Thoughts on beliefs

[Nitro]

I will be the first to put my belief out there.
I consider myself an agnostic theist. My belief structure is also scientific in nature,but with a common denominator of there being too much order to the living world for it to have been a random petri dish happenstance that formed life as we know it.

My thought are that any belief or non-belief system a person chooses is fine by me and if that is what they cling to to make sense of it all,then so be it.

It is very important to consider that all forms of belief are what comes from inside a person,and not subject to what others think it should be for the next individual

 

[Sylar]

I consider myself a non-practising Christian. I fully believe there is a God and the stories of Jesus are true, at least in some form, but I can't commit to living in the way they teach. Part of it is because weakness to temptation, the other is that I still have too many questions for it to make complete sense.

I'm sure I mentioned this story here in the past, but I was severely depressed for a long time, regularly contemplating suicide and a few times taking steps to attempt it. After a few years of that I started getting a nagging feeling to get into religion and one day a t-shirt with an image of Jesus appeared in my washing basket and I took it as a sign. I started reading the bible and praying and started to feel a lot better in a short period of time.

I want to be a catholic who lives by the rules and goes to church but I get put off at the briefest glimps of inconvenience and I just want the strength to stick with it but have no idea how people do it.

To bring this post to the end, I want to say that I consider any faith and religion as valid, even if I don't believe in it myself. I don't agree with Scientology but it annoys me when people make fun of them because those people believe in it and invest in that faith and that is a quality I wish for and admire. It takes strength to stand by something when people constantly attack or make fun of it.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

For me these things are more 'ideas' which is part of how a social group/tribe/nation state forms.

Very useful ideas and helpful to many. But a human convention - a bit like 'Tuesday'

The difficulty is that ,as emotional beings, when your 'idea' is contradicted it can be seen as a personal attack. Then the trouble starts. (Think of everybody arguing in the old testament and Jesus saying - this hold up against everything else - love your neighbour as yourself. or - The sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath. I take this to be meaning that people can get lost in the rules (the ideas and beliefs and forget what they are there for. Ideas useful to help organise society and treat everyone better. Rules are made for man....)

If you see it all as differing ideas, it becomes hard for a 'Tuesday' to argue with a 'Wednesday'

In the beginning was the word, and the word was God. All things were made by him..

The idea of attaching a 'sound' to represent a 'thing' I could say was the actual creation. Before that, there wasn't any 'thing' (the world was null and void)

Then concepts developed and ideas of better ways to treat each other. 'It's nice to be nice' more or less sums it all up.

Anyway sidetracked. If I go over this again it will come out better But I'm not going to!

I agree with what you're saying Sylar, although I think Scientology may be a bad example. Although there are many bad examples within religion. (Scientology not classed as a religion everywhere)

 

[Sylar]

I agree with what you're saying Sylar, although I think Scientology may be a bad example. Although there are many bad examples within religion. (Scientology not classed as a religion everywhere)

I didn't know Scientology isn't classed as a religion everywhere, thanks for the info. As for it being a bad example, probably. I picked it because I thought it was one of the more extreme examples to go with my point that being able to have faith in something, no matter how crazy it sounds, is something to be respected.

I think Scientology is more like a cult that has a history of bullying and exploitation with both its own members and critics. I try to separate the feelings, I can not respect the organisation while still respecting the people who believe in it, as long as they're not hurting anyone that is.

 

[yotimbo]

I will be the first to put my belief out there.
I consider myself an agnostic theist. My belief structure is also scientific in nature,but with a common denominator of there being too much order to the living world for it to have been a random petri dish happenstance that formed life as we know it.

My thought are that any belief or non-belief system a person chooses is fine by me and if that is what they cling to to make sense of it all,then so be it.

It is very important to consider that all forms of belief are what comes from inside a person,and not subject to what others think it should be for the next individual

What makes you think that life as we know it was a random happening? It began when a single celled organism learnt to replicate itself and all life evolved and progressed from that it is the most beautiful and magnificent steady and methodical gradual ramp of life .nothing happened by chance.

