an eye contact contract?

[Judge]

I know military well, having had 2 long term relationships with career military men, and family members who are cops. It actually is an easier way to navigate life though harsh, and sometimes cruel.

Yeah, it's a real dichotomy from an autistic perspective. The regimentation and simplicity and overall conditional aspect of everyday life can be quite appealing. However equally it involves a demand for group thinking and group living and eschewing any sense of individuality. Where obtaining solitude may only be the result of obtaining a liberty pass. And having a severe aversion to cigarette smoke in a smoking subculture wouldn't have helped.

I still recall how social demands were made upon me as a child pertaining to some very adult functions that I never understood at that age. Going to a party with complete strangers was bad enough. But in this case it involved my father's superior officer, and that my presence was considered "mandatory" for his kid's birthday. I still look back on that with horror. But at least now I know why.

Most of all I recall how much my mother was opposed to my going into the military as opposed to my father, who thought I would do well in that environment. Mom was right, of course. Luckily so was my "sixth sense" of such things. Yet I did nearly join the Air Force.

 

[55853]

LOL....something WAY WORSE than cultural differences (in a traditional sense) or non-verbal signs.

Now you will understand what I meant by "perspective". You see, I was raised in a career military household with numerous relatives in federal law enforcement. Where all the adults in my immediate orbit placed tremendous emphasis on such social dynamics. Far beyond that of you "civilians".

Where clarity and fidelity through body language is steeped in their "culture". Of course from their point of view, whatever undesirable traits and behaviors I had could be transformed through "adapting and overcoming" them all. Not because I agreed with them, but because I was ordered to do so.

THAT was how I became able to look people in the eye by the time I was an adolescent. Though it still remains somewhat uncomfortable for me in doing as such. Small wonder I became adept at masking my traits and behaviors in general. Because I perceived those "consequences" at a very early- and impressionable age given my home environment. Yet all the time no one including myself ever gave a thought to autism. But then I'm not even sure it would have mattered to my family who lived in a world of "Can't Means Won't".

And you will see mine. I'm from Northwestern Europe, which I've seen stereotyped online with images such as:

Far less eye contact here, I imagine. None of my relatives who have been in the military have been like you describe, so do you think it's down to cultural differences in terms of countries?

 

[55853]

I said that it is way of society, salesmanship, customer service, law enforcement, and just in general can mean a whole lot of misleading things. Lack or eye contact means many things to many people, but a boss at a job would not approve, nor would a police officer, or a high school principle. If you are not of color, or have never been in trouble with the law, or been admonished at your job for not being “customer friendly, then you would naturally not understand what I mean. Being in the ND spectrum also means you might have been sheltered away, and never had to deal with any of it.

I have never had this conversation with people on the autism spectrum before, and did not know just how much of an issue eye contact was until joining these forums and learning.

I did NOT say that I judge or label people like that. One cannot change society though.

I'm sorry, I don't understand how that's a reply to me, did you mean to quote me? I don't understand how anything I've said connects with what you've wrote here.

 

[Mary Anne]

And you will see mine. I'm from Northwestern Europe, which I've seen stereotyped online with images such as:

Far less eye contact here, I imagine. None of my relatives who have been in the military have been like you describe, so do you think it's down to cultural differences in terms of countries?

 

[Judge]

None of my relatives who have been in the military have been like you describe, so do you think it's down to cultural differences in terms of countries?

I do know that military cultures vary from one country to another. Whether that is indicative of their nationality or to what degree I can't say. Not to mention that military cultures can in some instances vary in accordance with the branch of service they represent within a country.

From my own perspective it's not uncommon to observe a very different view of life in the military versus that of being a civilian. Without any consideration to nationality. In my own case I grew up in a complex world of being "caught in between".

 

[Mary Anne]

And you will see mine. I'm from Northwestern Europe, which I've seen stereotyped online with images such as:

Far less eye contact here, I imagine. None of my relatives who have been in the military have been like you describe, so do you think it's down to cultural differences in terms of countries?

I look at your photos and can only dream of the pleasantness. Here in the USA one is forced to stand and sit squashed like sardines on public transportation. People stand, sit, and are way too close for my need for a 3 foot surround of personal space. I envy those photos of yours! People are everywhere....too much, too loud, too close. Can I come live there please? It’s even way worse in places like India, or Japan. People are everywhere.

 

[Mary Anne]

Yeah, it's a real dichotomy from an autistic perspective. The regimentation and simplicity and overall conditional aspect of everyday life can be quite appealing. However equally it involves a demand for group thinking and group living and eschewing any sense of individuality. Where obtaining solitude may only be the result of obtaining a liberty pass. And having a severe aversion to cigarette smoke in a smoking subculture wouldn't have helped.

I still recall how social demands were made upon me as a child pertaining to some very adult functions that I never understood at that age. Going to a party with complete strangers was bad enough. But in this case it involved my father's superior officer, and that my presence was considered "mandatory" for his kid's birthday. I still look back on that with horror. But at least now I know why.

Most of all I recall how much my mother was opposed to my going into the military as opposed to my father, who thought I would do well in that environment. Mom was right, of course. Luckily so was my "sixth sense" of such things. Yet I did nearly join the Air Force.

