are we no different?

[Voltaic]

I was making a post about questions, and judging others based on how offended they get from some types of questions. i was thinking as i wrote about how i also get offended, and the toughts spiralled down until i thought to make a post about it.

rightfuly so, or not, we critisize NTs a lot. i fall towords the same practice, to a point where i have to keep my ‘us versus them’ mentality in check.

something that i have learned throught my life on the internet is that no side is strictly right in thier actions. it seems that no matter the stance you take on a certain senario, there are always faults. the ones that i see right now in myself is that i am critiszing people for things that i do as well.

yes, i get offended by certain questions, things that are asked in good intention, but fall pray to my mood or perception of intent. i have noticed this hypocrasy before, and i try to fix myself towords what i expect of other people, but it doesnt stop my mouth rambling about problems that i am a part of.

(my mocha taste like coffe crisp)

i dont know enough to say anything certain about other people. this comunity is diverse in thought, but we sometimes forum a hivemind. do you think this hivemind that developes is hypocritical in the autistic comunity? as per nature, it is often a ‘us versus them’ mentality, which at the far end of the spectrum can be exteremly toxic, but apealing to the mind.

we can feel so right in our actions as a group, we fail to see what is trully happening. anyone can develope is blind line of reasoning in group mentalities, foccusing on the oponets of the group, instead of ourselfs.

yes, we are different. but really...
are we any different?

 

[Gracey]

Nice question

My own tuppence worth is that we perhaps move along parallel to others who also move along parallel to a different group of others, who move along parallel to yet another group of ‘others’

Who is correct?

Each different group have their own idiosyncrasies, values, beliefs, perception.

So which one is correct?
The group that I belong to? Or a different group?

Until I know for sure which group is perfect, I try not to judge.

?

 

[Bella Pines]

Couldn't agree more, I've been keeping my "us vs them" mentality in check by seeing it as "different colours of us".

Really, everything is just belief and perception. There are many posts here asking "why can't they accept me", when the poster clearly can't accept them.

Hypocrisy is easy to fall into and I find that I hate traits in people that I see in myself. So no, we aren't that different and I agree that no one has a divine right to judge.

 

[Iamnotarabot]

Thats funny because , even if i am not 100% sure about it yet, since I learned about ASD and that i consider i might be on the spectrum, I also think i am not exaclty in the same group as others NT ^^'

But yes I dont think this is a good mentality to seperate ourselves from the rest, since we could be very usefull for society overall.

But about Hypocrisy, i dont know, you mean exaclty, you mean, the fact that we want to be accepted while we are not willing to make any effort on our side?

I think this is a common problem with any minority nowadays, i mean,each minority has some people shouting that society is not progressive enought and doesnt want to include them ( so they say) while they doesnt accept the others point of view.

So we need a common effort ofc.

I hope i didnt miss the spot of your question xD

 

[AO1501]

That there is an 'us' and a 'them' is inevitable because there is a very significant difference between the two groups. While it is certainly true that there is far more to being human that we share than there is that divides us, the fact that our differences stem from brain wiring, and the brain is the root of how we perceive the world around us, makes the difference rather profound.

That in itself is not an issue though. Seeing differently, reacting differently, perceiving differently we are quite capable of integrating into a world with our NT brothers and sisters, and many of us clearly do just that.

The 'us and them' mentality doesn't, as far as I can see, come from us believing we are superior, it comes from our NT brothers and sisters treating us differently, because by and large they do. Not intentionally perhaps, but they don't see us as like them when they see us at all.

Even the way they describe us is in the negative, we obsess (we are highly focused), we don't pay attention (have auditory sensitivities), we are unsociable (we get on with the job and don't waste our employer's money on pointless chit-chat), we are clumsy (have poor executive function), we have childish tantrums or anger problems (meltdowns), we are moody and unpredictable (we have stress issues), we are unemotional (we think logically and are typically blunt), we have food fads or are fussy eaters (certain textures are unpleasant), 'you never fetch a brew for us' (if I did, I'd trip and drop everything and embarrass myself).... I could go on, and on about the misjudgments.

And our differences are deficits, failings. It's about what is wrong with us, not about what is right. Weaknesses, not strengths. It wears a bit thin after a while.

