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authenticity vs invisibility... invisibility wins

It's not that I disagree with this--you're right. But at a practical level...my efforts to be "part of the body"--to be my real self and not the facade that helps me look more "normal"--resulted in driving other people away to the point where almost no one talked to me when I went back to visit our old church recently. My attempts at being open and vulnerable and real and authentic backfired big time.
As members of the church universal, we all belong. Paul says that "the members of the body which seem to be more feeble are necessary." I take "feeble" to mean folks disabled in one way or another. I think we help NTs understand what sin has done to this world.
So we're in a new church now. What have I learned that I should apply to this new group?
Being authentic = exclusion = failure
Being fake = pretend acceptance = perpetual disconnection
I hear that! I hold myself back somewhat. I don't stim in church, and that's actually an act. Being the sound guy at the one church kept people at bay; almost nobody talks to someone that looks like they're doing something, especially something technical. I could stay out of the small-talk arena, but I couldn't listen to the sermon. I stay back because it's comfortable, and I suffer the consequences: no friends.
And maybe my concept of authenticity is flawed. Maybe I'm simply revealing too much. Maybe I shouldn't mention Asperger's. Maybe I should never talk about my past. Maybe I can serve in limited capacities that never require me to challenge any sensory issues, so I can maintain the facade.
The sound board was my "limited capacity" service. But there's much that NTs don't reveal at church, and at other places too. We've all been around when somebody mentions something way too personal for the setting, like when they talk about personal hygiene in a restaurant. I think the generic American culture doesn't have a way of dealing with that kind of revelation. When it happens, the American gets big eyes and silent. I said something once, and my Filipino friend called me aside and gave me a gentle rebuke. No harm, no alarm, and he said what he said graciously and in private. His delivery was done with the ease of long practice, as if he'd grown up with it. I think it's in his culture.
But I'm tired of those theatrics. I'm tired of performing. I just want to be me with God, and with people. Is that bad? If not, then why does it bother people so much? Why do I have to work so hard to get people to like me before I can slowly, carefully, guardedly titrate a few tidbits of my real self into their reality?
We should always be authentic before God; He can see us truly anyway. But we do have to remember that the other people are broken vessels too, with their own boatload of stuff. They're already dealing with 100% of their stuff. If I show too much of me, now maybe they're dealing with 110% of stuff. They'll probably resent that extra load. After you build a relationship with someone, after the trust build, after the respect builds, then they might be willing to carry some of your stuff without resentment. But remember that by them carrying stuff you reveal to them, your load is not diminished.
I think I do my thinking for the purpose of drawing closer to God by understanding His perspective better.
Yeah, I'm the same way.
 
It's not that I disagree with this--you're right. But at a practical level...my efforts to be "part of the body"--to be my real self and not the facade that helps me look more "normal"--resulted in driving other people away to the point where almost no one talked to me when I went back to visit our old church recently. My attempts at being open and vulnerable and real and authentic backfired big time.

So we're in a new church now. What have I learned that I should apply to this new group?
Being authentic = exclusion = failure
Being fake = pretend acceptance = perpetual disconnection

And maybe my concept of authenticity is flawed. Maybe I'm simply revealing too much. Maybe I shouldn't mention Asperger's. Maybe I should never talk about my past. Maybe I can serve in limited capacities that never require me to challenge any sensory issues, so I can maintain the facade.

I'm not afraid of exploring outside my comfort zone--I've done that so many times, I can't count them. That ideal is highly valued in the church I came from especially, to the point where people seemed to believe they wouldn't be blessed by God unless they were willing to make a fool of themselves in worship or in service to Him.

But I'm tired of those theatrics. I'm tired of performing. I just want to be me with God, and with people. Is that bad? If not, then why does it bother people so much? Why do I have to work so hard to get people to like me before I can slowly, carefully, guardedly titrate a few tidbits of my real self into their reality?

This isn't just church, either. It's everywhere. It's with neighbors, with my husband's friends, with the parents of my kids' friends, with relationships from earlier in life, and with anyone else I come across.



This has only slowly come into my realm of perception. Amid the abuse and mistreatment, I was also raised with a bit of a superiority complex. It was like my mom didn't believe we were truly human--that somehow, human reality was beneath us. Somehow, God loved us more than others, and would protect us from the suffering that other humans had to endure. I can't quite explain how I got both of these extremes--extensive emotional/mental/spiritual and some sexual abuse, while also being taught to think I was "above" suffering.

