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Asperger's confusion:

OkRad

μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος οὐλομένην
V.I.P Member
I am curious to know more about the way Aspergers was taken out of the DSM and placed under Autism. I know a few people with Aspergers who are very adamant they they are NOT mentally ill (i tend to agree) and want Aspergers not to even be under the umbrella of Autism.

I would like to ask people with Asperger's how they feel about this? Is it an illness?

When I was dxed, it was Autism NOS. It was not Aspergers and I assumed this was because I don't funciton all that well. But I learned that the amount of functioning between Aspergers and HFA and Autism NOS does not really matter when it comes to dx. This makes even less sense to me because the next dr may say I have Aspergers!

Now I do NOT function well, so if Aspergers was not in the DSM, there would not be this confusion. My dx would then be based on the fact that I was not functioning and then I could accept that whatever I had needed some help there.

So if someone functions OK in any of the categories and does not want to be considered ill, then I am confused as to why they would get the label Aspergers or anything else!

Things were good for a while when you had to SELF IDENTIFY as having a "mental illness" there in the 90's. People might throw around the word "denial" if you refused to admit it, but it was your life.

But now it seems to have gone back to where people on the outside can say, You are odd. You have Aspergers and it's a disease and an illness."

I guess I would not be so opposed if it were NOT in the dsm and was just considered like alternative way of living. Homosexuality was in the DSM once, but now, no way!
 
I would like to ask people with Asperger's how they feel about this? Is it an illness?

I was diagnosed with aspergers last october. I don't consider it an illness, but a difference in neurology.

The letter that I have from the assessment says: "has been diagnosed with a neuro-developmental presentation, with a specific diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome."
 
I am curious to know more about the way Aspergers was taken out of the DSM and placed under Autism. I know a few people with Aspergers who are very adamant they they are NOT mentally ill (i tend to agree) and want Aspergers not to even be under the umbrella of Autism.

I would like to ask people with Asperger's how they feel about this? Is it an illness?

I'd say Aspergers is as much an illness as Autism is. In the sense that they both aren't. They're all disorders that are in the DSM because there's not a simple test to determine whether someone has it, there's a long list of diagnostic criteria that one should and shouldn't have. They call it disorder or syndrome because it's a name for a collection of symptoms many of us tend to have, even though we all have our individual quirks.

Calling it an illness also implies curability, whereas autism spectrum disorders are a disorder of the central nervous system that you're born with and that will stick with you until sweet death do us part.

And my final argument against either Aspergers or Autism being an illness is that more and more neurologists and psychiatrists are coming forward with evidence that ASD is not a disability, but a different variant of neurological development. We deviate from the norm, but we're not diseased. Hence the designation 'neurotypical' for people that are "the norm".

I don't really care much either way about whether Aspergers is seen as a separate diagnosis from ASD in the DSM as it doesn't change the treatment, outlook or outcome for anyone diagnosed with either. In my humble opinion, that is. In the DSM-IV there was already talk of integrating Asperger's with ASD as it was mostly seen as 'ASD, but without language development disorder'.
When I tell someone I'm on the spectrum I usually tell them I have what used to be called Aspergers, just to clarify. Otherwise I can just tell them I'm on the spectrum but I don't have classical autism. Since most of my friends have a medical background that's pretty much all the classification they need anyway ;)
 
And my final argument against either Aspergers or Autism being an illness is that more and more neurologists and psychiatrists are coming forward with evidence that ASD is not a disability, but a different variant of neurological development.

I do agree with you. You pretty much said what was on my mind.

Whilst I do like the side that people are thinking of it as just a different way of being I can't completely agree with that approach medically. I air on the same side as Uta Frith, you do need to get those negative affects of functioning in our sociality underlined in order to receive help. It's great that doctors and many others want to now identify with the positive aspects to it but that won't make it easy to receive help from entities like disability benefit offices and the like. Hell, the reason why it's called a 'disorder' is because of it's needed for the American insurance companies to take it seriously and support it in care, at least according to Professor Simon Baron-Cohen. If those negative things aren't listed then it would make it hell to get people to take it seriously as a condition, I think.
 
i am not sure what you mean,okrad; autism [classic] isnt a mental illness so for aspergers to have become associated with it didnt make it a mental illness,there are quite a few things in the DSM/ICD that arent mental illnesses,personality disorders for example are not considered mental illnesses and are considered to be a set pattern of thinking,
because all of these conditions are identified by behaviors they are diagnosed by shrinks and grouped under those manuals.

i thought your TBI affected your functioning and added to your autism issues?
if i have understood that right,it would mean you were functioning differently when younger so its the younger years/developmental history that matter to a diagnosis,it sounds like your TBI triggered autistic burnout.

people with aspergers can be significantly affected in functioning but they are technically classed as high functioning because they are-intellectually;that is where the functioning label comes from and confuses many a autist,low functioning implies an autist with some level of intellectual disability,this affects their presentation of autism and may come with language and speech impairment,significant basic personal care needs,the need for 24 hr care,severe challenging behavior,severe social and interaction issues,the need for adaptions and devices, etc,high functioning comes with normal or above intellectual functioning which means they will function better in a mainstream society and their autism wont be very visible,but their actual physical functioning may be terrible, this is what they dont tell you in autism documentaries when they go on about LFA/HFA.
i have lived with quite a few aspies who needed 24 hr support,two of them needed 2-1 support!
 
