an eye contact contract?

[Mary Anne]

Realizing you're likely avoiding a nebulous accusation of being dishonest based only on a bizarre social convention. Not much comfort to be gained, but at least avoiding a pointless confrontation.

Why is it “ bizarre.” Much of the animal kingdom relies on social cues such as eye contact. Wolves, bison, cats, dogs, most mammals, and all the rest....it’s evolution to survive.

 

[Judge]

Why is it “ bizarre.” Much of the animal kingdom relies on social cues such as eye contact. Wolves, bison, cats, dogs, most mammals, and all the rest....it’s evolution to survive.

Perspective. I'm in a distinct neurological minority among my own species.

There's a whole lot of traits and behaviors that may be as common as dirt to you or others that seem bizarre and foreign to me. Regardless of whether such species constitutes a mathematical majority or not.

That inherent sense of not fitting in that always lingers. Makes a lot of things appear bizarre to me.

 

[55853]

Perspective. I'm in a distinct neurological minority among my own species.

There's a whole lot that of traits and behaviors that may be as common as dirt to you or others that seem bizarre and foreign to me. Regardless of whether such species constitutes a mathematical majority or not.

That inherent sense of not fitting in that always lingers...regardless of what any social majority says or does.

Eye contact doesn't come naturally to me, but I can at least get some meaning from it. The same cannot be said for this post. Are you intending it to be a riddle? A number of members write this way and I find that to be far more bizarre than any social convention I'm aware of, especially when you criticise "NTs" of not talking straight.

 

[wadorama]

update from the op. man. if you can manage to stomach doing this then totally do it. I hate everything about it except for the results, which are transformational. never had anyone to teach me this stuff, but if you want to hide or blend better then yeah, force yourself to look up at them. they seem to really need it.

 

[Progster]

A number of members write this way and I find that to be far more bizarre than any social convention I'm aware of,

I also struggle with anything that is abstract and not 'plainspeak' and struggle to understand some people's posts - that's probably why I suck at poetry and got a D for English Lit, but I realise that some people write as they think, in a kind of stream of consciousness. If I don't understand something, I can ask. At least here, I can do that without being judged as being stupid or something.

 

[55853]

If I don't understand something, I can ask. At least here, I can do that without being judged as being stupid or something.

I wish I felt the same way.

 

[Mary Anne]

I also struggle with anything that is abstract and not 'plainspeak' and struggle to understand some people's posts - that's probably why I suck at poetry and got a D for English Lit, but I realise that some people write as they think, in a kind of stream of consciousness. If I don't understand something, I can ask. At least here, I can do that without being judged as being stupid or something.

You said something that touched me! I too have always severely struggled with poetry, historic literature, shakespeare, etc. I just never could understand any of it, and felt so shamed and frustrated. I cant read it and I can not hear it spoken either. I also cannot listen to songs and understand lyrics. I need the words written out. I never connected this to aspie trait. Wow. Thank you .

 

[55853]

You said something that touched me! I too have always severely struggled with poetry, historic literature, shakespeare, etc. I just never could understand any of it, and felt so shamed and frustrated. I cant read it and I can not hear it spoken either. I also cannot listen to songs and understand lyrics. I need the words written out. I never connected this to aspie trait. Wow. Thank you .

All of them have always been a problem for me as well. I'm not sure if it's part of autism though, since I know plenty of people without autism who are glad to never need to read a poem again, while some members of this forum evidently think and write that way.

 

[Mary Anne]

I am confounded when I hear rapp or hip hop. People all around can understand what is being said, and I am unable. I need words to be linear and make sense without that poetic jumble. I went out of my way to avoid any classes in my youth that had to dissect literature. Which is one of the reasons I never completed a BA Degree.. all math beyond the basic functions of math (addition, subtraction, multiplication, etc) and meanings in literature completely confound me.

 

[Gracey]

i meant their comfort. i'm still missing the connection between eye contact and honest intention. i have read that the best liars will look you right in the eye while doing so (not that i usually looked up to see).

The best liars would know that direct eye contact may give the game away should the other be paying attention.

There are all manner of other things going on with different parts of the body when someone lies.

Always exceptions to the rule though.


I’m currently looking for work, one particular job/person spec’ insisted being able to give great eye contact to customers essential for the role.

So even big companies depend on its employees being able to offer that sincerity, trustworthy, openness that eye contact gives.
Sells more products, trust the brand and so on.

