Theory of Mind

[Masked Man]

Hi all,

I've been wondering something and wanted to ask everyone their experience.

One of the apparent traits of autism is lacking a theory of mind. I've never been 100% clear on what that is. A popular explanation is the Sally and Ann test, where Sally and Ann are both in a room, there's a basket and a box. Sally places her ball in the basket and then she leaves the room. While she is away Ann takes the ball out of the basket and puts it in the box. The question is: When Sally comes back into the room and wants her ball, where will she look for the ball?

It's obvious to me that she will look where she placed it before she left: the basket. In this scenario, Sally has no explicit knowledge that Ann moved the ball if Ann doesn't tell her.

Additionally, I've read that people lacking theory of mind do not realize that other people have their own thoughts. That's strange to me because I realize that of course they have their own thoughts. I may not 100% understand what they are, or why people do the things they do, but I get that other people have their own interior world and I can usually make pretty good guesses as to what they are thinking.

Anyway, is this a spectrum thing? Because most everything I've read suggests that this is a hallmark of autism. I guess I'm questioning myself.

 

[Metalhead]

Hi all,

I've been wondering something and wanted to ask everyone their experience.

One of the apparent traits of autism is lacking a theory of mind. I've never been 100% clear on what that is. A popular explanation is the Sally and Ann test, where Sally and Ann are both in a room, there's a basket and a box. Sally places her ball in the basket and then she leaves the room. While she is away Ann takes the ball out of the basket and puts it in the box. The question is: When Sally comes back into the room and wants her ball, where will she look for the ball?

It's obvious to me that she will look where she placed it before she left: the basket. In this scenario, Sally has no explicit knowledge that Ann moved the ball if Ann doesn't tell her.

Additionally, I've read that people lacking theory of mind do not realize that other people have their own thoughts. That's strange to me because I realize that of course they have their own thoughts. I may not 100% understand what they are, or why people do the things they do, but I get that other people have their own interior world and I can usually make pretty good guesses as to what they are thinking.

Anyway, is this a spectrum thing? Because most everything I've read suggests that this is a hallmark of autism. I guess I'm questioning myself.

I think onions are the most vile vegetable on the face of the planet and I cannot possibly understand how anybody can love them.

Then again, black licorice is my favorite candy and brussels sprouts is my favorite veggie. Where is the universal love for those two things? Heretics, the whole lot of you!

I think this is more than just an autism trait, and more of a general human trait that most people have to some degree.

 

[Rodafina]

Sally places her ball in the basket and then she leaves the room. While she is away Ann takes the ball out of the basket and puts it in the box. The question is: When Sally comes back into the room and wants her ball, where will she look for the ball?

It doesn’t make sense at all for Sally to check the box first. If she sees the ball is not where she left it in the basket, then it makes sense to check the box.

I have not yet run into a mature autistic adult who does not realize that other people have distinct thoughts from themselves. It seems like more of a developmental hallmark that most people with ASD 1 and 2 grow out of. I wonder if it is one of those leftover criterion that regarded only traits of autistic children.

 

[Masked Man]

I have not yet run into a mature autistic adult who does not realize that other people have distinct thoughts from themselves. It seems like more of a developmental hallmark that most people with ASD 1 and 2 grow out of. I wonder if it is one of those leftover criterion that regarded only traits of autistic children.

Maybe that's it. Because I haven't either but I keep reading and hearing (even in places like my own place of work) about the theory of mind thing.

 

[RemyZee]

It doesn’t make sense at all for Sally to check the box first. If she sees the ball is not where she left it in the basket, then it makes sense to check the box.

I have not yet run into a mature autistic adult who does not realize that other people have distinct thoughts from themselves. It seems like more of a developmental hallmark that most people with ASD 1 and 2 grow out of. I wonder if it is one of those leftover criterion that regarded only traits of autistic children.