For example, one of my sisters, when she had her baby, she thought she wouldn't have to deal with the hormonal mood swings that come right after giving birth. She thought she was above that. I remember her telling me how surprised she was that she would have to experience this common and very human challenge. We've all slowly grown in the realization that we're human like everyone else, that the world is not any more safe for us than for many others, that we have the same kinds of character flaws and blind spots and, yes, sin.



I think I do my thinking for the purpose of drawing closer to God by understanding His perspective better. That's not to the exclusion of mystery, but it's very important to me to define the boundaries of that mystery--the distinction between what I'm meant to know, and what is beyond my mental grasp. It's not so much for the sake of being "right" as it is for the sake of appreciating the expanse of mystery outside my reality. Does that make sense?
I think DogwoodTree ,what you really want and need is a trustworthy best friend who is safe to talk about personal issues with...without fear of rejection. I managed to find one of those but it took about 5 years of testing people in the church to find him.
Best friends are rare they take allot of time and careful social testing to find....try not to be too sad DogwoodTree ,everyone struggles to find that sort of friendship now days in our busy lives.
Just keep looking maybe you will get lucky and find your friend...try some of the more quiet people...they make better long term friends sometimes and often need a good friend too.
 
what you really want and need is a trustworthy best friend who is safe to talk about personal issues with...without fear of rejection

Yeah, maybe that's the difference between what I thought I wanted vs. what I can actually have. I'm not sure.

I watch people "hang out" and goof around and cut up with each other, and they seem to be having a really good time. And when I ask people what makes those times so good for them, they say it's because they feel accepted as they really are. But that's not the experience I have in those situations. And I've not been able to identify what I'm doing wrong that I don't feel like anyone knows the real me.

I stay back because it's comfortable, and I suffer the consequences: no friends.

The opposite didn't work for me, either, though--I reached out, way beyond what was comfortable, and still have no close friends (one is maybe a possibility, but I'm always afraid I'm going to offend her with things I think about or ask about). But at least I've eliminated a lot of possibilities, so no more "hoping" for connection with all these people who can't/won't have a real relationship with me.

We've all been around when somebody mentions something way too personal for the setting, like when they talk about personal hygiene in a restaurant.

I've made sooo many mistakes like this too, and tried to learn from them. It's been tough. But I'm well into my 40s now, and I think I have a pretty good handle on what not to talk about in certain settings.

What I don't get is how to be "known" if one never talks about certain things with people who should be trustworthy, who say they want to know the real me, who say it's okay for me to be myself, who claim they're my friend, but then they continue to avoid conversations with me and they never open up and talk about their own struggles with me. So I'm supposed to do all the vulnerability and take all the risks in pursuit of friendship?

If it's only going one way, it's not friendship.

But we do have to remember that the other people are broken vessels too, with their own boatload of stuff. They're already dealing with 100% of their stuff.

Yes, true--if the "sharing" only goes one way. But in a friendship, isn't it supposed to go both ways? Isn't the load of both people supposed to feel lighter as both loads are shared between friends?

I'm not looking to dump all of my crap on someone else. I'm not looking for a rescuer. I'm not looking for someone to "fix" me. I want to share the journey. "Here's a little of my struggle...now tell me about yours."

Am I off-base here?

What do you think a friendship should look like and feel like? Is it something you think you would even want, if you were able to find it?
 
What do you think a friendship should look like and feel like? Is it something you think you would even want, if you were able to find it?
My longest term, same-sex friendship was started in a shared pipe dream of producing comic books together. (We were on the same page as Christians, too.) Life took us in two different directions since, however.
 
Yeah, maybe that's the difference between what I thought I wanted vs. what I can actually have. I'm not sure.

I watch people "hang out" and goof around and cut up with each other, and they seem to be having a really good time. And when I ask people what makes those times so good for them, they say it's because they feel accepted as they really are. But that's not the experience I have in those situations. And I've not been able to identify what I'm doing wrong that I don't feel like anyone knows the real me.