 

[Nitro]

What makes you think that life as we know it was a random happening? It began when a single celled organism learnt to replicate itself and all life evolved and progressed from that it is the most beautiful and magnificent steady and methodical gradual ramp of life .nothing happened by chance.

My point being that there is too much order across the board for it to have been random. I believe in evolution to some point,but won't dismiss something having ultimate control over it.
I believe in a higher power,I'm just not comfortable giving it a name or any features in case it doesn't like how I interpreted it in my own mind.

 

[yotimbo]

My point being that there is too much order across the board for it to have been random. I believe in evolution to some point,but won't dismiss something having ultimate control over it.
I believe in a higher power,I'm just not comfortable giving it a name or any features in case it doesn't like how I interpreted it in my own mind.

Yes your right there. It isnt random its natural selection and evolution is now something that only deniers of science will dispute. The arch bishop of canterbury is a staunch acceptor of evolution. Does it make you feel more comfortable with yourself to believe in the supernatural? For some people i speak to this is the main reason they give me for their belief, which i think is an understandable and noble reason and as long as it isnt preached to children , its fine by me.

 

[abby normal]

I was an agnostic until I had a series of psychic incidents happen to me which convinced me that there is something much greater than this mundane reality going on.

 

[MrSpock]

I'm an atheist. I can't know for sure that there are no gods, however if they're trying to talk to me they're even less straightforward than NT's I'm romantically interested in. If there are gods, then they obviously don't want to tell me what the purpose of life is or what the right thing to do is. If there are gods, they must want me to figure this stuff out for myself. Believing in them cannot clarify anything, it can only complicate things and life is complicated enough already. I must take responsibility for my own actions rather than attributing them to a higher power.

Any religious texts I've read have (necessarily) left the important things for me to figure out on my own. Life is much too complicated for there to be an all-encompassing owner's manual, nobody can prepare a person for everything in their lives such that they don't have to think for themselves in order to do what is right. Any attempt to learn a system that will figure this out for you is a waste of time, what is necessary for living a good life is to figure out how to figure this out for yourself.

You may have access to someone who claims to understand some religious text well, however they will not know your life as you do, they will not understand your situation as you do. Any intelligent and empathetic person who takes the time and trouble to make an honest effort at living a good life will be better able to reliably decide for themselves what is right than someone else is able to make their decisions for them.

One can get good ideas from other people, and from books, I recommend this. Nobody can write a book that will tell you about the exact situation you will find yourself in next Wednesday, nor can they write a book that will tell you what, exactly, you should do in that situation. Your judgement will always be called upon if you're to make the right choice... if your judgement is that you should do what someone else tells you to do, you have decided to avoid moral responsibility. At best you will be a tool of a decent person, at worst you will be a tool of an evil person.

It's possible that some people are not bright enough to live a moral life without instruction. Perhaps for those people religion is actually a good thing. Rather like a legal system. Following the laws of your country will not make you a good person, and breaking them will not necessarily make you a bad person. Following the laws will force a really bad person to be less obviously and directly bad. Some real assholes operate well within the system and use it to their benefit. If you blindly follow along you are enabling those assholes.

...I consider any faith and religion as valid, even if I don't believe in it myself. I don't agree with Scientology but it annoys me when people make fun of them because those people believe in it and invest in that faith and that is a quality I wish for and admire. It takes strength to stand by something when people constantly attack or make fun of it.

This makes me wonder what you think 'valid' means, and what believing in something means to you. I wonder if you have considered that many people attack and make fun of neonazis. Do you admire the strength it takes to continue to be a neonazi? When peoples of two religions go to war with each other do you admire and respect the decisions of the people on both sides to kill the people on the other sides? Seems kinda silly to me. Doesn't at least one side have to be wrong? Perhaps you don't want to think about this. One of the 'benefits' of religion is that it makes the hard work of thinking about what is right and wrong go away, someone else can decide that for you, it's much easier.

 

[yotimbo]

I was an agnostic until I had a series of psychic incidents happen to me which convinced me that there is something much greater than this mundane reality going on.

