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Ancient Egypt and the Bible

Greatshield17

Claritas Prayer Group#9435
Since I've stopped be here briefly, I figured I'd share this Youtube channel I've been watching lately: Ancient Egypt and the Bible

While Dr. David Falk does hold some things I disagree with, his videos are overall quite good, they're a great thing for me to listen to and get my mind off of other things that would otherwise irritate me.
 
I checked out two of the videos, but I 'm not convinced, sorry. The guy is too Christian for my taste.
I like two Egyptology podcasts: "Afterlives" by Kara Cooney and "the History of Egypt" by Dominic Perry - far more informative than Dr. Falk. But that's just my opinion of course.
 
I checked out two of the videos, but I 'm not convinced, sorry. The guy is too Christian for my taste.
I like two Egyptology podcasts: "Afterlives" by Kara Cooney and "the History of Egypt" by Dominic Perry - far more informative than Dr. Falk. But that's just my opinion of course.
I disagree with him on the deuterocanon, mainly because he ignores the arguments in its favour. You wouldn't ignore any arguments simply because they're Christian would you? I mean I accept you not watching him simply because he's "too Christian," just as I hope you would be okay with me not checking out certain Egyptologist podcasts because they're too pagan or atheistic; but if a Pro-Christian argument about Egypt was presented to you, I assume you'd be honest enough to look at it, considered, it then either refute or accept it; just as you or someone were to present to me a position like, Horus was born 3 days after the winter solstice, I would certainly not dismiss it but take a look at it and try to refute it.
 
I apologize, I might have been clearer about it: it's not so much the arguments, it's the choice of topics and the tone. For one, I just didn't find the list of topics very appealing. And second, when I watched the one about Serapis and Jesus I agreed with his position - Serapis is NOT a close parallel to Jesus - but I didn't like how he used Apis for comic effect and explained how Jesus and the resurrection is apparently so much more impressive than Osiris. Those are simply two different religious concepts, I don't think you should rate religions by the category of " most impressive miracle story".

Concerning Horus and his birthday, I'd be very interested to hear about the source. Is there a festival calendar that supports this date?
The only birthday of Horus I know of is during the Epagomenal days, just before New Years Day - as according to the Heliopolitan Myth of Creation and the Ennead. That's Egyptian New Year, of course, that's in summer.
 
I apologize, I might have been clearer about it: it's not so much the arguments, it's the choice of topics and the tone. For one, I just didn't find the list of topics very appealing. And second, when I watched the one about Serapis and Jesus I agreed with his position - Serapis is NOT a close parallel to Jesus - but I didn't like how he used Apis for comic effect and explained how Jesus and the resurrection is apparently so much more impressive than Osiris. Those are simply two different religious concepts, I don't think you should rate religions by the category of " most impressive miracle story".
I see, thanks, that clarifies things a lot; sorry about that.

Concerning Horus and his birthday, I'd be very interested to hear about the source. Is there a festival calendar that supports this date?
The only birthday of Horus I know of is during the Epagomenal days, just before New Years Day - as according to the Heliopolitan Myth of Creation and the Ennead. That's Egyptian New Year, of course, that's in summer.
Interesting stuff,

Actually in regards to the claim Horus was born on the 25th, there is zero evidence to support this, it’s a myth (And I don’t mean in a Mythos or Mythology sense), used by Atheists, Pagans and the like to try and prove that Jesus never existed or the like; (I’ve been seeing a lot of stuff like this, this time of year as usual) apparently it comes from late 19th or early 20th century German charlatan who had no expertise in real Egyptology, and yet his fabrications are still used some of the above mentioned people today:

By the way, there is proof that Christ was born on the 25th of December in St. Luke’s Gospel; but I’ll spare you the detail on all that.
 
The only real connection between Horus and Jesus, in my opinion, is the artistic convention of Maria with baby Jesus on her lap. That one just looks exactly like Isis with Horus on her lap. But even here, a historical connection cannot be proven, afaik, it's simply a striking similarity in composition.
People like to point out other parallels, like being a child god, a foretold king and persecuted in their youth, but all those are common symbols and narrations and not unique to Horus and Jesus.

I'm a pagan by faith, but I have no desire to prove how your baby god is a copy of one of my baby gods... Where is the sense in that? Mythology has always been exchanged and developed variations among different cultures, and still every story is unique in some way.
 
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I hope don't me asking, but what do you know about Arks and Barques in Egyptian religion? I have a devotion to Mary, and She's considered among other things, the Living Ark of the New Testament (see 5:30 in the video below), Dr. David Falk and others notice connections between the Ark of the Old Covenant and various aspects of Egyptian religion, like barques; what do you know about this?