I do agree with you. You pretty much said what was on my mind.

Whilst I do like the side that people are thinking of it as just a different way of being I can't completely agree with that approach medically. I air on the same side as Uta Frith, you do need to get those negative affects of functioning in our sociality underlined in order to receive help. It's great that doctors and many others want to now identify with the positive aspects to it but that won't make it easy to receive help from entities like disability benefit offices and the like. Hell, the reason why it's called a 'disorder' is because of it's needed for the American insurance companies to take it seriously and support it in care, at least according to Professor Simon Baron-Cohen. If those negative things aren't listed then it would make it hell to get people to take it seriously as a condition, I think.
autism in any degree isnt a overall disability.
i say that because disability is split into different models,different concepts.
the medical model of disability states that the brain is malfunctioning and can be treated in some way,it is a very negative,restrictive way of viewing autism and its also the most common way people see autism unfortunately.

the social model of disability states that society is malfunctioning, it isnt accomodating us,our environment is not adapted for our thinking and needs so in turn it causes impairment .
as someone who was severely autistic until adulthood and only recently stabilised in the past few years,i would say my condition isnt a disability either,its a way of being,but i think we do have a disability under the social model.

heres an explanation of the different disability concepts,assuming youve not looked into it already [i apologise if you have]:
Social Model vs Medical Model of disability - Disability Nottinghamshire
 
Quick off-topic remark: Nice, your post made me pick up my old Psychiatry textbook to read how they defined the differences back then in the DSM-IV :D
 
A few of us have posted many times how we believe how the DSM-IV transitioned AS into ASD with the DSM-V was heavily influenced through the development of the Affordable Care Act. A political and fiscal decision- not a medical decision.

Where politicians and insurers set out to blur neurodiversity to the point where it is more difficult to seek both help and/or government entitlements to primarily reduce costs.

Now that the ACA appears to be on the verge of being repealed in whole or in part, I can't help but wonder if there will eventually be yet another revision of what presently constitutes ASD. Of course if this happens, the question becomes whether this process will get even worse, or better. I can't say I'm optimistic about this myself.
 
There's a sort of similar trend in the Netherlands where less and less diagnoses in psychiatry are eligible for coverage from our healthcare system.
As a response to this though, psychiatrists have started giving people different diagnoses, i.e. not the diagnosis they would normally give the patient, but the closest, somewhat comparable diagnosis that does allow the patient to receive treatment without going bankrupt.
Sort of a public secret, but the government and insurance companies can't do anything about it because they're not in a position to determine someone's actual diagnosis.
 
A few of us have posted many times how we believe how the DSM-IV transitioned AS into ASD with the DSM-V was heavily influenced through the development of the Affordable Care Act. A political and fiscal decision- not a medical decision.

Where politicians and insurers set out to blur neurodiversity to the point where it is more difficult to seek both help and/or government entitlements to primarily reduce costs.

Now that the ACA appears to be on the verge of being repealed in whole or in part, I can't help but wonder if there will eventually be yet another revision of what presently constitutes ASD. Of course if this happens, the question becomes whether this process will get even worse, or better. I can't say I'm optimistic about this myself.

I agree 100% with this. I think that it is a real shame that anything other than the patients wellbeing was considered in updating the DSM.
 
I don't think of myself as disabled at all. There are distinct advantages to my mental structure, and this is becoming truer all the time in our modern world.

I feel fortunate that circumstances and drifting into the right work environment for me kept me from even knowing about my Asperger's until midlife; when my very high level of functioning led me into a job that was toooooo social at the same time my endocrine system was thrown into upheaval by menopause.

How many of us would not have any mental illnesses if our environment had not tortured us so? I wonder that all the time.
 
ASD, including Asperger's, is a condition, not an illness, in the same way that blindness, Down's syndrome, deafness, pregnancy, the menopause etc. are conditions, not illnesses.

There is confusion between h/f autism and Aspergers, and I'm beginning to wonder which of these I have myself (I'm self-diagnosed); I think of myself as h/f autistic, but when I think back to obsessions I've had, as well as those I have now, I wonder if Asperger's might not be more accurate. As I'm out of the workplace now, it doesn't matter very much, but I can see how it may matter to some people who need an accurate diagnosis, not to mention obsessing about it as part of the condition itself!