Some animals perceive direct eye contact as a challenge or threat.

Funny old world isn’t it?

 

[Progster]

I am confounded when I hear rapp or hip hop. People all around can understand what is being said, and I am unable. I need words to be linear and make sense without that poetic jumble. I went out of my way to avoid any classes in my youth that had to dissect literature. Which is one of the reasons I never completed a BA Degree.. all math beyond the basic functions of math (addition, subtraction, multiplication, etc) and meanings in literature completely confound me.

I don't like hip-hop or rap, way too fast plus I can't relate to the culture associated with it. Same with 'talking head' YouTube videos.
I sucked at algebra too, it was a struggle beyond the basics. Geometry is ok, though. This is the reason why I didn't pursue a career in the sciences - most science-based careers need a good grounding in maths.

 

[Judge]

I get the meaning of such things just fine. That a social majority construes any lack of eye contact to be unconditionally projecting deception. - Regardless of whether it's true or not.

However it's the unconditional aspect of this which I find to be both bizarre and illogical. No "riddle" required. Just because I may understand how something works with a social majority doesn't mean I instantly rationalize it to be correct or moral any more than dealing with an angry lynch mob.

 

[Mary Anne]

I get the meaning of such things just fine. That a social majority construes any lack of eye contact to be unconditionally projecting deception. - Regardless of whether it's true or not.

However it's the unconditional aspect of this which I find to be both bizarre and illogical. No "riddle" required. Just because I may understand how something works with a social majority doesn't mean I instantly rationalize it to be correct or moral any more than dealing with an angry lynch mob.

And yes, I consider my own masking of my autistic traits and behaviors to avoid serious social consequences no less "bizarre" as well. A necessary evil, but something from my own perspective I shouldn't be forced into doing as well.

There's no group dynamic you or anyone else can pressure me into accepting how I neurologically process such things. You can disparage my thought process all you want. But you cannot change it either.

No one is “disparaginging your thought process” here! I merely questioned why you chose the descriptive word “ bizarre,” when you are in the acute world wide minority (as to eye contact as a social norm and constant upon which most humans initially and continually communicate).

It’s merely semantics- using the words “odd, bizarre, queer, unusual, “ etc describes something OUTSIDE a norm. What you were describing is actually THE NORM, and only “bizarre” to you. It would have been more accurate to express that you find this society behavior as “bizarre” to you. Then I would have understood what you meant. .

 

[Judge]

What you were describing is actually THE NORM, and only “bizarre” to you.

Of course! Ultimately we can only process social input based on our own Neurological processes and no others. But from MY perspective which I tried to explain, such social conventions are indeed bizarre.

Interesting though you chose to refer to "THE NORM". I know what is customary. I know what is usual and frequent. But what really is "normal"? And how is such a term universally validated?

We can all politically rationalize the value of a group consensus, but does it truly validate how we truly feel and relate to things individually? Probably not.

 

[Mary Anne]

Of course! Ultimately we can only process social input based on our own Neurological processes and no others. But from MY perspective which I tried to explain, such social conventions are indeed bizarre.

Interesting though you chose to refer to "THE NORM". I know what is customary. I know what is usual and frequent. But what really is "normal"? And how is such a term universally validated?

I get that now LOL!
As for what is “Norm” I can say that having lived for nearly 62 years, and never knowing I had a touch of aspergers, and integrating into society to passable extant w/o being outed, I kinda know and observe what is “Normal.” Plus, working in mental health, one is exposed to every kind of diversity, and we are trained to observe. I DO understand that your version of “normal” is quite different than mine, or societial.

 

[Judge]

I get that now LOL!
As for what is “Norm” I can say that having lived for nearly 62 years, and never knowing I had a touch of aspergers, and integrating into society to passable extant w/o being outed, I kinda know and observe what is “Normal.” Plus, working in mental health, one is exposed to every kind of diversity, and we are trained to observe. I DO understand that your version of “normal” is quite different than mine, or societial.

Good point. I can only imagine the variety of traits and behaviors you've seen professionally. Ultimately we're all stuck with our own points of view, whether they are deemed unique or not.

Though still I feel a bit let down that all this time realizing so much of my social stress involved the energy it took for me to mask my traits and behaviors to avoid serious social conflicts. Where even in the most positive instances I still would often come home with a stress headache.