IMG_8654.jpeg
 
I hope don't me asking, but what do you know about Arks and Barques in Egyptian religion? I have a devotion to Mary, and She's considered among other things, the Living Ark of the New Testament (see 5:30 in the video below), Dr. David Falk and others notice connections between the Ark of the Old Covenant and various aspects of Egyptian religion, like barques; what do you know about this?

The Ark of the Convenant and the virgin Mary? Sure I have thoughts on the Egyptian parallels. I'll even try to keep it short.


The Ark of the Covenant has a very close parallel in the ancient Egyptian ceremonial barques.

Those were shaped like ships and could be several meters long, but the smaller versions didn’t float on water, priests carried them on their shoulders in procession on long carrying poles - just like the Ark of the Covenant was transported. Sometimes the barques even travelled the river on real boats – there are depictions of a small boat carried in a big boat :) (but often there would also be a separate, larger ceremonial barque that could travel on the river)

The procession, be it by land or by water, was the main event of most Egyptian religious festivals: The statue of the God, which was usually hidden away in the temple sanctuary, now travelled in its festival barque in a procession (often from one temple to another). This is the closest that common people could ever get to the cult images of the state gods. It was a huge event for the people of a city to witness their god leaving the holiest of holies and moving through their midst. Even though the cult image was still at least partially veiled in a shrine...

Those ceremonial barques, like the Ark of Covenant, were made from the finest materials and decorated with the head of their god on the prow. There’s a famous bit of ancient Egyptian literature that tells about the misadventures of a guy called Wenamun, who is sent to the Levant to get the finest cedar wood for a new barque of Amun.
The barques also rested in their own barque shrines in the temple when not in use.

There’s also the Sun Barque, the morning and evening ships that the sun god Ra uses to travel across the sky. And of course the idea of the Sun Barque is connected to those ceremonial barques. But since the Ark of the Covenant is described as being an actual physical object, its link to the ceremonial barques described above is much closer.
Here's a bit more info:


However, there is no link between the barque and any of the mother goddesses of Egypt. They are never, to my knowledge, described as the personified “barque carrying the young god”.

A somewhat similar motive can be found in Isis, whose Egyptian name can be translated as “seat, place” – she can be conceptualized as the actual throne carrying the young king Horus.

Isis is often compared to virgin Mary. But if you look at the Isis of Egypt’s imperial age (that’s the third and second Millenium BCE) the parallels are actually not that close.

Isis is not characterized by her purity and piety like Mary. Instead, she is a protective mother, characterized by her vast magical power and great cunning. She is not one who waits for an angel to tell her about the impending conception… she travels the entire land to collect the limbs of her dead, dismembered husband, she literally puts him together again, returns him to a semblance of life by her magic and hovers over his erect phallus in the shape of a kestrel to get pregnant with Horus.
She then proceeds to birth and raise the child Horus on her own, protecting and healing him until he grows strong enough to challenge Seth for the kingship. And even when Horus is grown, she still remains and active and guiding influence – read the “Contendings of Horus and Seth” and you’ll see what I mean.

Actually, if I look at the concept of Mary as the “new ark”, the one who carries and surrounds the god… the other parallel concept I see here is the “Celestial Cow”.

The celestial cow is a form of the sky goddess Nut, who lifts up and carries the Sun God. There are images of the Ra as a child, sitting on the head of the huge cow and holding on to her horns while she lifts him up. (main source is the “Book of the Celestial Cow” first attested on the golden shrines of Tutankhamun)
Other images show Nut, either as a woman or as a cow, with the sun god travelling along her vast body in his barque. She birthes him in the morning and swallows him in the evening in an eternal cycle.

And if we go even further back in time, to the oldest bits of Egyptian religion that may have existed even before 3000 BCE, there’s Hathor and Horus. (not Horus, son of Isis. A different god named Horus, who is called “Horus the great” or “Horus the Elder”. Horus simply means “the high one” or “the one above” in the Egyptian language).
We don’t have any detailed myths from that era, because writing was just being invented and was only used for labelling wine bottles and for names on tombstones at this point. (no joke. One of the oldest existing bits of hieroglyphic writing is a label for a wine jar). Anyways, we don’t have an older myth in a fully detailed text. But we know about the falcon god, Horus the Elder, who is addressed as a god of the sky with sun and moon being his eyes. And then there is Hathor, one of the oldest known deities of Egypt, with her close links to the celestial cow (same crown, same animal shape) - and her name, Hathor, is literally “Hwt Hr”: “Temple of Horus”. It’s even written like this in hieroglyphs: a falcon, Horus, sitting in a square enclosure, that’s the sign for “Hwt”, meaning temple, house or realm.
So I’m sure you can see the similarity between the sun god Ra being lifted up by sky goddess Nut, and being born and swallowed by her in an eternal cycle – and Horus, god of sky and light, and the cow-shaped goddess who is called the “realm of Horus”, as in: the vast sky who surrounds the falcon.