I think lines are becoming blurred as more people are being diagnosed as the sheer scope of the condition with its range and extent of symptoms becomes more and more apparent.
 
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To me Aspergers is a condition. Its the way I am and always will be. I read other peoples symptoms and think yep thats me. At this stage of life I cant see the point in putting it in a category.
 
i am not sure what you mean,okrad; autism [classic] isnt a mental illness so for aspergers to have become associated with it didnt make it a mental illness,there are quite a few things in the DSM/ICD that arent mental illnesses,personality disorders for example are not considered mental illnesses and are considered to be a set pattern of thinking,
because all of these conditions are identified by behaviors they are diagnosed by shrinks and grouped under those manuals.

i thought your TBI affected your functioning and added to your autism issues?
if i have understood that right,it would mean you were functioning differently when younger so its the younger years/developmental history that matter to a diagnosis,it sounds like your TBI triggered autistic burnout.

people with aspergers can be significantly affected in functioning but they are technically classed as high functioning because they are-intellectually;that is where the functioning label comes from and confuses many a autist,low functioning implies an autist with some level of intellectual disability,this affects their presentation of autism and may come with language and speech impairment,significant basic personal care needs,the need for 24 hr care,severe challenging behavior,severe social and interaction issues,the need for adaptions and devices, etc,high functioning comes with normal or above intellectual functioning which means they will function better in a mainstream society and their autism wont be very visible,but their actual physical functioning may be terrible, this is what they dont tell you in autism documentaries when they go on about LFA/HFA.
i have lived with quite a few aspies who needed 24 hr support,two of them needed 2-1 support!

Yes, I was bad off at 14. But the TBI must have triggered the burnout. That is very perceptive.

I am confused as to what happened to me at 14. Maybe it was a mini burnout already? I headbanged and stuff when little but at 14 was totally disabled. If THAT is autism, that heck yes , it was disabling. It wiped out my entire memory and life and functioning all at once.

Maybe it was a virus or bacteria that attacked my brain that already had some traces of autism.

It is all confusing to me.
 
'The drug that my Asperger’s son loved turned his life upside down
Now, he is on no medication at all and is depressed at the chaos he wreaked while on the treatment'

Elisa Segrave
The drug that my Asperger’s son loved turned his life upside down

To me, this 32-year-old man's behaviour sounds like autism, not Asperger Syndrome. Isn't Asperger Syndrome supposed to be the high-functioning version of autism? I wonder how many people who are Aspergers are prevented from declaring any difficulties/deficits because they risk being stigmatised as being 'mentally disabled' and unable to live unassisted like this man?

This is not a quest to distance Asperger’s from other forms of autism; rather it is a matter of having an accurate understanding of the abilities and needs of Aspergers. In my view, the ‘Asperger’ label needs to be reserved for those with no impairments other than in social-political skills so that Aspergers can get the help they need without being excluded from certain lines of work or suddenly marginalised in the office because they are perceived as 'having a disability'.

ASD, including Asperger's, is a condition, not an illness, in the same way that blindness, Down's syndrome, deafness, pregnancy, the menopause etc. are conditions, not illnesses.
By this reasoning, isn't neurotypicality also a condition?
 
A few of us have posted many times how we believe how the DSM-IV transitioned AS into ASD with the DSM-V was heavily influenced through the development of the Affordable Care Act. A political and fiscal decision- not a medical decision.

Where politicians and insurers set out to blur neurodiversity to the point where it is more difficult to seek both help and/or government entitlements to primarily reduce costs.

Now that the ACA appears to be on the verge of being repealed in whole or in part, I can't help but wonder if there will eventually be yet another revision of what presently constitutes ASD. Of course if this happens, the question becomes whether this process will get even worse, or better. I can't say I'm optimistic about this myself.
Are you saying they have made the 'symptoms' more severe (e.g., so that less people qualify for them? i.e., Aspergers don't stand a change of getting help but autistic people do? Below I have set out possible reasons for the change in the DSM (collapsing Asperger Syndrome into autism in 2013).

Possible clinical reasons for subsuming AS into autism

1. The belief that ‘quantitative’ diagnosis is more accurate than ‘qualitative’?

Trying to capture different levels (quantities) of severity of the condition, at the expense of capturing different qualities, is disingenuous. The reason is that experts and clinicians, no less than lay people, diagnose mental conditions using labels, stereotypes and images in their minds rather than theories and lists of necessary-and-sufficient conditions (‘quantitative factors’). Perhaps the DSM wants to move towards biological evidence for psychopathologies and autism conforms to this ‘medicalising’ model to a greater extent than does Asperger Syndrome?