It is my own perspective that joining the military would have been good for me! The rules, attention to detail, training and discipline are cast in stone. Everyone has to do the same, and one could mask whatever ND they had while there.

 

[Mary Anne]

I'm sorry, I don't understand how that's a reply to me, did you mean to quote me? I don't understand how anything I've said connects with what you've wrote here.

I have clearly explained the connectionto what you stated about all things eye contact in society. I am sorry if it alludes you. Communication I can see is somewhat strained. How can I make myself understood? Yes, everything I said pertains to exactly what you have been posting about.

 

[Judge]

It is my own perspective that joining the military would have been good for me! The rules, attention to detail, training and discipline are cast in stone. Everyone has to do the same, and one could mask whatever ND they had while there.

For some it works. For others, not so much. Some of our members have some interesting perspectives on their military service relative to their autism. Both positive and negative accounts.

Sadly the one immediate relative I suspect to be on the spectrum as I am, was once in the Marine Corps. He did very well in boot camp, and flourished as an aviation mechanic. He was a good soldier, IMO.

However as is the case with most Marine NCOs at a certain point in their military career he was ordered to do a tour in recruitment. Something he felt categorically unsuited for. (No surprise there.) He ended up in a heated argument with his CO, and it ended catastrophically. Striking an officer, and all.

The good news was that for those years he spent in the brig, he learned to be an excellent pastry chef. As a civilian he's thriving to this very day. I doubt he has much interaction with others in baking deserts. Good for him! But it was such a tough road for him to get there.

 

[55853]

I look at your photos and can only dream of the pleasantness. Here in the USA one is forced to stand and sit squashed like sardines on public transportation. People stand, sit, and are way too close for my need for a 3 foot surround of personal space. I envy those photos of yours! People are everywhere....too much, too loud, too close. Can I come live there please? It’s even way worse in places like India, or Japan. People are everywhere.

Those are photos that live up to stereotypes rather than realistic photos of rush-hour.

 

[Mary Anne]

Those are photos that live up to stereotypes rather than realistic photos of rush-hour.

Ohhhh, you bashed my fantasy of where you live! Not sure why you posted them?

 

[55853]

Ohhhh, you bashed my fantasy of where you live! Not sure why you posted them?

To illustrate that stereotype associated with Northwestern Europe, for those not familiar. I've seen it circling the internet that we've cold, reserved, etc. with images like that as evidence. Would explain there being lower eye contact expectations.

I have clearly explained the connectionto what you stated about all things eye contact in society. I am sorry if it alludes you. Communication I can see is somewhat strained. How can I make myself understood? Yes, everything I said pertains to exactly what you have been posting about.

Alright, then I will try replying.

Being in the ND spectrum also means you might have been sheltered away, and never had to deal with any of it.

No, I grew up without a diagnosis or any help. Although I was never pressured with eye contact, which may be due to cultural differences outlined above, I've had other pressures. Talking about them would need its own post, I think.

did not know just how much of an issue eye contact was

It is not for me, although again it may be cultural.

I did NOT say that I judge or label people like that. One cannot change society though.

I'm confused, what makes you think I thought you said that? Could you quote what in particular you are replying to?

 

[Mary Anne]

I am getting a headache from all the past hours online today.
I can’t. I am sorry, but I need to turn off the computer...my brain is shorting out right now. Too many posts, too many thread topics, and too many .....it’s all too much.

 

[Anthracite]

I can't do eye contact, I don't care what "society" thinks of that. Either they deal with it or walk.

 

[Mary Anne]

I can't do eye contact, I don't care what "society" thinks of that. Either they deal with it or walk.

It is us that suffer - not “society.” We get fired , can’t hold down jobs, it’s us that loses out! And if you are an urban young person, it can have very real consequences as far as police etc.

If you never plan to deal with society, then that’s a fine attitude.

 

[wadorama]

It is us that suffer - not “society.” We get fired , can’t hold down jobs, it’s us that loses out! And if you are an urban young person, it can have very real consequences as far as police etc.

If you never plan to deal with society, then that’s a fine attitude.

agreed Mary Anne. this particular aversion seems less like an advantage and more like something to be intermittently overcome as ability allows, if only to further self-interest. we gain nothing from taking a stand on it. and i get you Anthracite, but sometimes we don't want them to walk if we need something.

 

[jeffry7]

Points I haven't seen elsewhere in the thread. Not looking at someone when they are talking to you is considered rude, at least in the US. So it may be that people you don't make eye contact with consider you rude rather then deceptive or shameful.

There is probably some non-verbal stuff going on even with routine transactions such as buying a coffee. For one thing, looking at you is a way to acknowledge your presence. If you don't look at them, you aren't following the normal way of acknowledging their presence, and you aren't paying attention to their non-verbal. It's like you are not listening to them. You are listening, but if you aren't looking at them it is harder to take in the complete message, a good chunk of which is not spoken.

I am still new to ND and so i don't know how to think about it. But I do know I consciously make eye contact when i am talking to people. I make a point of making eye contact with people when i thank them for something, even if that is just handing me my change.

I actually think to myself, "I need to look them in the eye now" and I do.

It makes me wonder if NTs do this automatically without thought or if they have to learn it to. Since it seems to vary by culture, there must be some learning to do.