Anyway, those would be my thoughts. I tried to keep it short, but I guess didn't succeed all that well. If you need some more sources, literature or elaboration on any of those points let me know.
 
The Ark of the Convenant and the virgin Mary? Sure I have thoughts on the Egyptian parallels. I'll even try to keep it short.


The Ark of the Covenant has a very close parallel in the ancient Egyptian ceremonial barques.

Those were shaped like ships and could be several meters long, but the smaller versions didn’t float on water, priests carried them on their shoulders in procession on long carrying poles - just like the Ark of the Covenant was transported. Sometimes the barques even travelled the river on real boats – there are depictions of a small boat carried in a big boat :) (but often there would also be a separate, larger ceremonial barque that could travel on the river)

The procession, be it by land or by water, was the main event of most Egyptian religious festivals: The statue of the God, which was usually hidden away in the temple sanctuary, now travelled in its festival barque in a procession (often from one temple to another). This is the closest that common people could ever get to the cult images of the state gods. It was a huge event for the people of a city to witness their god leaving the holiest of holies and moving through their midst. Even though the cult image was still at least partially veiled in a shrine...

Those ceremonial barques, like the Ark of Covenant, were made from the finest materials and decorated with the head of their god on the prow. There’s a famous bit of ancient Egyptian literature that tells about the misadventures of a guy called Wenamun, who is sent to the Levant to get the finest cedar wood for a new barque of Amun.
The barques also rested in their own barque shrines in the temple when not in use.

There’s also the Sun Barque, the morning and evening ships that the sun god Ra uses to travel across the sky. And of course the idea of the Sun Barque is connected to those ceremonial barques. But since the Ark of the Covenant is described as being an actual physical object, its link to the ceremonial barques described above is much closer.
Here's a bit more info:


However, there is no link between the barque and any of the mother goddesses of Egypt. They are never, to my knowledge, described as the personified “barque carrying the young god”.

A somewhat similar motive can be found in Isis, whose Egyptian name can be translated as “seat, place” – she can be conceptualized as the actual throne carrying the young king Horus.

Isis is often compared to virgin Mary. But if you look at the Isis of Egypt’s imperial age (that’s the third and second Millenium BCE) the parallels are actually not that close.

Isis is not characterized by her purity and piety like Mary. Instead, she is a protective mother, characterized by her vast magical power and great cunning. She is not one who waits for an angel to tell her about the impending conception… she travels the entire land to collect the limbs of her dead, dismembered husband, she literally puts him together again, returns him to a semblance of life by her magic and hovers over his erect phallus in the shape of a kestrel to get pregnant with Horus.
She then proceeds to birth and raise the child Horus on her own, protecting and healing him until he grows strong enough to challenge Seth for the kingship. And even when Horus is grown, she still remains and active and guiding influence – read the “Contendings of Horus and Seth” and you’ll see what I mean.

Actually, if I look at the concept of Mary as the “new ark”, the one who carries and surrounds the god… the other parallel concept I see here is the “Celestial Cow”.

The celestial cow is a form of the sky goddess Nut, who lifts up and carries the Sun God. There are images of the Ra as a child, sitting on the head of the huge cow and holding on to her horns while she lifts him up. (main source is the “Book of the Celestial Cow” first attested on the golden shrines of Tutankhamun)
Other images show Nut, either as a woman or as a cow, with the sun god travelling along her vast body in his barque. She birthes him in the morning and swallows him in the evening in an eternal cycle.

