched while I waited for a response.

Fear. Relief. Gratitude for being saved. Gratitude for being understood. Gratitude for lack of useless platitudes. Hope. Determination. "Yes!" he said, "I will!". I smiled and nodded to him like tradesmen do to each other and left. I did a good thing.

I noticed that if I work for someone else it's like you said, it gives you a strength you didn't know you had. That's why it's important to try and be active even as to ask a person who's getting through sexual harrassment on the street if they're okay. Being united makes us stronger.

It's the reason why I'm able to help aggressive dogs regardless of risks of getting mawled. It's the reason I can think if I stand up to something against myself and call it out it will help the next woman or the next person by getting the offender to think twice.

 

[All-Rounder]

I'm not only a parent, but I was your kid, 60 years ago. So first of all, ignore the advice about lawyers. School districts will go to the Supreme Court over the value of a postage stamp. Their goal is to crush you, and they have all the public money they need to do it. You may be right, but you won't win.

The next thing is, they never have, and never will, deal with bullying. In fact, they will encourage it. They will ask your kid what he did to cause it. Bullying is the nature of our society. As soon as you're different, you're a target.

When I went to school, we didn't have the thing they now call "special education." I have heard from several younger people that their experiences improved in such places. On the other hand, if your child needs advanced topics, this might not be the best.

Mainly, I'm responding to encourage you, if you can afford it, to find a more appropriate school experience for you child. Perhaps there are more resources today than when I was a student your child's age. All I know is, it was a miracle I survived.

If the court's corrupt then what about the media presenting the case? Could the school sue for defamation and the people lose the suit, since the supreme court is corrupt?

 

[All-Rounder]

Give it up mate.
The child can't handle the bullying.
Those on the spectrum have emotion management problems.
Most people can't handle gang attacks no matter their age.

The unfair advantage of harm, power and numbers, with gangs and group bullying. How is one person supposed to fight them all. Such expectation is unreasonable. To see one as weak against another is illogical as it is to see one against numbers. People aren't created the same.

 

[Jonn]

The unfair advantage of harm, power and numbers, with gangs and group bullying. How is one person supposed to fight them all. Such expectation is unreasonable. To see one as weak against another is illogical as it is to see one against numbers. People aren't created the same.

It is even worse when institutionalised bullying by the establishment is involved.

 

[AluxCinAmoon]

It's teasing and not bullying in both circumstances since the intent was to poke fun for their own amusement and not to maliciously harm the boy. In the second case, the boy's emotional suffering occurred due to his own negative thinking and not because the word "carrot" harmed him.

Teaching him that his own thinking caused him to feel worse would help him understand and regulate his emotions which would help him make friends and grow up to be a resilient, emotionally mature adult. Blaming the other children by punishing them or switching schools teaches children that other people control their emotions (a cognitive distortion known as a control fallacy) which can make them feel like helpless victims and increase the likelihood of them developing a mental illness.

Regardless of whether you call it teasing or mild bullying, my advice is the same either way. Science is very clear that personal responsibility leads to resilience while blaming problems on everyone else is a major risk factor for mental illness and poor outcomes.

So, in your mind, bullying is ok because people deserve to be punished for having emotions. Friendly reminder that this is the Autism Support Forum, not the Sociopathy Support forum.

 

[Au Naturel]

So, in your mind, bullying is ok because people deserve to be punished for having emotions. Friendly reminder that this is the Autism Support Forum, not the Sociopathy Support forum.

I think the point is that one can learn not to take offense. One can choose how to react to a comment. How you react controls your mental state. Nobody is being punished for anything, just learning a better way to react. This life skill is equally important regardless of what level of intervention the school does or if it does nothing at all.

There will always be someone calling you a name. How you react will determine how the interaction will affect you.

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

I think the point is that one can learn not to take offense. One can choose how to react to a comment. How you react controls your mental state. Nobody is being punished for anything, just learning a better way to react. This life skill is equally important regardless of what level of intervention the school does or if it does nothing at all.

There will always be someone calling you a name. How you react will determine how the interaction will affect you.

