Any Agnostics here..?

[LadyS]

Apologies in advance if it's already been posted. Wanted to see if there are anyone here who take an agnostic approach to life?

I was raised Hindu, in a predominantly conservative Christian area. However, contrary to popular belief, Hinduism isn't so much a religion as it is a culture. There aren't a specific set of rules that governs people's belief systems and God(s). In my case, my mom is super religious and my dad is more agnostic like me, although we all still practice, me less so. However, my parents were very open to discuss other religions and encouraged me to find out answers for myself and not take their word for it, largely due to the less restrictive nature of the belief system.

I, like many people, use a mix of my own experiences, observations, and logic to decipher life. I'll never be able to say anything definitively about God, the origin of life, the purpose of life because as a lone human being in this VAST universe with so many predetermined aspects of life (family, birthplace, gender, race, etc), and my short finite time on earth in an infinite time frame, limited physicalities, how can I know anything for sure?

In my own personal experiences and observations I continuously see that there is possibly some sort of conscience driving force in life. Whether it's a guy in a white flowing robe or Mother Nature, I'll never know for sure. As a scientist myself, it must be said that scientists can be biased in their research (and very dismissive when it comes to anything paranormal even though they should be seeking out all possibilities) and faith is of course faith. Anything goes.

Anyone else likeminded?

(Also would kindly ask to refrain from the urge of spreading gospel or trying to convince me to come to your side. I've heard it all before. Thanks!)

 

[Bort]

I don't know what I'd consider my views. Maybe more atheistic? I don't believe in a higher power. I think that a lot of people use religion to find a way to make sense of life (and death). I don't have too much of a desire to make sense of things, I just want to enjoy my time being alive.

 

[Major Tom]

That is pretty much the exact way I feel about life too. I was raised in a Irish Catholic family who all were very strongly religious. They tried to push it on me, but it didn't take.

Then again I've had experiences that simply cannot be explained and it seems as though I have some sort of guardian angel or something protecting me at times. I literally should not be alive right now. It could be purely coincidence too. I have no idea.

I'm more of a believer in science and evolution, but I do not deny that there are things in life that science cannot explain. All in all, I think we still know very little of life, it's origins, and there's flaws in every kind of belief system out there. I think it's better to keep that in mind and to approach everything openly.

 

[LadyS]

That is pretty much the exact way I feel about life too. I was raised in a Irish Catholic family who all were very strongly religious. They tried to push it on me, but it didn't take.

Then again I've had experiences that simply cannot be explained and it seems as though I have some sort of guardian angel or something protecting me at times. I literally should not be alive right now. It could be purely coincidence too. I have no idea.

I'm more of a believer in science and evolution, but I do not deny that there are things in life that science cannot explain. All in all, I think we still know very little of life, it's origins, and there's flaws in every kind of belief system out there. I think it's better to keep that in mind and to approach everything openly.

Yes! I've had similar experiences of a "guardian angel" or to that effect. There have been far too many coincidences in my life plus countless signs and close calls. I keep thinking someone or something is trying guide me to where I need to go. And agree to keeping an open mind on everything.

 

[Varzar]

I think if I had to describe my religious views at this point, I'd have to use the term apathetic.

I don't particularly think there's evidence to support a god or gods. Even if there was a god/gods, I can't imagine why they would care about me as an individual any more than I concern myself about an individual ant crawling around near my carport. So, why should I care about a god/gods?

Hence, apathy.
Seems to fit better than agnostic or atheist.

 

[Barymore]

Not on the fence at all: atheist.
The universe is miraculous and likely ultimately ineffable but this to me is no argument for the existence of a deity.

All the evidence I have read (talking anthropology, primatology, psychology, sociology, neurobiology etc) suggests Humans tend towards storytelling, and the imputation of agency to inanimate objects and processes. Deities are an 'invention' like the notion of money and religion a meta system for organizing and regulating societies.
Societies need some kind of collective system and many / most have gone with a cognizant higher power.
I have had times when I wish I could just believe....I have had two transcendent experiences in my life. But there are no gods in my world view. Life is beautifully intricate enough.
Also: science is a tool, its not something you believe in or not - like you do or dont believe in a screwdriver or a hammer. Sometimes a screwdriver is not the right tool, doesnt mean you dont believe in the principles required to build a house.