And if we go even further back in time, to the oldest bits of Egyptian religion that may have existed even before 3000 BCE, there’s Hathor and Horus. (not Horus, son of Isis. A different god named Horus, who is called “Horus the great” or “Horus the Elder”. Horus simply means “the high one” or “the one above” in the Egyptian language).
We don’t have any detailed myths from that era, because writing was just being invented and was only used for labelling wine bottles and for names on tombstones at this point. (no joke. One of the oldest existing bits of hieroglyphic writing is a label for a wine jar). Anyways, we don’t have an older myth in a fully detailed text. But we know about the falcon god, Horus the Elder, who is addressed as a god of the sky with sun and moon being his eyes. And then there is Hathor, one of the oldest known deities of Egypt, with her close links to the celestial cow (same crown, same animal shape) - and her name, Hathor, is literally “Hwt Hr”: “Temple of Horus”. It’s even written like this in hieroglyphs: a falcon, Horus, sitting in a square enclosure, that’s the sign for “Hwt”, meaning temple, house or realm.
So I’m sure you can see the similarity between the sun god Ra being lifted up by sky goddess Nut, and being born and swallowed by her in an eternal cycle – and Horus, god of sky and light, and the cow-shaped goddess who is called the “realm of Horus”, as in: the vast sky who surrounds the falcon.

Anyway, those would be my thoughts. I tried to keep it short, but I guess didn't succeed all that well. If you need some more sources, literature or elaboration on any of those points let me know.
Thanks, I won't be able to read all this now, but I'll be sure to go through it when I have the time.
 
The Ark of the Convenant and the virgin Mary? Sure I have thoughts on the Egyptian parallels. I'll even try to keep it short.


The Ark of the Covenant has a very close parallel in the ancient Egyptian ceremonial barques.

Those were shaped like ships and could be several meters long, but the smaller versions didn’t float on water, priests carried them on their shoulders in procession on long carrying poles - just like the Ark of the Covenant was transported. Sometimes the barques even travelled the river on real boats – there are depictions of a small boat carried in a big boat :) (but often there would also be a separate, larger ceremonial barque that could travel on the river)

The procession, be it by land or by water, was the main event of most Egyptian religious festivals: The statue of the God, which was usually hidden away in the temple sanctuary, now travelled in its festival barque in a procession (often from one temple to another). This is the closest that common people could ever get to the cult images of the state gods. It was a huge event for the people of a city to witness their god leaving the holiest of holies and moving through their midst. Even though the cult image was still at least partially veiled in a shrine...

Those ceremonial barques, like the Ark of Covenant, were made from the finest materials and decorated with the head of their god on the prow. There’s a famous bit of ancient Egyptian literature that tells about the misadventures of a guy called Wenamun, who is sent to the Levant to get the finest cedar wood for a new barque of Amun.
The barques also rested in their own barque shrines in the temple when not in use.

There’s also the Sun Barque, the morning and evening ships that the sun god Ra uses to travel across the sky. And of course the idea of the Sun Barque is connected to those ceremonial barques. But since the Ark of the Covenant is described as being an actual physical object, its link to the ceremonial barques described above is much closer.
Here's a bit more info:


However, there is no link between the barque and any of the mother goddesses of Egypt. They are never, to my knowledge, described as the personified “barque carrying the young god”.

A somewhat similar motive can be found in Isis, whose Egyptian name can be translated as “seat, place” – she can be conceptualized as the actual throne carrying the young king Horus.

Isis is often compared to virgin Mary. But if you look at the Isis of Egypt’s imperial age (that’s the third and second Millenium BCE) the parallels are actually not that close.

Isis is not characterized by her purity and piety like Mary. Instead, she is a protective mother, characterized by her vast magical power and great cunning. She is not one who waits for an angel to tell her about the impending conception… she travels the entire land to collect the limbs of her dead, dismembered husband, she literally puts him together again, returns him to a semblance of life by her magic and hovers over his erect phallus in the shape of a kestrel to get pregnant with Horus.
She then proceeds to birth and raise the child Horus on her own, protecting and healing him until he grows strong enough to challenge Seth for the kingship. And even when Horus is grown, she still remains and active and guiding influence – read the “Contendings of Horus and Seth” and you’ll see what I mean.

Actually, if I look at the concept of Mary as the “new ark”, the one who carries and surrounds the god… the other parallel concept I see here is the “Celestial Cow”.

The celestial cow is a form of the sky goddess Nut, who lifts up and carries the Sun God. There are images of the Ra as a child, sitting on the head of the huge cow and holding on to her horns while she lifts him up. (main source is the “Book of the Celestial Cow” first attested on the golden shrines of Tutankhamun)
Other images show Nut, either as a woman or as a cow, with the sun god travelling along her vast body in his barque. She birthes him in the morning and swallows him in the evening in an eternal cycle.