Did you consider all other possibilities before concluding that it must be a higher force at work.

 

[Sylar]

This makes me wonder what you think 'valid' means, and what believing in something means to you.

Valid was the wrong choice of word, but I thought I cleared it up in the rest of my post and the one after by explaining that I think it should be respected even if you don't agree with it.

I wonder if you have considered that many people attack and make fun of neonazis. Do you admire the strength it takes to continue to be a neonazi?

While both involve holding certain beliefs and attitudes, being a neonazi is a far cry from being religious.

When peoples of two religions go to war with each other do you admire and respect the decisions of the people on both sides to kill the people on the other sides? Seems kinda silly to me. Doesn't at least one side have to be wrong?

No I don't admire and respect that because that is taking something and twisting it to justify themselves. ISIS may claim they are fighting for Islam, but Muslims are very much against them and don't consider the group to be living by the teachings of the Qur'an. Just like both sides in the Isreal and Palestine conflict are as bad as each other for allowing the violence and death to continue. Having faith in something doesn't remove personal responsibility or stop you from being a terrible person. By saying I respect it, I'm saying I won't make fun of a religion or attack them for it just because I don't like it or agree with it, but an individual can still be judged by their actions and merits.

For example, I don't agree with Jehovah's witnesses denying blood transfusions--especially in the cases of children where they don't get to decide and it can mean life or death--and I find the door to door thing intrusive, but I wouldn't make fun of someone for believing in it. If it's important to them and it's what they believe in then I'll respect that, if they're a decent person then why should it matter to me?

Perhaps you don't want to think about this. One of the 'benefits' of religion is that it makes the hard work of thinking about what is right and wrong go away, someone else can decide that for you, it's much easier.

Perhaps you don't want to be making assumptions about me based on one post. I'm from an atheist family and was one all my life until last year, and as I said I'm still not completely sold on the idea and have questions. Maybe it was another poor choice of wording and I'm actually more along the lines of an agnostic.

 

[Sir Les Patterson]

I am an Atheist. I grew up in a household and community that is very non-religious. I knew of religion as being a private sort of thing that involved chanting/spells/wishes/praying or some such and that people went into places of worship to hang out with others in their belief group

I could not have told you where the nearest churches were or if any of my friends were religious.

By the time I was grown, I had little real knowledge and not much interest. It seemed a rather quaint notion. As I have gotten older I am more interested in it but not to personally pursue.

 

[MrSpock]

No I don't admire and respect that because that is taking something and twisting it to justify themselves.

Since any situation in which we might find ourselves is not specifically covered in any religious text written before the fact, religious teachings can only be applied to the situation by twisting them (however slightly), it takes wisdom and a good conscience to do this in a way that results in a good action. Given that the wisdom and good conscience is there to begin with, what is the point in referring to the religious text at all? An appeal to authority seems the only reason to me, and appeals to authority are not sound arguments.

ISIS may claim they are fighting for Islam, but Muslims are very much against them and don't consider the group to be living by the teachings of the Qur'an.

Leaving aside the possibility that ISIS is in fact a political entity, we might consider that the members of ISIS are themselves Muslim, so you ought correctly to say that some Muslims are very much against them. If religion is to be judged according to the affect it has on the actions of the followers of that religion then this must be applied across the board, not just to particular groups within that religion whose actions you approve of. Any other way of assessment does not lend itself to discussion, as we would all be free to include/exclude any group according to our own personal interpretation of whether or not particular individuals measure up to our personal idea of what the religion 'should be'. The effect of a religious belief system includes the actions of all those who claim it as a guide, however twisted you may think it is... it is always somebody's interpretation. If religion can be twisted in this way to allow people to justify horrible things in the name of it, then that too is a quality of religion.

Having faith in something doesn't remove personal responsibility or stop you from being a terrible person.

Then what is it good for?

 

[Sylar]

Leaving aside the possibility that ISIS is in fact a political entity, we might consider that the members of ISIS are themselves Muslim, so you ought correctly to say that some Muslims are very much against them. If religion is to be judged according to the affect it has on the actions of the followers of that religion then this must be applied across the board, not just to particular groups within that religion whose actions you approve of.