2. To ensure that Asperger individuals obtain support?
Asperger Syndrome may have been collapsed into the diagnostic category ‘autism’ to provide support for Asperger individuals who otherwise would not have the same support as a classic autistic but still need it. But then this raises the question of why AS wasn’t simply left in the DSM as it was before: ‘Asperger disorder’.

Just as society was starting to understand that ‘being on the autistic spectrum’ is not necessarily correlated with ‘low IQ’, we are back to associating Asperger’s with autism and pervasive learning difficulties. Removing Asperger’s from the DSM has arguably set us back decades in terms of autism accuracy – especially when ever more accounts are coming out, giving us an increasingly accurate, nuanced understanding of all the manifestations of Aspergers. Could there be political, rather than clinical, processes at work in the changes to the DSM-5 regarding ASD?

Possible political reasons for subsuming AS into autism

1. To drum up custom? (Were too few being diagnosed?)
The cynic might wonder whether DSM clinicians ‘converted’ the less-severe ‘Asperger disorder’ label into the ‘more severe’ autism because Asperger Syndrome was not severe enough for their clinical attention. Seeing Asperger’s becoming ‘de-pathologised’, they may have sought to expand their client base by calling everyone with social eccentricities ‘disordered’ (autistic). Unless the condition is medicalised (that is, appears in the DSM of mental disorders), psychiatrists in the US cannot charge fees . Thus, medicalising Asperger’s by calling it autism may have a financial incentive in that it could ensure ongoing work and professional advancement for psychiatrists. Again, this raises the question of why it couldn’t just remain medicalised as ‘Asperger disorder’ in the DSM.

2. To save money? (Were too many being diagnosed?)
A contrary possible political motivation for excising Asperger Syndrome from the DSM is to save money. Those with an average or high IQ cannot be diagnosed as autistic; they are therefore not eligible for support as an adult, such as financial subsidisation to pay for a community college course. Due to limited resources, only severe cases can obtain support, and organisations prefer to focus on individuals who have the most difficulty in dealing with life. Equating ASD with ‘low IQ’ could be a convenient way out of paying for those who are Asperger’s.

It is possible that ‘too many’ people were being diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome, particularly in the mid to late 2000s. By making the only available label ‘autism’, many may think twice about getting a diagnosis because of the social stigma it entails, which may exclude them from certain kinds of work. Since fewer people will now get an autism diagnosis, resources will be conserved.

3. To simplify things administratively?
The change in the DSM may also have been implemented to bypass the complexity of spectrum conditions. That is, to pander to society’s appetite for unequivocal, unnuanced, black-and-white messages that can compete against the cacophony of media culture. Thus, it is simpler to educate ‘the masses’ about ‘autism’ than about all the nuances in the characteristics comprising Asperger Syndrome. The label ‘autism’ is an easy catch-all phrase sanctioning medical solutions for ‘problem people’.

A more accurate stance would be to hold two contradictory ideas in mind at once: (1) that Aspergers can be ignorant about basic matters yet brilliant at complex tasks for which the majority lacks skills; (2) that Aspergers are not disabled yet they may be more suited to part-time work than full-time work. On the other hand, Aspergers may have no trouble with full-time work if they are self-employed. It is the social exposure and politics that makes full-time employment outside of the home taxing for Aspergers. Hopefully high-achieving Aspergers can help to change the stereotype of associating ‘autistic spectrum’ with ‘low IQ’ so that those who are marginalised in society are not automatically assumed to be intellectually deficient, and are not deemed unworthy of support simply because they have average-to-high IQs.
 
You or they can call it anything you want,but it still doesn't change the deficits that come with it.No two humans are ever carbon copies of each other as can be witnessed in identical twins. Keep in mind that autism and Asperger's is all just in theory and remember how flawed psychology is to begin with.
Nuf said ?
 
You or they can call it anything you want,but it still doesn't change the deficits that come with it.No two humans are ever carbon copies of each other as can be witnessed in identical twins. Keep in mind that autism and Asperger's is all just in theory and remember how flawed psychology is to begin with.
Nuf said ?
The fact is society needs words and labels to arrive at shared meanings between individuals so as to have any sort of society, so words and labels matter hugely. They define groups for one thing. Words are social constructions but these come with value judgements and connotations. How does "call it anything you want" help with the allocation of scare resources and virtually bottomless human need? I do think we have to roll up our sleeves and grapple with the debates - both biological-medical and social-political.
 
The fact is society needs words and labels to arrive at shared meanings between individuals so as to have any sort of society, so words and labels matter hugely. They define groups for one thing. Words are social constructions but these come with value judgements and connotations. How does "call it anything you want" help with the allocation of scare resources and virtually bottomless human need? I do think we have to roll up our sleeves and grapple with the debates - both biological-medical and social-political.
Ok,so label everything just to keep the playing field level...Just exactly how much more confusion do you feel is necessary to garner more services for the cause?
 

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