 

[LadyS]

See this is interesting, especially with regards to the other thread on blocking religious posts from feeds...esp since I specifically asked for fellow Agnostics. But I don't mind hearing other points of view.

Not on the fence at all: atheist.
The universe is miraculous and likely ultimately ineffable but this to me is no argument for the existence of a deity.

All the evidence I have read (talking anthropology, primatology, psychology, sociology, neurobiology etc) suggests Humans tend towards storytelling, and the imputation of agency to inanimate objects and processes. Deities are an 'invention' like the notion of money and religion a meta system for organizing and regulating societies.
Societies need some kind of collective system and many / most have gone with a cognizant higher power.
I have had times when I wish I could just believe....I have had two transcendent experiences in my life. But there are no gods in my world view. Life is beautifully intricate enough.
Also: science is a tool, its not something you believe in or not - like you do or dont believe in a screwdriver or a hammer. Sometimes a screwdriver is not the right tool, doesnt mean you dont believe in the principles required to build a house.

Agree science is a tool, but people often forget that humans are the ones that are using it and humans as we all know are not perfect, and have an ego which sometimes get in the way in the pursuit if knowledge. For instance, why is the paranormal such as ghosts so often dismissed by mainstream science? Just because we haven't invented or discovered tools that can accurately detect those things does not negate their possible existence. That is the pursuit of science after all. This is why I can never choose a side and stick with it. I can read all the books and talk with all the people to no end but in the end, we still have a long way to go in discovering more. I don't think we are at the apex yet, as it seems people throughout history often think they know all that there is to know (only to be proven wrong decades later).

I work in the field of science, and have had the opportunity to do some cutting edge research and even co-authored a few scientific papers and I can tell you it truly is a biased, ego and often incentive ($$$) driven pursuit. And sometimes I feel that it can deter from actual pure knowledge-driven research. Not always, but sometimes.

With that said, I also tend to lean towards there not being actual Gods, but whatever it is that I believe in, we simply don't have the language or capacity to understand or embrace it yet. Humans are limited after all.

 

[Streetwise]

Apologies in advance if it's already been posted. Wanted to see if there are anyone here who take an agnostic approach to life?

I was raised Hindu, in a predominantly conservative Christian area. However, contrary to popular belief, Hinduism isn't so much a religion as it is a culture. There aren't a specific set of rules that governs people's belief systems and God(s). In my case, my mom is super religious and my dad is more agnostic like me, although we all still practice, me less so. However, my parents were very open to discuss other religions and encouraged me to find out answers for myself and not take their word for it, largely due to the less restrictive nature of the belief system.

I, like many people, use a mix of my own experiences, observations, and logic to decipher life. I'll never be able to say anything definitively about God, the origin of life, the purpose of life because as a lone human being in this VAST universe with so many predetermined aspects of life (family, birthplace, gender, race, etc), and my short finite time on earth in an infinite time frame, limited physicalities, how can I know anything for sure?

In my own personal experiences and observations I continuously see that there is possibly some sort of conscience driving force in life. Whether it's a guy in a white flowing robe or Mother Nature, I'll never know for sure. As a scientist myself, it must be said that scientists can be biased in their research (and very dismissive when it comes to anything paranormal even though they should be seeking out all possibilities) and faith is of course faith. Anything goes.

Anyone else likeminded?

(Also would kindly ask to refrain from the urge of spreading gospel or trying to convince me to come to your side. I've heard it all before. Thanks!)

Nope I'm a Christian Zionist solidly on the God is jhvh ,then abba+Ben David and the ruach ha kodesh! and I think atheists rely on thinking there is no God because they are frightened by something they can't explain

 

[Varzar]

Nope I'm a Christian Zionist solidly on the God is jhvh ,then abba+Ben David and the ruach ha kodesh! and I think atheists rely on thinking there is no God because they are frightened by something they can't explain

That's an interesting perspective. I think religious people rely on thinking there is a god cause they are frightened about what happens after we die.