It's not a matter of what I approve of. Muslims around the world have come together and said that these terrorist groups aren't behaving as the religion teaches and that they don't support them or want to be linked to them through the name of their religion. If a large number of Muslims are speaking out then I'm going to side with them and say the terrorists aren't what the religion represents. It would be ignorant to say that because a minority of Muslims are terrorists then all of Islam is bad or worthless.

Then what is it good for?

I don't know. Maybe because it brings them peace, makes them happier, gives them hope or inspires them? You might be better off asking a devoted religious person that question. Why do you seem to think that faith and personal responsibility are mutually exclusive? A religious person can be a good person because they want to be a good person and not just because a book told them to, just as a person can be religious and ignore the rules to carry out violence.

 

[yotimbo]

I'm an atheist. I can't know for sure that there are no gods, however if they're trying to talk to me they're even less straightforward than NT's I'm romantically interested in. If there are gods, then they obviously don't want to tell me what the purpose of life is or what the right thing to do is. If there are gods, they must want me to figure this stuff out for myself. Believing in them cannot clarify anything, it can only complicate things and life is complicated enough already. I must take responsibility for my own actions rather than attributing them to a higher power.

Any religious texts I've read have (necessarily) left the important things for me to figure out on my own. Life is much too complicated for there to be an all-encompassing owner's manual, nobody can prepare a person for everything in their lives such that they don't have to think for themselves in order to do what is right. Any attempt to learn a system that will figure this out for you is a waste of time, what is necessary for living a good life is to figure out how to figure this out for yourself.

You may have access to someone who claims to understand some religious text well, however they will not know your life as you do, they will not understand your situation as you do. Any intelligent and empathetic person who takes the time and trouble to make an honest effort at living a good life will be better able to reliably decide for themselves what is right than someone else is able to make their decisions for them.

One can get good ideas from other people, and from books, I recommend this. Nobody can write a book that will tell you about the exact situation you will find yourself in next Wednesday, nor can they write a book that will tell you what, exactly, you should do in that situation. Your judgement will always be called upon if you're to make the right choice... if your judgement is that you should do what someone else tells you to do, you have decided to avoid moral responsibility. At best you will be a tool of a decent person, at worst you will be a tool of an evil person.

It's possible that some people are not bright enough to live a moral life without instruction. Perhaps for those people religion is actually a good thing. Rather like a legal system. Following the laws of your country will not make you a good person, and breaking them will not necessarily make you a bad person. Following the laws will force a really bad person to be less obviously and directly bad. Some real assholes operate well within the system and use it to their benefit. If you blindly follow along you are enabling those assholes.



This makes me wonder what you think 'valid' means, and what believing in something means to you. I wonder if you have considered that many people attack and make fun of neonazis. Do you admire the strength it takes to continue to be a neonazi? When peoples of two religions go to war with each other do you admire and respect the decisions of the people on both sides to kill the people on the other sides? Seems kinda silly to me. Doesn't at least one side have to be wrong? Perhaps you don't want to think about this. One of the 'benefits' of religion is that it makes the hard work of thinking about what is right and wrong go away, someone else can decide that for you, it's much easier.

Then what is it good for?

Its a toy that they play with Spock, the trouble is they try and make everyone else play with it aswell including children which arguably is child abuse. I would say that ISIS is definitely a political cause because sharia law is just that , a state governed by rules of the Qur'an. I think youve put a good argument together here.

 

[WildCat]

I'm an agnostic theist now but was raised in a largely Christian family, and I came to that on my own terms over the years. Neither side can provide a sufficient explanation for me - atheists use science and logic as their vehicle, assorted religious groups use texts and belief systems as theirs and none of it clicks for me.

I'm not knocking anyone down here, just providing my two cents on it all. If it helps you get through the day or life, whatever it may be, then I say stick to your guns and don't let anyone convince or pressure you otherwise.