In the workplace, aspies frequently get told they 'don't play well in teams' and get passed over for promotion because they are not 'team players'. Many are unemployed or underemployed because they don't perform well at interviews constructed by NTs to fit their selection of presumed-NT candidates.

NT attitudes to us are typified by a comment a friend of mine made when finally accepting that indeed, I am on the autism spectrum. This guy has known me for over 30 years, and he said: does knowing you are on the spectrum make any difference to my regard for you? No, not a bit. Eh?! Why would it unless you think I am less than I was because of the diagnosis.
And when I first told him, his reaction was that 'it is not unusual for people having a tough time personally, to belittle themselves'. Admitting to being autistic is belittling myself?!

And let's not forget that not only do NT 'professionals' routinely subject autistic patients to incredibly damaging 'therapies' to try and change us into normal people, but that before then they would lock us up in institutions to hide us away.

I bet most people on the spectrum have experienced many forms of belittling and negativity at the hands of NTs, so it isn't a surprise that we see 'us and them' in rather stark terms.

But, you say, they don't do this intentionally. It is ignorance. Of course that's the same thing white people said about blacks. Buying and selling them is only because that's all they are worth, they're not really like us, they are less. So ignorance isn't much of a defence is it?

However, our differences are invisible to them and they have no way really to grasp what they are, and for that reason, even though I am furious at the way some of us are treated, I refuse to engage in a war of words against them because that won't help anyone. I do believe in educating as many NTs as I can reach in what being on the spectrum means, how it affects us, and what it gives us that can benefit them as a whole. One.At.A.Time.

It is slow going!

 

[55853]

That there is an 'us' and a 'them' is inevitable because there is a very significant difference between the two groups

"Significant difference" is a statistical term, yet what stats test have been run and what factors were they based on? I'd be very interested in reading the methods, but I can't find anything - do you still have the reference?

Even the way they describe us is in the negative, we obsess (we are highly focused), we don't pay attention (have auditory sensitivities), we are unsociable (we get on with the job and don't waste our employer's money on pointless chit-chat), we are clumsy (have poor executive function), we have childish tantrums or anger problems (meltdowns), we are moody and unpredictable (we have stress issues), we are unemotional (we think logically and are typically blunt), we have food fads or are fussy eaters (certain textures are unpleasant), 'you never fetch a brew for us' (if I did, I'd trip and drop everything and embarrass myself).... I could go on, and on about the misjudgments.

Please speak for yourself. The autism spectrum is highly heterogeneous [1], so you can't make sweeping statements like those without excluding a large amount of people.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

The 'us and them' mentality doesn't, as far as I can see, come from us believing we are superior, it comes from our NT brothers and sisters treating us differently, because by and large they do

It is the way social society is constructed I think and we, as well as anyone else more overtly less able, also suffers.

Many are unemployed or underemployed because they don't perform well at interviews constructed by NTs to fit their selection of presumed-NT candidates

The whole world is daft. We were told at school, if we were interviewed :
There would be 3 people.
One would be nasty.
One would ask most of the questions.
Ome wpuld pretend to be asleep.

So I was gobsmacked at my first imterview to see that actually happen.
How ridiculous!
Ive also read repprts that pepple,who select candidates do it from their own biases and are actually hopeless at it.

But, you say, they don't do this intentionally. It is ignorance. Of course that's the same thing white people said about blacks. Buying and selling them is only because that's all they are worth, they're not really like us, they are less

3/5

 

[WereBear]

If your society is based on "fitting in" then we never will.

 

[Progster]

rightfuly so, or not, we critisize NTs a lot. i fall towords the same practice, to a point where i have to keep my ‘us versus them’ mentality in check.

Perhaps writing just 'people' rather than 'neurotypicals' os a good way fo keeping an 'us versus them' mentality in check. on the other hand, the two groups are different in many ways, and if we want to distiguish one group from another, we need a way of doing so.

something that i have learned throught my life on the internet is that no side is strictly right in thier actions. it seems that no matter the stance you take on a certain senario, there are always faults. the ones that i see right now in myself is that i am critiszing people for things that i do as well.