So we both think the other believes what we do out of fear. Go figure.

What is the "unexplained" thing you feel atheists are fearful of?

 

[Misery]

See this is interesting, especially with regards to the other thread on blocking religious posts from feeds...esp since I specifically asked for fellow Agnostics. But I don't mind hearing other points of view.



Agree science is a tool, but people often forget that humans are the ones that are using it and humans as we all know are not perfect, and have an ego which sometimes get in the way in the pursuit if knowledge. For instance, why is the paranormal such as ghosts so often dismissed by mainstream science? Just because we haven't invented or discovered tools that can accurately detect those things does not negate their possible existence. That is the pursuit of science after all. This is why I can never choose a side and stick with it. I can read all the books and talk with all the people to no end but in the end, we still have a long way to go in discovering more. I don't think we are at the apex yet, as it seems people throughout history often think they know all that there is to know (only to be proven wrong decades later).

I work in the field of science, and have had the opportunity to do some cutting edge research and even co-authored a few scientific papers and I can tell you it truly is a biased, ego and often incentive ($$$) driven pursuit. And sometimes I feel that it can deter from actual pure knowledge-driven research. Not always, but sometimes.

With that said, I also tend to lean towards there not being actual Gods, but whatever it is that I believe in, we simply don't have the language or capacity to understand or embrace it yet. Humans are limited after all.

Aye, this is sort of what I tend to think as well, and also where I usually conflict with the typical "atheist" or strictly religious person, as I usually see their views as but one simple thing: assumptions.

Our level of scientific understanding isnt even enough to allow us to travel to the bloated space rock that is our freaking next door neighbor (Mars), nor can we even fully understand our own bodies. And people have the gall to assume they have 100% absolute knowledge of the bloody workings of life, death, and the deepest core of reality?

Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous.

Note though that I wont speak in such a way outside of topics that are specifically like this one. Nothing irks me more than watching someone else barge in where they arent wanted just to tell others that their belief is incorrect, or to say something like "LOL X DOESNT EXIST". So most of the time... I keep all of this to myself, since even if my belief is that I have no bloody idea, I aint gonna shove that in anyone's face. Everyone believes what they do for their own reasons. And that's how it should be.

And as for this bit:

For instance, why is the paranormal such as ghosts so often dismissed by mainstream science? Just because we haven't invented or discovered tools that can accurately detect those things does not negate their possible existence. That is the pursuit of science after all.

There's a line I heard recently, that I really like: "most people dont believe in the paranormal until it suddenly happens to them".

I definitely put stock in that phrase, oh yes.

Also for what it's worth, I tend to find a lot of scientists in general to be... very egotistical. I do think that's a huuuuuuuge part of the issue. Not just in terms of dealing with the paranormal, but also in terms of, you know, just getting things DONE. But then, based on what you said... you are already well aware of that.


Now as for my own beliefs/stance... as far as I'm concerned, the ACTUAL truth is: "I dont have a bloody clue". How the heck am I supposed to know the answer to the big questions? Could there be a God? Sure. Could there be MANY gods? Sure. ARE there? Heck if I freaking know. Could there perhaps instead be a whole other concept that nobody has even remotely grasped at? ...Maybe? I dunno!

Frankly... I tend to think the real answer is more like "we *cant* understand the truth". Life, death, the concept of "deities", and so on... people like to think of those things in ways they can "understand", when it may not be POSSIBLE for our frankly weak minds to grasp these yet. Like trying to visualize a 4-dimensional object: You *cant*. It's not that the concept of 4 dimensions doesnt work... mathematically, it absolutely does. But you can strain that brain of yours all day, all week, all year, and you will NEVER actually get a mental image of a 4-dimensional object. You... cant. It is BARELY on the boundary of something that can be understood, and only because throwing lots of numbers at it reveals that it is there, and reveals some of the functionality behind it. Even so... the mind cant handle it and isnt formatted to deal with it, so visualization is not possible.

Does that make any sense? I'm not sure, I just ramble and hope something coherent comes out.

