Theory of Mind

[Elowen]

I think I may have developed theory of mind just a bit later. I was around 8 or 9 years old when I had a realization that my mom wasn't robot-like, but that she had her own thoughts and feelings. The idea that she could cry or feel hurt really affected me one day while I was at school thinking about it. It was the first time I truly understood that she was her own person with emotions I couldn't always see.

There's a common belief that autistic people lack theory of mind, but that idea is outdated. Many of us do understand that others have their own thoughts and feelings. We might just experience or express that understanding differently.

 

[Jonn]

It doesn’t make sense at all for Sally to check the box first. If she sees the ball is not where she left it in the basket, then it makes sense to check the box.

I have not yet run into a mature autistic adult who does not realize that other people have distinct thoughts from themselves.

Profoundly autistic ppl excluded, most would learn via experience, imo.

It seems like more of a developmental hallmark that most people with ASD 1 and 2 grow out of. I wonder if it is one of those leftover criterion that regarded only traits of autistic children.

We do generally have developmental delays, which is part of the diagnosis.
I went through my adolescence many years after what was considered normal, though my history of ritual abuse and the associated dissociative disorder that came with that may have contributed.

But once again, overwhelmingly, social disability is a huge problem for us, and most never fully develop out of it, imo.

At this stage, I maintain the belief in inherent and cognitive empathy involving more nuanced interpersonal interaction.

I don't want to open the can of worms here, so I won't.

 

[Coxhere]

Hi all,

I've been wondering something and wanted to ask everyone their experience.

One of the apparent traits of autism is lacking a theory of mind. I've never been 100% clear on what that is. A popular explanation is the Sally and Ann test, where Sally and Ann are both in a room, there's a basket and a box. Sally places her ball in the basket and then she leaves the room. While she is away Ann takes the ball out of the basket and puts it in the box. The question is: When Sally comes back into the room and wants her ball, where will she look for the ball?

It's obvious to me that she will look where she placed it before she left: the basket. In this scenario, Sally has no explicit knowledge that Ann moved the ball if Ann doesn't tell her.

Additionally, I've read that people lacking theory of mind do not realize that other people have their own thoughts. That's strange to me because I realize that of course they have their own thoughts. I may not 100% understand what they are, or why people do the things they do, but I get that other people have their own interior world and I can usually make pretty good guesses as to what they are thinking.

Anyway, is this a spectrum thing? Because most everything I've read suggests that this is a hallmark of autism. I guess I'm questioning myself.

I wasn't sure what you had in mind when you used the term, "theory of mind." So, I searched and received this definition:

AI Overview
Theory of mind (ToM) refers to the cognitive ability to understand that others have their own thoughts, beliefs, desires, and intentions, which may differ from one's own. It's the capacity to "read minds" and predict or explain behavior based on these mental states. This ability is crucial for navigating social interactions and understanding the world around us.

This definition reminds me of a graduate school professor telling us students: "ASSUME NOTHING! Always ask for clarification to assure that what someone is thinking is what you are assuming that they are thinking." Sounds like some pretty good advice to me.

 

[Coxhere]

Profoundly autistic ppl excluded, most would learn via experience, imo.


We do generally have developmental delays, which is part of the diagnosis.
I went through my adolescence many years after what was considered normal, though my history of ritual abuse and the associated dissociative disorder that came with that may have contributed.

But once again, overwhelmingly, social disability is a huge problem for us, and most never fully develop out of it, imo.

At this stage, I maintain the belief in inherent and cognitive empathy involving more nuanced interpersonal interaction.

I don't want to open the can of worms here, so I won't.

Can memory deficits----not remembering into which container Sally placed the ball----be a part of the characteristics of ASD?

 

[Jonn]

Can memory deficits----not remembering into which container Sally placed the ball----be a part of the characteristics of ASD?

Well, I have always had a poor memory too, but I suspect/believe it wouldn't be a dominant factor in the Sally-Anne test results.
If poor memory/attention were a major factor, one would expect a roughly 50-50 result, I would have thought.

There are other indicators indicating whether or not a child is on the spectrum.
The Sally-Anne test is simply another tool.
The experiment is specifically designed to identify if a child understands that others have a different mindset.