I agree to a point with this. Sometimes a comment that you didn’t like isn’t worth getting upset over and it is better to just ignore it and say nothing. But if it is something that is constantly repeated or racist then you should say that you don’t like it when that is said without getting upset. If it continues then it is bullying.

 

[Shamar]

I think the point is that one can learn not to take offense. One can choose how to react to a comment. How you react controls your mental state. Nobody is being punished for anything, just learning a better way to react. This life skill is equally important regardless of what level of intervention the school does or if it does nothing at all.

There will always be someone calling you a name. How you react will determine how the interaction will affect you.

Yes, you can learn to ignore that sort of thing. I feel the words of idiots, jerks, and drunks are not woth reacting to, like water off a duck's back. As Bruce Lee once said, "Do not allow words to control you." A sucker punch to the gut is another matter. I will react, and I will defend myself to the best of my ability. That includes breaking bones if necessary.

 

[Au Naturel]

Childhood teasing and bullying is another instinctive behavior. You can see it quite clearly in other animals. I don't think there is a social mammal out there that doesn't have a hierarchical dominance structure. Teasing and bullying and how you respond to it are how it sorts out.

It is something that can probably be reduced but since it is baked into us, it can probably never be eliminated. Even if you live in a protected space, the minute you leave that space, guess what? And even if a school does manage to curtail bullying or teasing forcefully, it finds other ways to express itself.

To be effective, a school has to help the bully to be less of a bully while helping the bullied to be less of a target. Focusing on just one or the other doesn't help nearly as much.

 

[AluxCinAmoon]

Just because something isn't worth reacting too doesn't mean it's easy to ignore. Just because you are a robot who makes all autistic people look bad doesn't mean everyone is, or that we are worse/worth less than because of it.

 

[MildredHubble]

I thought we were supposed to be more evolved than animals? I think it is worth noting that in animal societies there are plenty of examples of deadly violence in both directions.

Bullying is simple. Step 1: Push someone's buttons to provoke a reaction. Step 2: If reaction is not achieved, up the ante. Step 3: Check for reaction, if reaction is not achieved, repeat step 2. Step 4: When reaction is achieved, respond with righteous indignation to a) make it look like the victim's fault, b) gaslight the victim and c) make it appear that there is no causal link between YOUR BEHAVIOUR and the response of the victim.

The prime objective is to provoke an emotional response and the behaviour will not cease until that objective is achieved. No matter how stoic the victim is, it will continue until they respond, and when they do the cycle begins again.

There is no excuse for bullying behaviour. If it's ok to bully because "animals do it" then why do we find it unacceptable to beat eachother to death? Animals do that too, often when bullied by other animals. Reasoning by analogy is not true reasoning.

The people who need to moderate their behaviour are the bullies. Full stop. No "ifs", "ands" or "buts".

Teaching victims to be quiet might give others an easy life. But it damages people. Damaged kids become damaged adults.

Anyone who recommends people just learn to change their reaction and the problem will go away is a prize idiot. If you don't understand why, read my previous paragraph on the steps involved in bullying.

Blaming victims is faulty reasoning. It is also lazy reasoning.

 

[Outdated]

This was the first time that I stood up to a bully. Sort of. In first year high school. One of the kids in my class told me that I was going to do his maths homework for him or he was going to beat the crap out of me and gave me his school books.

I didn't stand up to him at the time but on my way home I realised that no matter what I did I was going to get picked on and beaten up anyway. Nothing would ever change that, and if it was going to happen any way then there was no point in me being someone else's (b word). I walked past the back of the Fish and Chip shop and dropped all of his books in the dumpster.

The next morning at school he asked me where his homework was and I told him I threw it in the bin. Instead of beating the crap out of me he told the teacher and we both got sent to see the headmaster. I got the cane across my hands a few times for destruction of school property but I took it with a smile on my face, it was worth it. And the bullying got a little less after that.

 

[MildredHubble]

This was the first time that I stood up to a bully. Sort of. In first year high school. One of the kids in my class told me that I was going to do his maths homework for him or he was going to beat the crap out of me and gave me his school books.