The opposite didn't work for me, either, though--I reached out, way beyond what was comfortable, and still have no close friends (one is maybe a possibility, but I'm always afraid I'm going to offend her with things I think about or ask about). But at least I've eliminated a lot of possibilities, so no more "hoping" for connection with all these people who can't/won't have a real relationship with me.



I've made sooo many mistakes like this too, and tried to learn from them. It's been tough. But I'm well into my 40s now, and I think I have a pretty good handle on what not to talk about in certain settings.

What I don't get is how to be "known" if one never talks about certain things with people who should be trustworthy, who say they want to know the real me, who say it's okay for me to be myself, who claim they're my friend, but then they continue to avoid conversations with me and they never open up and talk about their own struggles with me. So I'm supposed to do all the vulnerability and take all the risks in pursuit of friendship?

If it's only going one way, it's not friendship.



Yes, true--if the "sharing" only goes one way. But in a friendship, isn't it supposed to go both ways? Isn't the load of both people supposed to feel lighter as both loads are shared between friends?

I'm not looking to dump all of my crap on someone else. I'm not looking for a rescuer. I'm not looking for someone to "fix" me. I want to share the journey. "Here's a little of my struggle...now tell me about yours."

Am I off-base here?

What do you think a friendship should look like and feel like? Is it something you think you would even want, if you were able to find it?
I find friendship is like planting a garden...you water it with (little) bits of kindness and interest... but if you water the garden with too much in the beginning you wash the seed away and nothing grows. It is the same with people you have to increase the level of sharing slowly are you scare them off. Just focus on small warm greetings and small conversations at the beginning on safe subjects....sharing comes after you have bonded at a high level.
And even then you have to watch you don't over share too much at one time...remember to keep asking them how they feel and think and what they like at least 50% of the time.
 
What you describe makes me think of a detour that Aspies have to take, while NTs remain on the main road. Those NTs closest to us will accompany us on the detour at times, sometimes great stretches. And we will walk with NTs on the main road a little or a lot. But neither of us, AS or NT can switch roads permanently no more then the diving bird could live totally underwater and the flying fish always in the air. Our nature is our nature, unchangeble. You can't therefore compare yourself, determine your intrinsic value in reference to the other type.
I was in an actual romantic relationship this past June-in other words, I had a boyfriend. He was really nice, really committed. Things were going well. He'd recognised on his own (due to experience with an Aspie friend) that I had Aspergers, and he didn't care.
He was perfectly accepting of me, and we had good times together. Then he broke up with me because he decided that my failure at a social life meant we were incompatible. It was the way I would go into shut downs at parties and social events that was the problem. Apparently, unknown to me, he'd been thinking he would fix that about me, and it wasn't working. But it's sad because he really did love all the times when it was just the two of us, and I did too.
I suppose breaking up was easy for him, since he'll easily be able to find someone better. But I won't.
 
I was in an actual romantic relationship this past June-in other words, I had a boyfriend. He was really nice, really committed. Things were going well. He'd recognised on his own (due to experience with an Aspie friend) that I had Aspergers, and he didn't care.
He was perfectly accepting of me, and we had good times together. Then he broke up with me because he decided that my failure at a social life meant we were incompatible. It was the way I would go into shut downs at parties and social events that was the problem. Apparently, unknown to me, he'd been thinking he would fix that about me, and it wasn't working. But it's sad because he really did love all the times when it was just the two of us, and I did too.
I suppose breaking up was easy for him, since he'll easily be able to find someone better. But I won't.

Truly sorry to hear this. I've always thought being a couple means prioritizing the relationship over everything- and everyone else. To find that special person...seems so much more precious than any party or social event.

In as much as I've experienced with people over the years it distresses me to admit that Neurotypicals continue to baffle me in so many ways. I guess this just reflects how wide the gap is between us and them in terms of nebulous socialization.

Our autism is for life. One can't just change it as if they were Professor Henry Higgins in "My Fair Lady". To truly understand our autism, means being able to accept it.
 
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I'm sorry that happened to you, it is his loss.




I was in an actual romantic relationship this past June-in other words, I had a boyfriend. He was really nice, really committed. Things were going well. He'd recognised on his own (due to experience with an Aspie friend) that I had Aspergers, and he didn't care.
He was perfectly accepting of me, and we had good times together. Then he broke up with me because he decided that my failure at a social life meant we were incompatible. It was the way I would go into shut downs at parties and social events that was the problem. Apparently, unknown to me, he'd been thinking he would fix that about me, and it wasn't working. But it's sad because he really did love all the times when it was just the two of us, and I did too.
I suppose breaking up was easy for him, since he'll easily be able to find someone better. But I won't.
 