Those other tests would probably identify if a child is on the spectrum, and then test for Theory of Mind.
Apparently, autistic children have a high incidence of failing the test.

When I was younger, (and even at times today), I used to be astounded that ppl couldn't "see" my motivation/mindset.
I thought it was "neon-obvious".
I don't believe it is the same for NTs, generally speaking.

 

[Jonn]

AI Overview
Theory of mind (ToM) refers to the cognitive ability to understand that others have their own thoughts, beliefs, desires, and intentions, which may differ from one's own. It's the capacity to "read minds" and predict or explain behavior based on these mental states. This ability is crucial for navigating social interactions and understanding the world around us.

It is not a stretch to see how autistic males would be in an even worse position in understanding the mindset of females (women/girls of all age groups).
While we have trouble understanding our male peers, we do have the influencing factors, such as hormones, societal expectations, and presumably, male-specific instinctual directives, to help somewhat.

 

[Coxhere]

Well, I have always had a poor memory too, but I suspect/believe it wouldn't be a dominant factor in the Sally-Anne test results.
If poor memory/attention were a major factor, one would expect a roughly 50-50 result, I would have thought.

There are other indicators indicating whether or not a child is on the spectrum.
The Sally-Anne test is simply another tool.
The experiment is specifically designed to identify if a child understands that others have a different mindset.

Those other tests would probably identify if a child is on the spectrum, and then test for Theory of Mind.
Apparently, autistic children have a high incidence of failing the test.

When I was younger, (and even at times today), I used to be astounded that ppl couldn't "see" my motivation/mindset.
I thought it was "neon-obvious".
I don't believe it is the same for NTs, generally speaking.

As a kid, I remember thinking about "mind reading" and about not wanting others to know what I was thinking. I hoped that I was always able to guard my thoughts from other kids. Later, as I started to develop skills in certain areas, I remember thinking that any other, given person, could do what I was able to do. It took a while for me to get over my tendency to minimize my own abilities, skills, and expertise and to realize that some people weren't able to do (and think) in ways like I could. I'd pretty much always thought that I was rather mediocre and even below average in most, human endeavors. I grew up with a sense of shame about everything that had to do with who I was, what I was, how I was, and why I was.

 

[JayCee]

So this have never quite gotten this one straight, Why would anyone,want t remove something,the ball from my location, without requesting to do so First.? So as to not intentionally confuse me ? This would be less than acceptable behaviour to me .
A form of deception, And if ,I were to have to look in her box . It would be an action,equal to me calling her a theif . And if it were not my intention to make her to make her uncomfortable ,why would I even look in her box ? Sorry this is rather over simplified but
when patterns recurr , I watch them. Might be considered being responsible to oneself regarding actions of another person ? Please,what am I missing here ?

 

[JayCee]

As a kid, I remember thinking about "mind reading" and about not wanting others to know what I was thinking. I hoped that I was always able to guard my thoughts from other kids. Later, as I started to develop skills in certain areas, I remember thinking that any other, given person, could do what I was able to do. It took a while for me to get over my tendency to minimize my own abilities, skills, and expertise and to realize that some people weren't able to do (and think) in ways like I could. I'd pretty much always thought that I was rather mediocre and even below average in most, human endeavors. I grew up with a sense of shame about everything that had to do with who I was, what I was, how I was, and why I was.

Can relate to the above post, to a great degree. but had discovered that somethings about me were different than others, and maybe others had not yet developed these skills . But these unusual methods,did not seem to be common amongst everyone. Or even very many people at all? It did help me sort peoples throughout my life

 

[Coxhere]

So this have never quite gotten this one straight, Why would anyone,want t remove something,the ball from my location, without requesting to do so First.? So as to not intentionally confuse me ? This would be less than acceptable behaviour to me .
A form of deception, And if ,I were to have to look in her box . It would be an action,equal to me calling her a theif . And if it were not my intention to make her to make her uncomfortable ,why would I even look in her box ? Sorry this is rather over simplified but
when patterns recurr , I watch them. Might be considered being responsible to oneself regarding actions of another person ? Please,what am I missing here ?

Good questions, JayCee. Some are toxic and want to intentionally confuse you. Another couple of questions could be this: Why put the ball in a container at all? Why not take the ball with you? Forget the basket and the box!