And if we go even further back in time, to the oldest bits of Egyptian religion that may have existed even before 3000 BCE, there’s Hathor and Horus. (not Horus, son of Isis. A different god named Horus, who is called “Horus the great” or “Horus the Elder”. Horus simply means “the high one” or “the one above” in the Egyptian language).
We don’t have any detailed myths from that era, because writing was just being invented and was only used for labelling wine bottles and for names on tombstones at this point. (no joke. One of the oldest existing bits of hieroglyphic writing is a label for a wine jar). Anyways, we don’t have an older myth in a fully detailed text. But we know about the falcon god, Horus the Elder, who is addressed as a god of the sky with sun and moon being his eyes. And then there is Hathor, one of the oldest known deities of Egypt, with her close links to the celestial cow (same crown, same animal shape) - and her name, Hathor, is literally “Hwt Hr”: “Temple of Horus”. It’s even written like this in hieroglyphs: a falcon, Horus, sitting in a square enclosure, that’s the sign for “Hwt”, meaning temple, house or realm.
So I’m sure you can see the similarity between the sun god Ra being lifted up by sky goddess Nut, and being born and swallowed by her in an eternal cycle – and Horus, god of sky and light, and the cow-shaped goddess who is called the “realm of Horus”, as in: the vast sky who surrounds the falcon.

Anyway, those would be my thoughts. I tried to keep it short, but I guess didn't succeed all that well. If you need some more sources, literature or elaboration on any of those points let me know.
Okay I read it all, thanks for sharing this. :)
 
@Kemetic out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on Atenism? Not necessarily in regards to it's alleged relations with Old Covenant Judaism, but in general?

 
@Kemetic out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on Atenism? Not necessarily in regards to it's alleged relations with Old Covenant Judaism, but in general?
Well, I don't actually have that many.
Atenism in its earlier form was nothing special. Just another king who elevated his favoured deity to the main focus of the state cult. The same had been done with Ra in the Old Kingdom and Amun in the Middle and New Kingdom.
Just then a crazy fanatic got crowned and pushed it from Henotheism towards Monotheism.

To elaborate this a bit, there are some aspects of the Aten and of Atenism that are really nothing special in Egyptian history. Such as:
- addressing a deity as sole creator of the whole world
- addressing a deity as supreme in power
- praising the sun god for creating plants and wildlife as well as humans
- focusing the royal state cult and many of the available resources on one single deity
- changing the theology and incorporating new ideas and interpretations
- creating syncretism, as in merging two or more gods or describing one god as a certain form or aspect of another god (as is done with Aten in the older titulary)
- royal propaganda that postulates the king having a unique and close relationship with the main god

All of that had been done before. With all of the legend of the sacred birth and the focus on Amun and the temple of Karnak, the 18th Dynastie kings preceding Akhenaten really laid a solid foundation for the rise of Atenism.
If Akhenaten would have stopped after his building the Gem-pa-Aten in Karnak and been happy with worshipping his sun god and perhaps diverting some funds away from Amun and towards the new cult... he may have gotten away with it and the whole affair would have remained a curious but largely unremarkable feature in his reign.

But the mad kind (and yes, I truly believe that he was pretty crazy, some form of narcissism and paranoia) didn't stop but turn it into an extremist form.
All of the things I mentioned earlier, all of those traditional ways of elevating one deity, it had never been exclusive, more situational. I like to explain it like this: in Egyptian tradition, you can walk into the temple of Amun, praise him as the sole creator, the King of all gods, the greatest. And then you can turn around, walk into the temple of Ptah, and praise HIM as the sole creator, king of all gods etc. And this is not perceived as a contradiction: all gods can take various shapes and forms, and if you want to praise the creator of all things, you can praise several different gods in this role, they are just like different aspects and forms of each other.
Akhenaten however, he changed that. He distanced himself from all tradition, literally, by building a new capital city. He disrespected the old gods, said that they had no power any longer and denied them their proper place. He also tried to change some old religious narratives, especially in the area of funerary culture. He waged a war against Amun. And finally he even started denying the existence of any other gods.
And so, in going too fast and too far without having a real backing apart from his immediate followers and family, he sowed the seeds of his own destruction.

Among the common people Atenism never caught on, the commoners mostly didn't even notice that religious episode I believe.
Among the elites, there were those who profited from the kings favor, but I think they followed him more for their personal gain than some kind of religious fervor.
There's a lot of speculation that Akhenaten wasn't actually that religious, he was just waging a political war against the priesthood of Amun... but I don't buy that. The religious fervor shines through all too clearly in his texts and deeds. The conflict with the priesthood of Amun surely existed but I don't think it was his main motivation.

If you want my honest personal opinion (probably not, seeing as you are a monotheist) - well I just think that monotheism is a bad idea in general, it creates much more problems than it solves, and the Egyptians had the right idea in abandoning this experiment. But that's just me.
 

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