I was in an actual romantic relationship this past June-in other words, I had a boyfriend. He was really nice, really committed. Things were going well. He'd recognised on his own (due to experience with an Aspie friend) that I had Aspergers, and he didn't care.
He was perfectly accepting of me, and we had good times together. Then he broke up with me because he decided that my failure at a social life meant we were incompatible. It was the way I would go into shut downs at parties and social events that was the problem. Apparently, unknown to me, he'd been thinking he would fix that about me, and it wasn't working. But it's sad because he really did love all the times when it was just the two of us, and I did too.
I suppose breaking up was easy for him, since he'll easily be able to find someone better. But I won't.
I am so sorry for you Ste11aeres ....he is stupid, there are guys out there that wish their ladies didn't want to party all the time.....I hope he comes to his senses and misses you.
I just found out not to long ago my ex-girlfriend is marrying a Brazillian....I'm guessing she was cheating on me with him online, when she dumped me during the engagement process...because she started talking about going on mission trips without me and a long engagement all of a sudden.
Some people just have no loyalty in love at all...Sorry!
My deepest sympathies to you Ste11aeres you deserve to be treated better.:(
He is stupid!
A Big! (((Hug!))) for you.
 
I was in an actual romantic relationship this past June-in other words, I had a boyfriend. He was really nice, really committed. Things were going well. He'd recognised on his own (due to experience with an Aspie friend) that I had Aspergers, and he didn't care.
He was perfectly accepting of me, and we had good times together. Then he broke up with me because he decided that my failure at a social life meant we were incompatible. It was the way I would go into shut downs at parties and social events that was the problem. Apparently, unknown to me, he'd been thinking he would fix that about me, and it wasn't working. But it's sad because he really did love all the times when it was just the two of us, and I did too.
I suppose breaking up was easy for him, since he'll easily be able to find someone better. But I won't.
So sorry about your loss. But he has the bigger loss, and he doesn't know it.
 
If it's only going one way, it's not friendship. ...in a friendship, isn't it supposed to go both ways? Isn't the load of both people supposed to feel lighter as both loads are shared between friends?
Yes, the command is "Bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ". Both parties in a relationship are to bear the other's burdens. The load does feel lighter if I can confess my struggle; there may be diversity of thought with a second mind thinking of the same problem, etc. (CSLewis said "Two heads are better than one, not because either is infallible, but because they are unlikely to go wrong in the same direction." The second person has emotional distance and so has a different perspective.
I'm not looking to dump all of my crap on someone else. I'm not looking for a rescuer. I'm not looking for someone to "fix" me. I want to share the journey. "Here's a little of my struggle...now tell me about yours."

Am I off-base here?
Not at all! You're on target for the way things should be.

You know, my pastor went to a conference here a few months ago, and on returning was asked about it. Talking about the people, he said "Different degrees of sanctification." A tidy way of summarizing the spectrum of Christians we encounter. On top of that, different people have different levels of expectation in a relationship: expectations of depth; time; rate at which depth increases; frequency of visits, etc., and then there's the spectrum stuff like physical proximity, volume, surroundings, textures, etc. There is a tremendous number of variables, and the lack of that internal 'compass' to help us navigate through all those variables that gives us the disadvantage.
What do you think a friendship should look like and feel like? Is it something you think you would even want, if you were able to find it?
Wow, tough questions! I would need
  • a Christian (be not unequally yoked)
  • an approximate intellectual equal (so neither of us is pulling the other along)
  • someone roughly as spiritually minded as myself (or better)
  • someone with interests generally in the same direction as mine (some different is good; too different falls apart). Did you ever read "The Four Loves" by C.S. Lewis? The thing about friendship is that, while lovers look into each other's eyes, friends together look at a third thing. So the interests have to be similar.
  • time to open up. I take a long time to figure out the cadence(?) of an individual. By cadence, I mean all those "do I talk about xyz with this person?" and "ohhh..., there's a hot button, don't talk about that" and those sorts of things. It takes me a long time, so I would need time. Maybe 'map' would be a better word.
  • Then, there would have to be some glue. Like a business, or a project, or something. Without that, I close in and people lose interest. (Hmm, that may be "I lose interest and close in." I'll have to think about that.)
But I've given my self away, haven't I? All those are "I would need..."
I think there's someone at church in whom I could find a friend, but it will have to wait; I'm on the wrong side of the planet just now (my field trip).
 
start caring less what others think. This way, those new good connections might lead to other good connections that will accept you for who you are.