Everyone is a hypocrite at some point in their lives. What is more important is with what intent - sometimes people can change their viewpoint and end up doing and saying the opposite, or one can agree with a principal in theory, but when it comes to putting it in practice, it is hard and we don't say or do that which we claimed to do. This is different to being a hypocrite because one conveniently forgot having said something for manipulative reasons, or when one won't admit to one's contradiction.

i dont know enough to say anything certain about other people. this comunity is diverse in thought, but we sometimes forum a hivemind. do you think this hivemind that developes is hypocritical in the autistic comunity? as per nature, it is often a ‘us versus them’ mentality, which at the far end of the spectrum can be exteremly toxic, but apealing to the mind.

I've noticed the 'hivemind' too. I think that what is shows is that we belong to the same species. Neurotypicals may be different to us in many ways, just as lions are different to tigers, but we are all cats, and all have some common 'catlike' behaviours.

 

[55853]

I've noticed the 'hivemind' too. I think that what is shows is that we belong to the same species.

The "hivemind" reminds me of something I am familiar with - spatial autocorrelation [1][2] (maybe don't click that second link if stats disturbs you). Things nearby having similarity. Maybe you could apply it to people on forums being similar. There's likely to be a more appropriate term for the clustering that's inherent to communities (of people), but unfortunately I have next to no knowledge about the social sciences.

Anyway, I think that dependence needs to be taken into account. There's clustering, people are more similar, and the reduced heterogeneity appears as a "hivemind". And it's circular - people more similar are attracted to a place they feel they belong, people less similar feel isolated and are driven away. At least that's my perspective, as someone who probably doesn't understand social dynamics.

I'm sorry I'm only familiar with this from a statistical point of view, I know stats is unpopular. But in some form, I think most people have noticed this. I guess it's the reason many of you are using terms like "NT" - you've felt different and isolated. Just don't forget the same thing is happening here - this forum's "hivemind" is isolating some of us.

 

[Chance]

Maybe I don't get the "us versus them" as well as others because I try to look at individuals characters, the ways they treat others, their general mood, their loyalty, etc.

Us versus them is to me more of a herd mentality thing and we are all maybe affected by the same thing BUT it affects each one of us in a differing way so I don't see the "herd" thing that well either... yet it is there at some level at times...

More over the US vs THEM... I try and look at me first... Did I do something stupid to trigger the reaction that person gave me? If so I deserve the reaction I got.

Even deeper did I do something I didn't notice I was doing that got that reaction from that person? This gets a little tricky because some stuff I simply can't identify UNTIL another person points it out to me.

I personally don't even want an US vs THEM THING because then it's like racism, or segregation, or some crazy thing that always gets turned upside down and into a nasty mess.

IF (huge if) they could only see that in most cases of (HFA) which includes most people in this forum...
All that is needed is a lot of understanding and a lot of REVERSE STEREOTYPING.... So many people have this really wrong image of ASD and its because of a lot of wrong projection really early on...

I sit around thinking lots of time on how to do this... Its not hard at all, but finding the right people with the write mindset is all it takes...

For instance today (many professionals say) that Albert Einstein, Nikola Tesla, Amadeus Mozart, Michelangelo, Thomas Jefferson, and more would be on the "Spectrum"...

We WOULD NOT have the technology we have today without these wonderful minds... They are still unraveling the mysteries of Tesla to this date who was so far ahead of his time it was unimaginable...

Even today there is Temple Grandin, Daryl Hanna, Dan Aykroyd, Susan Boyle, it is rumored Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, also could be listed as being on the "Spectrum." This basically covers EVERY SOCIAL situation there is and their are lots more people that could be listed... and then some more after that...

So It's not a far leap to say MANY people on the Spectrum are very intelligent given the room to let their minds run free.

So now I could say "we are smarter", but that also would not be a solid truth because of the vast nature of the Spectrum itself. However, NO ONE seems to want to get past the stigma of maybe a mass of lower functioning people... which is not fair, or cool, when it is ASD type people who gave the world the advancements it is enjoying RIGHT NOW...