I didn't stand up to him at the time but on my way home I realised that no matter what I did I was going to get picked on and beaten up anyway. Nothing would ever change that, and if it was going to happen any way then there was no point in me being someone else's (b word). I walked past the back of the Fish and Chip shop and dropped all of his books in the dumpster.

The next morning at school he asked me where his homework was and I told him I threw it in the bin. Instead of beating the crap out of me he told the teacher and we both got sent to see the headmaster. I got the cane across my hands a few times for destruction of school property but I took it with a smile on my face, it was worth it. And the bullying got a little less after that.

The only real thing that puts of bullies is real consequences for their actions! That bully certainly learned that, on that day!

Shows how little we have evolved though, that not all that long ago it was perfectly fine and acceptable to commit violence upon kids as a punishment.

It's an interesting conundrum isn't it? Preach against violence towards your peers, no doubt in school assemblies, but it's all fine and dandy as a punishment. Sounds like something doesn't add up to me. Evolved?! Pffft! Not really.

I'm so glad I'm not from this planet.

 

[Outdated]

....that not all that long ago it was perfectly fine and acceptable to commit violence upon kids as a punishment.

That simply didn't work with me:

https://www.autismforums.com/threads/a-christmas-story.41236/

 

[Au Naturel]

I thought we were supposed to be more evolved than animals? I think it is worth noting that in animal societies there are plenty of examples of deadly violence in both directions.

Bullying is simple. Step 1: Push someone's buttons to provoke a reaction. Step 2: If reaction is not achieved, up the ante. Step 3: Check for reaction, if reaction is not achieved, repeat step 2. Step 4: When reaction is achieved, respond with righteous indignation to a) make it look like the victim's fault, b) gaslight the victim and c) make it appear that there is no causal link between YOUR BEHAVIOUR and the response of the victim.

The prime objective is to provoke an emotional response and the behaviour will not cease until that objective is achieved. No matter how stoic the victim is, it will continue until they respond, and when they do the cycle begins again.

There is no excuse for bullying behaviour. If it's ok to bully because "animals do it" then why do we find it unacceptable to beat eachother to death? Animals do that too, often when bullied by other animals. Reasoning by analogy is not true reasoning.

The people who need to moderate their behaviour are the bullies. Full stop. No "ifs", "ands" or "buts".

Teaching victims to be quiet might give others an easy life. But it damages people. Damaged kids become damaged adults.

Anyone who recommends people just learn to change their reaction and the problem will go away is a prize idiot. If you don't understand why, read my previous paragraph on the steps involved in bullying.

Blaming victims is faulty reasoning. It is also lazy reasoning.

Nobody is blaming victims and nobody is telling victims to be quiet.

Casual teasing, which is what the OP was all about, is not the same as bullying. How you react to teasing has a great deal of impact on how it goes from there. NTs also experience teasing, and they seem to know how to handle it instinctively. It may well be that hypersensitivity to teasing is one of those social deficits that autistic children are prone to.

I was teased in grade school. I was also bullied. I know the difference. I was the smartest kid in class for years. (Hey Brainiac!) Didn't have a clue about all the social nuances involved in getting along in grade school. I was clumsy beyond belief. The only uncircumcised boy in a locker room full of boys who didn't even know circumcision was a thing. (Boy did that lead to immense amounts of teasing! )

I was also bullied a few times. Physical pain inflicted. Personal possessions destroyed. Malicious gossip spread. (Gossip is especially cruel because most humans love to gossip and it draws in people who otherwise wouldn't bully.) The difference is the motivation and the presence of malice. Of course, authorities should put an immediate stop to any bullying. But after that, a bully needs their own kind of therapy or they'll bully you in a way that can't be proven. Or move on to bully someone else. Which is good for you but shifts the bullying to another target. Twenty years later, they'll still be a bully.

How you react makes a difference. That isn't the same as not reacting. If you can learn to react to teasing better such that teasing doesn't escalate - and learn how not to let teasing hurt your feelings - you have learned something that will be valuable for your entire life.

 

[MildredHubble]

Bullying is any act that is intended to cause distress to a person.

Calling someone a vegetable is quite clearly intended to cause someone distress.

You can try to rehabilitate bare face bullying if you like @Au Naturel. But I don't think it's going to persuade anyone.