Emphasis mine. Because I attribute that ability to what success I do have.

I recently read a book about Oscar Pistorius. He was nicknamed "Bladerunner" and was celebrated as someone who did not let having no lower legs stop him from becoming an amazing runner. He lost it all when he shot his girlfriend through a closed bathroom door, killing her.

All I knew was the distorted accounts in the media. It wasn't until I read a book, written by an actual journalist, that I came to see him as a victim of terrible stresses, a sad creature who lost everything he ever loved because he would not let himself see his drawbacks as well as his strengths. This is how he filled his South African home with firearms, drove himself to psychosis, and barely got sleep for weeks on end. (Home invasions are very high in South Africa -- most well off people in his suburb were also armed to the teeth.) He tried to deny the fact that when he took his prosthetic legs off for bed he was terribly vulnerable. His denial led to his downfall.

We are all at risk of the exact same thing. This is the same pressure society puts on us. We must pretend we are as good at social interaction as an NT. We must work super super hard to not make NT's make any effort whatsoever. We are not allowed to request the job adapt to us, only to adapt to the demands of the job. We are cut no slack and that is utterly wrong. It is a human rights violation.

As much as humanly possible, we should celebrate who we are and what we can do. If someone does not make the slightest effort to understand our unique gifts, and treat us as equals and friends, they are not worth our time or the incredible adaptions we try to force on ourselves.

Stop trying to be normal. It is vastly overrated. Instead, we should celebrate what we can bring to the table. Which is a considerable amount!
 
What is it about this person that makes you think a friendship with him might work out? What characteristics clue you in?
I use my Autism to cull the herd....if they react badly to it I move on, if they try to fix my autism out of me I move on....if they are too aggressive I move on.

If I find someone easygoing who kind of overlooks my differences then I try to befriend them slowly...it takes time to build a good friendship...don't expect to be best friends in 5 minutes.

Another thing I have noticed people who make friends really fast, also tend to dump them over small things really fast. The longer it takes to win a friend....the longer they tend to stick with you DogwoodTree .
 
I use my Autism to cull the herd....if they react badly to it I move on, if they try to fix my autism out of me I move on....if they are too aggressive I move on.

If I find someone easygoing who kind of overlooks my differences then I try to befriend them slowly...it takes time to build a good friendship...don't expect to be best friends in 5 minutes.

So does this mean you don't attempt to cover up your autistic characteristics when exploring new, potential relationships?

I assumed that revealing my AS is part of what comes across as "over-sharing" and appearing "needy" or "dependent."

Another thing I have noticed people who make friends really fast, also tend to dump them over small things really fast.

Yes, I've slowly come to the realization that "instant friendship" is not a good thing...that it requires process and growth over time, and that's okay. It's hard to do, because my attention is either full-on-warp-drive, or nonexistent. But I see the value in allowing the process to grow more organically, like letting plants in a garden grow naturally. That understanding has been one of the major, positive outcomes of the therapy work I've been doing.
 
So does this mean you don't attempt to cover up your autistic characteristics when exploring new, potential relationships?

I assumed that revealing my AS is part of what comes across as "over-sharing" and appearing "needy" or "dependent."



Yes, I've slowly come to the realization that "instant friendship" is not a good thing...that it requires process and growth over time, and that's okay. It's hard to do, because my attention is either full-on-warp-drive, or nonexistent. But I see the value in allowing the process to grow more organically, like letting plants in a garden grow naturally. That understanding has been one of the major, positive outcomes of the therapy work I've been doing.
I don't share everything at once but ....the autism I use as a gate keeper if it is too much they are out
 
I have found that when it comes to making relationships, falseness is not going to work.