 

[xudo]

I have been described as 'militantly atheist'. I would probably agree with that.

For me personally, there is no higher power and we exist thanks to evolution and natural selection.

I mean no offence to anybody when I say this, but I cannot in any way wrap my head around how people can believe in a god/gods. I've tried to understand, but I just cannot fathom it.

 

[Sylar]

I'm an agnostic theist

What is an agnostic theist?

I have been described as 'militantly atheist'. I would probably agree with that.

For me personally, there is no higher power and we exist thanks to evolution and natural selection.

I mean no offence to anybody when I say this, but I cannot in any way wrap my head around how people can believe in a god/gods. I've tried to understand, but I just cannot fathom it.

I wouldn't describe that as 'militantly atheist', just an atheist. To me, militant atheists are the ones who start arguments and want to take things away from other people because they don't believe in it. People like Ricky Gervais where my reaction is "for someone who doesn't believe in something, you dedicate way too much of your time thinking and talking about it." Even as a strong atheist those people were annoying, just as bad as the hardcore bible bumpers who would look for any opportunity to shove it down your throat.

I'm still trying to figure out my own feelings on religion but if it helps you to understand how I believe there could be a God it was all about feelings. As I said I was depressed and suicidal for over 4 years and one day the idea of religion started nagging me out of nowhere and then the Jesus t-shirt appeared in my house. I don't know how that happened but it was enough to say I'll try it out, just to humour the idea. After a few days of reading bits of the bible and attempting to pray, I was feeling a lot better. I was smiling again, feeling more confident and went days without drinking without even thinking about it. Before that I was getting drunk every night just because that seemed to be the only part of the day where time moved.

It was almost certainly a placebo effect but it worked, and if it works then what's the harm? The problem is that I didn't stick with any of it and don't practice any religion and those old feelings creep back every now and then and are growing stronger and more frequent. I want to try and commit to it because the first time felt good and made it feel easy but I have too many doubts and questions about religion and I worry I'm too weak to change my behaviour for the long term. I believe there is a God in some form because the experience was so weird, almost too convenient, but also because it worked for me and helped me. I don't know for sure what happens when we die, and frankly I don't care. I'm alive now and I just want to feel something.

 

[xudo]

I wouldn't describe that as 'militantly atheist', just an atheist. To me, militant atheists are the ones who start arguments and want to take things away from other people because they don't believe in it. People like Ricky Gervais where my reaction is "for someone who doesn't believe in something, you dedicate way too much of your time thinking and talking about it." Even as a strong atheist those people were annoying, just as bad as the hardcore bible bumpers who would look for any opportunity to shove it down your throat.

To be fair, it was someone who was incredibly religious who said that to me. They were handing out leaflets in town and told me I would burn in hell. I tried (and failed) to have a reasoned conversation with them, but alas was branded as 'militantly atheist'. I understand what you mean about Ricky Gervais, but I do agree with a lot of the things he says regarding religion. I think in my mind I am probably more on the 'militant' side, but I also firmly believe that no matter how ridiculous I think something is, everyone should be free to believe whatever they wish to (so long as they aren't hurting anyone).

I also don't really want to get into discussions with people over something like religion, because nine times out of ten, it just ends in raging arguments, so that way I suppose I come across as less on the more 'militant' side. There are however certain...belief systems in existence that I would happily get into a discussion about if I knew anyone involved in one.

 

[Nitro]

I describe myself as an agnostic theist because I believe in a higher power that arranged nature the way it is,but don't want to give it a gender or a form because it may not agree with what I have chosen for it.
More or less,I have my bases covered no matter what was actually in charge of the beginning.
It is up to each individual to be accountable for what they do,and I don't believe in an everafter. I don't feel that there is a mythical being that oversees each of our lives 24/7,just that there was something that set it all in motion with a master plan of how it was going to all work out.

My personal experience with being declared clinically dead has shown me that there isn't much that goes on on the other side other than total darkness and silence,but possibly that clinically dead wasn't the full monty so to speak.I guess I won't really know until I cash my chips in for good.