 

[55853]

I get the meaning of such things just fine. That a social majority construes any lack of eye contact to be unconditionally projecting deception. - Regardless of whether it's true or not.

However it's the unconditional aspect of this which I find to be both bizarre and illogical. No "riddle" required. Just because I may understand how something works with a social majority doesn't mean I instantly rationalize it to be correct or moral any more than dealing with an angry lynch mob.

Is my understanding correct - in your experience, lack of eye contact has always been read as dishonesty, and you consider that bizarre? Sorry if I'm wrong, I find your posts to be difficult to read.

That's never been my experience. My lack of eye contact has only ever been described as shy (or something similar to shy), never dishonest or deceptive. Would that be because of cultural differences, more nonverbal signals, something else, or some combination of these?

I now try to look people in the eyes to get nonverbal communication from them, now I know nonverbal communication exists. Can you rationalise that, or is that also bizarre to you?

 

[Judge]

That's never been my experience. My lack of eye contact has only ever been described as shy (or something similar to shy), never dishonest or deceptive. Would that be because of cultural differences, more nonverbal signals, something else, or some combination of these?

Now you will understand what I meant by "perspective". You see, I was raised in a career military household with numerous relatives in federal law enforcement. Where all the adults in my immediate orbit placed tremendous emphasis on such social dynamics. Far beyond that of you "civilians".

Where clarity and fidelity through body language is steeped in their "culture". Of course from their point of view, whatever undesirable traits and behaviors I had could be transformed through "adapting and overcoming" them all. Not because I agreed with them, but because I was ordered to do so.

THAT was how I became able to look people in the eye by the time I was an adolescent. Though it still remains somewhat uncomfortable for me in doing as such. Small wonder I became adept at masking my traits and behaviors in general. Because I perceived those "consequences" at a very early- and impressionable age given my home environment.

Yet all the time no one including myself ever gave a thought to autism. But then I'm not even sure it would have mattered to my family who lived in a world of "Can't Means Won't". Bizarre, huh?

 

[Mary Anne]

Of course! Ultimately we can only process social input based on our own Neurological processes and no others. But from MY perspective which I tried to explain, such social conventions are indeed bizarre.



/QUOTE]

Now you will understand what I meant by "perspective". You see, I was raised in a career military household with numerous relatives in federal law enforcement. Where all the adults in my immediate orbit placed tremendous emphasis on such social dynamics. Far beyond that of you "civilians".

Where clarity and fidelity through body language is steeped in their "culture". Of course from their point of view, whatever undesirable traits and behaviors I had could be transformed through "adapting and overcoming" them all. Not because I agreed with them, but because I was ordered to do so.

THAT was how I became able to look people in the eye by the time I was an adolescent. Though it still remains somewhat uncomfortable for me in doing as such. Small wonder I became adept at masking my traits and behaviors in general. Because I perceived those "consequences" at a very early- and impressionable age given my home environment.

Yet all the time no one including myself ever gave a thought to autism. But then I'm not even sure it would have mattered to my family who lived in a world of "Can't Means Won't". Bizarre, huh?

know military well, having had 2 long term relationships with career military men,A brother who spent a few decades in military and Nat”l Guard, and family members who are cops. It actually is an easier way to navigate life though harsh, and sometimes cruel.

 

[Mary Anne]

Is my understanding correct - in your experience, lack of eye contact has always been read as dishonesty, and you consider that bizarre? Sorry if I'm wrong, I find your posts to be difficult to read.

That's never been my experience. My lack of eye contact has only ever been described as shy (or something similar to shy), never dishonest or deceptive. Would that be because of cultural differences, more nonverbal signals, something else, or some combination of these?

I now try to look people in the eyes to get nonverbal communication from them, now I know nonverbal communication exists. Can you rationalise that, or is that also bizarre to you?

I said that it is way of society, salesmanship, customer service, law enforcement, and just in general can mean a whole lot of misleading things. Lack or eye contact means many things to many people, but a boss at a job would not approve, nor would a police officer, or a high school principle. If you are not of color, or have never been in trouble with the law, or been admonished at your job for not being “customer friendly, then you would naturally not understand what I mean. Being in the ND spectrum also means you might have been sheltered away, and never had to deal with any of it.

I have never had this conversation with people on the autism spectrum before, and did not know just how much of an issue eye contact was until joining these forums and learning.

I did NOT say that I judge or label people like that. One cannot change society though.