Other people are going to scan the world for compatibility, and so should we. Superficial people with a lot of conforming tendencies are never going to work out, because they will be so bothered by someone different. And we should open up our persona to let out our true selves, just a few facets at first; the ones we do so well which also attract people.

Do we care about animals? Maybe we can volunteer at a no-kill shelter or stuff envelopes for the group.

Do we love music? Find a venue we can handle, and a group which already shares an interest.

No matter what it is, someone else likes it. Be out there with our interests, and we can find other people who are also out there with what they like.

If we present as much of our true self as the world can handle, we let the world do our pre-screening. Does 90% of the world reject us for it? Great! We are not going to waste time with them.
 
CSLewis said "Two heads are better than one, not because either is infallible, but because they are unlikely to go wrong in the same direction." The second person has emotional distance and so has a different perspective.
"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Proverbs 27:17
 
So does this mean you don't attempt to cover up your autistic characteristics when exploring new, potential relationships?

I assumed that revealing my AS is part of what comes across as "over-sharing" and appearing "needy" or "dependent."



Yes, I've slowly come to the realization that "instant friendship" is not a good thing...that it requires process and growth over time, and that's okay. It's hard to do, because my attention is either full-on-warp-drive, or nonexistent. But I see the value in allowing the process to grow more organically, like letting plants in a garden grow naturally. That understanding has been one of the major, positive outcomes of the therapy work I've been doing.
It may sound ruthless but some people seem incapable of accepting differences, they are basically a waste of time to invest much friendship in, because they will just go nuts and attack you sooner or later for being too different.
I look for the more accepting people....the quickest way to find them is to wave the autism flag. Whoever is left and doesn't run for the hills is maybe worth talking to...a harsh reality, but it does work.
I like efficiency I cut right to the bone on things....it is how I am!
I don't know if it is good or not....but I don't feel like hiding from the world anymore, it is their turn to run and hide.
 
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I'm tired of being the person no one wants to be around.

I'm tired of being the person where "Be authentic" and "Just be yourself" is bad advice.

I'm tired of being the person who ruins every potential friendship by my desire to be friends.

I'm tired of being the person whose kids are treated like weirdos because of my awkwardness, weirdness, and screwed-up-ness.

I'm tired of being such a burden to humanity...except that a true exit would be too destructive...so my goal is to be both present and invisible.

Invisibility is an art form. I'm very good at it. I've spent 4 years now trying to be more authentic with people, and screwed up dozens of relationships, and I'm done. I don't think people really mean it when they say they want people to be more authentic. A little more honest and humble, perhaps, but not truly open, not in a way that affects anyone else negatively. People don't want to be burdened with a person's reality if that reality is messy and stupid and awkward.
Welcome to
I'm tired of being the person no one wants to be around.

I'm tired of being the person where "Be authentic" and "Just be yourself" is bad advice.

I'm tired of being the person who ruins every potential friendship by my desire to be friends.

I'm tired of being the person whose kids are treated like weirdos because of my awkwardness, weirdness, and screwed-up-ness.

I'm tired of being such a burden to humanity...except that a true exit would be too destructive...so my goal is to be both present and invisible.

Invisibility is an art form. I'm very good at it. I've spent 4 years now trying to be more authentic with people, and screwed up dozens of relationships, and I'm done. I don't think people really mean it when they say they want people to be more authentic. A little more honest and humble, perhaps, but not truly open, not in a way that affects anyone else negatively. People don't want to be burdened with a person's reality if that reality is messy and stupid and awkward.
I'm tired of being the person no one wants to be around.

I'm tired of being the person where "Be authentic" and "Just be yourself" is bad advice.

I'm tired of being the person who ruins every potential friendship by my desire to be friends.

I'm tired of being the person whose kids are treated like weirdos because of my awkwardness, weirdness, and screwed-up-ness.

I'm tired of being such a burden to humanity...except that a true exit would be too destructive...so my goal is to be both present and invisible.

Invisibility is an art form. I'm very good at it. I've spent 4 years now trying to be more authentic with people, and screwed up dozens of relationships, and I'm done. I don't think people really mean it when they say they want people to be more authentic. A little more honest and humble, perhaps, but not truly open, not in a way that affects anyone else negatively. People don't want to be burdened with a person's reality if that reality is messy and stupid and awkward.
Don't feel bad (I know, easy for someone else to say), but you're far from alone.
 

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