Of course, that line of thinking can go to some dark places... I wont go there. With so much free time, I will naturally try to theorize about this stuff sometimes, and every now and then... well, yeah, it gets more than a little distressing. An effect of the type of things I constantly read, no doubt, my mind will always take a sharp turn towards the dark and freaky when given the chance. Even with things that SHOULD seem purely good. Like this:

Yes! I've had similar experiences of a "guardian angel" or to that effect. There have been far too many coincidences in my life plus countless signs and close calls. I keep thinking someone or something is trying guide me to where I need to go.

Boy has THIS concept been bothering me lately. I've already discussed this and things related to the concept with a couple of others on this forum... if either of you are reading this by chance, you know who you are.

The idea that *something* has focused on me has certainly occurred to me, I'll put it that way. Guardian angel or quantum weirdness, I cant be sure. But, dark-minded as I am, I find this concept very... disconcerting. I'm told it's surely a positive, but... that potential for "bad" in it wont stop nagging at me.

That's a whole other funky topic though that I wont go into here.


Bah, I'm rambling aimlessly again. It's close to bedtime and I didnt sleep all that well last night, so I do apologize for that. I get less coherent when that happens.

But anyway, that's just my general thoughts on all that stuff. Not all that much else for me to say, really. I'm mostly just posting about it at all because it was randomly on my mind and I happened to see this topic while just clicking around the forum.

 

[Aspychata]

Is it a coincidence or is predestined or what? Something that happened to me in one place of my life, made me reach out to change my path, so l did something l had never done before. So l sit here now and scratch my head. And that is some of the reason l am here also.

Was it a guiding hand, or did l just fall into this?

I really don't know, but then maybe l don't need to know anymore.

 

[LadyS]

Aye, this is sort of what I tend to think as well, and also where I usually conflict with the typical "atheist" or strictly religious person, as I usually see their views as but one simple thing: assumptions.

Our level of scientific understanding isnt even enough to allow us to travel to the bloated space rock that is our freaking next door neighbor (Mars), nor can we even fully understand our own bodies. And people have the gall to assume they have 100% absolute knowledge of the bloody workings of life, death, and the deepest core of reality?

Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous.

Note though that I wont speak in such a way outside of topics that are specifically like this one. Nothing irks me more than watching someone else barge in where they arent wanted just to tell others that their belief is incorrect, or to say something like "LOL X DOESNT EXIST". So most of the time... I keep all of this to myself, since even if my belief is that I have no bloody idea, I aint gonna shove that in anyone's face. Everyone believes what they do for their own reasons. And that's how it should be.

And as for this bit:



There's a line I heard recently, that I really like: "most people dont believe in the paranormal until it suddenly happens to them".

I definitely put stock in that phrase, oh yes.

Also for what it's worth, I tend to find a lot of scientists in general to be... very egotistical. I do think that's a huuuuuuuge part of the issue. Not just in terms of dealing with the paranormal, but also in terms of, you know, just getting things DONE. But then, based on what you said... you are already well aware of that.


Now as for my own beliefs/stance... as far as I'm concerned, the ACTUAL truth is: "I dont have a bloody clue". How the heck am I supposed to know the answer to the big questions? Could there be a God? Sure. Could there be MANY gods? Sure. ARE there? Heck if I freaking know. Could there perhaps instead be a whole other concept that nobody has even remotely grasped at? ...Maybe? I dunno!

Frankly... I tend to think the real answer is more like "we *cant* understand the truth". Life, death, the concept of "deities", and so on... people like to think of those things in ways they can "understand", when it may not be POSSIBLE for our frankly weak minds to grasp these yet. Like trying to visualize a 4-dimensional object: You *cant*. It's not that the concept of 4 dimensions doesnt work... mathematically, it absolutely does. But you can strain that brain of yours all day, all week, all year, and you will NEVER actually get a mental image of a 4-dimensional object. You... cant. It is BARELY on the boundary of something that can be understood, and only because throwing lots of numbers at it reveals that it is there, and reveals some of the functionality behind it. Even so... the mind cant handle it and isnt formatted to deal with it, so visualization is not possible.

Does that make any sense? I'm not sure, I just ramble and hope something coherent comes out.