Its apples and oranges more than us vs them... to me anyway... : )

 

[Thinx]

I think the point Voltaic is making is very important and valid, but that it is also impacted by power differences. Disempowered individuals form groups together and become more empowered, but this may mean they want to be recognised as equal though different, this is true of racial/ethnic groups, gender groups, sexualities, all kinds of groups who want fair recognition and rights in the societies they belong to. We are gaining understanding of ourselves as neurodiverse and we are helping the world see us and understand us, but change takes time.

Change often seems to happen through a mix of reasoned discussion and impassioned protest, and through establishing supportive groups that help bring change about, by raising awareness in each other and the wider world. I think our discussions here are contributing to change, and unity (togetherness, not uniformity ) is strength. I'm not seeing a 'hive mind ' in this thread, for example, but we are all here, discussing and growing.

 

[AO1501]

"Significant difference" is a statistical term....

It is also a phrase in the English language.

 

[AO1501]

The whole world is daft. We were told at school, if we were interviewed :
There would be 3 people.
One would be nasty.
One would ask most of the questions.
Ome wpuld pretend to be asleep.

So I was gobsmacked at my first imterview to see that actually happen.
How ridiculous!
Ive also read repprts that pepple,who select candidates do it from their own biases and are actually hopeless at it.

I find it interesting that school gave any guidance on being interviewed - mine didn't, but it was a long time ago! I also have not been interviewed very often, but I was for the civil service many, many years ago and the panel was exactly as you describe!

However, as one of the interviewers at my place of work, I know that at least these days we don't make hiring decisions on our biases - it's one reason we use a panel of people to shortlist and interview so that the biases of each are counteracted by others. But even though there's always an Aspie on the interview panel (me), the others always end up asking open questions that Aspies would find hard to answer, and talk about 'teamwork' and being part of 'the team'. But at least I am there to catch this and deflect it. We are an Aspie-friendly place, but it is only because I am there and they know I'm on the spectrum, so are sensitive to it.

 

[AO1501]

3/5

Yes, exactly!

 

[tducey]

There are some differences but to me there are also similarities between myself and others without Autism. That may be due to my diagnosis being Asperger's.

 

[onlything]

Being a hypocrite seems to come in a packet with being a human, eh?
Well, I think that as long as we're trying not to judge without basis and not to succumb to our ignorance, we're just fine. Perfection doesn't exist but improvement does.

 

[Arkanu of Galatiel]

Depends on how you're looking at it. We are different in that no two people share the same thought patterns, but we both have interests, hobbies, dreams and desires. While these are variable depending on the person, the concepts seem to be universal. As for communication, it's making me think of, say, an englishman traveling through rural areas in China. They probably don't speak english, and the englishman probably doesn't speak chinese, but there are people who understand both sides, i.e Chinese culture and traditions compared to english traditions and culture.

All things considered, that's a complex question with complex answers, but I hope my answer works for you.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

They probably don't speak english, and the englishman probably doesn't speak chinese, but there are people who understand both sides, i.e Chinese culture and traditions compared to english traditions and culture.

What I always found interesting about China :

It was United by a written language but not a spoken language.
Ie the pictograms were the same but the people who used them spoke different languages.

 

[WereBear]

For instance today (many professionals say) that Albert Einstein, Nikola Tesla, Amadeus Mozart, Michelangelo, Thomas Jefferson, and more would be on the "Spectrum"...

...So It's not a far leap to say MANY people on the Spectrum are very intelligent given the room to let their minds run free.

Change often seems to happen through a mix of reasoned discussion and impassioned protest, and through establishing supportive groups that help bring change about, by raising awareness in each other and the wider world. I think our discussions here are contributing to change, and unity (togetherness, not uniformity ) is strength. I'm not seeing a 'hive mind ' in this thread, for example, but we are all here, discussing and growing.

I have come to see us all as autistic; with varying levels of intelligence and challenges, just like "everyone else."

For so long autism has been seen as a disorder, a handicap, as brain "damage." While now, after spending a lot of time in research, I think of it as an alternate brain pattern. Neurotypicals can suffer problems with development or injury... and so can we.

It explains the mindset out there in most of the western world of medicine: you are either very challenged and inexplicable... or you don't have autism!