Of course, that line of thinking can go to some dark places... I wont go there. With so much free time, I will naturally try to theorize about this stuff sometimes, and every now and then... well, yeah, it gets more than a little distressing. An effect of the type of things I constantly read, no doubt, my mind will always take a sharp turn towards the dark and freaky when given the chance. Even with things that SHOULD seem purely good. Like this:



Boy has THIS concept been bothering me lately. I've already discussed this and things related to the concept with a couple of others on this forum... if either of you are reading this by chance, you know who you are.

The idea that *something* has focused on me has certainly occurred to me, I'll put it that way. Guardian angel or quantum weirdness, I cant be sure. But, dark-minded as I am, I find this concept very... disconcerting. I'm told it's surely a positive, but... that potential for "bad" in it wont stop nagging at me.

That's a whole other funky topic though that I wont go into here.


Bah, I'm rambling aimlessly again. It's close to bedtime and I didnt sleep all that well last night, so I do apologize for that. I get less coherent when that happens.

But anyway, that's just my general thoughts on all that stuff. Not all that much else for me to say, really. I'm mostly just posting about it at all because it was randomly on my mind and I happened to see this topic while just clicking around the forum.

Yes to all of this. I loved all your examples. If we haven't yet explored the universe or even the deepest parts of our own ocean, how can we even say we know everything? We can barely work together to save our own planet, I'd say in my mind, mankind I'd still very primitive.

I also have my own theories, although not dark, but definitely controversial and some would consider laughable, but I won't discuss those here...

Best summation I can think of is a quote from Socrates: "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."

 

[LadyS]

That's an interesting perspective. I think religious people rely on thinking there is a god cause they are frightened about what happens after we die.

So we both think the other believes what we do out of fear. Go figure.

What is the "unexplained" thing you feel atheists are fearful of?

I think it makes sense. Atheists rely heavily on the knowing and specific knowledge and concrete facts. So when presented with something that doesn't make sense in the realm of concrete knowledge, it throws a wrench in the house of cards. The not knowing can create fear BUT science also thrives in the not knowing, in seeking answers to open questions, as long as ego doesn't get involved.

Conversely, religious folk also have fear as you described. The fear drives to find the simplest explanations for unseen forces. Invariably, this is how ancient cultures supposedly came up with the idea of Gods, to explain things like the Sun, the stars, seasons and weather. It makes more sense that a conscienceable force is making things happen for a reason, something in our own image (once again Ego). Not to mention use fear as a tool to make sure everyone follows the rules and conform.

Ultimately, the fear of the unknown is primal to all humans regardless of beliefs.

 

[Skittlebisquit]

I'm not agnostic. I have a question though, ignore it if it's too weird or if you don't like it.

Do you think that it's a difference in people, whether or not they have a spiritual side or accept religions? Like how people are either gay or straight and like whether you are right handed? So what I am asking is are some people predisposed to have a religious/spiritual belief system?

It seems like it to me. No offense intended. I'm a curious person philosophically

 

[LadyS]

I'm not agnostic. I have a question though, ignore it if it's too weird or if you don't like it.

Do you think that it's a difference in people, whether or not they have a spiritual side or accept religions? Like how people are either gay or straight and like whether you are right handed? So what I am asking is are some people predisposed to have a religious/spiritual belief system?

It seems like it to me. No offense intended. I'm a curious person philosophically

I was just thinking exactly this. Our brains are all wired differently based on different factors (genetics, environment, personal experiences, etc) so it would make sense that we all see and explain our realities differently. There have been studies done for how left-leaning and right-leaning people on the political spectrum have different brain structures:

Red Brain, Blue Brain: Evaluative Processes Differ in Democrats and Republicans

Conservative and Liberal Brains Might Have Some Real Differences

And there have been many articles on religion too which only takes a google search:
Ask the Brains

Are the Brains of Atheists Different to Those of Religious People? - Neuroscience News

I guess this is why I claim more of an agnostic approach, as I can only reason with what I currently have and know which is still limited. And which is also why I always like hearing about others' experiences.

 

[LadyS]

...Or think of it this way: Everything you currently know is due to the fact that someone else has discovered and done the work for you. Einstein, Newton, Darwin, etc. If none of these people found out the knowledge, would you still know what you believe to be true? Probably not, because no one single human can know it all or even have the brain capacity to do the painstaking research to answer all the hard questions. Each scientist found only a piece of the puzzle because even they still questioned everything.

With that said, I think it's important to ask why the fixation on the need to be right?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...would be a most,cautious about a wrong answer.

 

[Barymore]

@LadyS - sorry if I barged in on the topic and was not specifically adressed, I just got very excited (think labrador or something, wagging stuff off of a coffee table!)

I completely agree with you on the shortcomings of the scientific process. The issues of achieving tenure, the pressure to publish and the focus on positive results all have negative impacts on the 'purity' of the process.
However this does not invalidate the process as a whole, especially as I see little alternative to it. Arguing "scientific process is imperfect, it hasnt answered all Qs SO THERE MUST BE A GOD /GODS" is flawed reasoning. Without relying on faith as a catch-all, how can you argue there is a god? Or perhaps more interesting: how to reconcile faith and the scientific process? Is this possible without compartmentalizing?

I do lean heavily to facts and evidence, the scientific process, however, is mutable and understanding this has led me on an interesting path - lets take the paranormal, that has been belittled as you point out. There is some interesting research going on and this has changed my views to the point where I hold the opinion there are some fascinating things happening that warrant further investigation and the results are likely to reveal the unexpected. Before, I would have just said "bah, humbug!"
So I do rely heavily on evidence and reasoning, but not knowing or contrary evidence doesnt throw a wrench in it for me - its exciting!
To boldly go where no (wo)man has gone before!!
Peace, everyone

 

[Streetwise]

That's an interesting perspective. I think religious people rely on thinking there is a god cause they are frightened about what happens after we die.

So we both think the other believes what we do out of fear. Go figure.

What is the "unexplained" thing you feel atheists are fearful of?

they can't explain the supernatural therefore they belittle or disrespect someone who does respect it

 

[Misery]

However this does not invalidate the process as a whole, especially as I see little alternative to it. Arguing "scientific process is imperfect, it hasnt answered all Qs SO THERE MUST BE A GOD /GODS" is flawed reasoning. Without relying on faith as a catch-all, how can you argue there is a god?

Ah, but this works the other way around too. With science having scratched about .000001% of reality as a whole, how can there even be an ATTEMPT to guess at the nonexistence of a god/gods?

The reason why someone might think that God (or whatever) exists is often far more complicated than you're giving them credit for... in most cases I *very* highly doubt that "science cant figure it out, so there" is the reason.

This also goes for those who have other beliefs, or whatever. If you were to ask me to REALLY explain some of the stuff I was talking about, it wouldnt be one simple sentence, or a paragraph, or a page. It'd probably be some 500 page, incoherent disaster, because that kind of belief / worldview doesnt come around simply *because*.

And honestly, I tend to think a lot of atheists do this: assume that someone who believes in God (or whatever) does so for a very silly and simple reason. What that reason is could be anything, but.... I'm going to guess that "silly and simple" is the main bit that occurs to those that are belittling others for their beliefs.

And, it's the same for a lot of really strict religious sorts: they'll assume that someone who doesnt believe wont/cant do so for some equally silly/simple reason.

Beliefs overall, things of this nature, are forged over a huuuuuuuge span of time in most cases. To make assumptions like that about why/how someone does/could believe what they believe is to do them a grave disservice, I think. This is one of the reasons why, as I said, people barging into topics/rooms/whatever to shove their own belief up someone else's nose drives me up the wall so much... it is mean and disrespectful enough that it comes very, very close to bullying in my mind.

And really even if someone does give you an explanation of why/how they believe something... they're only giving part of it. Again, forged over years. You cant TRULY give a full explanation in a couple of posts on the bloody internet. You can TRY, but it wont be complete regardless.

If you want to know the answer to the very sort of question you asked in that quote, it will take far, far more than merely asking it in order to receive that answer.

 

[Jeremiah]

I consider my self agnostic, and also apatheistic.