I've been thinking a lot about theory of mind here recently, partly because of my own experience: I would describe it as having challenges with deciphering how other people are reacting to me and to each other, such that it can be really difficult to have any idea how people will respond, what their intentions are, what they are going through, or their motivations, when they are uncomfortable, how people are interpreting what I am doing. It can have tough reverberations because I misjudge and at times make even serious social misjudgements without noticing that is what is happening. I definitely understand other people have their own thoughts and experiences, it's just that those things can be inaccessible to autistics unless it is very very clear or when people openly tell you what they are going through . And human communication is a lot of things, but it is rarely clear, so it's a bunch of guesswork unless a person verbalizes it,, and apparently I have a bit of a broken sense of intuition. But it is interesting because I definitely have a certain experience of theory of mind, and when I read this story, it is pretty much baffling to me. I just don't understand it, what they are doing, or where things are or what is happening or how the people or objects relate to each other.

 

[Outdated]

One of the apparent traits of autism is lacking a theory of mind. I've never been 100% clear on what that is.

I don't understand the naming, that just doesn't make sense to me.

What I think it relates to is simple empathy and understanding each individual enough to be able to guess their wants and desires, and therefore predict their actions and behaviours, rather than just expecting the whole flock of sheeps to all be the same.

My Grade 6 teacher told me I was becoming an intellectual bully and that on that level no other kid had a hope of competing with me. To teach me better she arranged for me to spend 2 days a week in the special class for disabled children. I actually really enjoyed it and that was only 2 days a week that I wouldn't wag school simply because in there no one picked on me. That lasted 2 years. It did teach me a few things about people.

Once I was out of school and working I had a very active social life and got to know all sorts of people from all walks of life, I'll talk to anyone most of the time. That also taught me a lot about different people and different ways of living and different ways of understanding people and communicating with people.

It's really important to step out of your own cultural or socio-economic group and see how other people live. When a society talks about "tolerance" of others they've completely missed the point. To be able to understand others requires acceptance and familiarity.

 

[lunarious]

I think Theory of Mind means like they say Psycho-Somatic. That things are Physical and Visual. (edit)
Psycho-Somatic means Psyche and Body exist interchangable.

We can see Light, from the stars in the universe. Behind the stars it's dark. There's known universe (light) and unknown universe (dark). Aside from things as infra-red and heat, that we "see" through technology.

PS: There has been talk about computers that can read our mind.

 

[Alexej]

Theory of Mind is often linked in with the idea of "mirror neurones".
The idea here is that if I see you do something that I would do, I feel what I feel when I do it as I see you do it.

(Sorry if that is not very clear).

The theory of Mind is a theory and it is being questioned in the literature as to whether it is a valid theory.

 

[Angular Chap]

Just after my diagnosis, I attended a webinar at the same clinic that handled my diagnosis and they talked about the psychology trifecta of theories,

Theory of Mind.
Central Coherence.
Executive Functions.

The Sally-Anne problem was one of the slides, apparently most autistic children will choose the box (or the white box, or Anne’s box in this case).

The theory is that autistic kids develop theory of mind differently and the logic behind their choice can be explained by the Sally-Anne problem.

The kid who is not autistic follows the “where was the last place she had it?” line of thinking and chooses the basket (or the black box, or Sally’s box in this case).

The autistic kid sees themselves as part of the scenario, sees themselves as having inside information that the ball has been moved and chooses the box (or the white box, or Anne’s box in this case).

But autistic adults have better developed logic and so will choose the “where was the last place she had it?” line of thinking and choose the basket (or the black box, or Sally’s box in this case).

This was the best general overview I found on this:

Understanding autism: Theory of mind and the Sally-Anne test

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Hi all,

I've been wondering something and wanted to ask everyone their experience.

One of the apparent traits of autism is lacking a theory of mind. I've never been 100% clear on what that is. A popular explanation is the Sally and Ann test, where Sally and Ann are both in a room, there's a basket and a box. Sally places her ball in the basket and then she leaves the room. While she is away Ann takes the ball out of the basket and puts it in the box. The question is: When Sally comes back into the room and wants her ball, where will she look for the ball?

It's obvious to me that she will look where she placed it before she left: the basket. In this scenario, Sally has no explicit knowledge that Ann moved the ball if Ann doesn't tell her.

Additionally, I've read that people lacking theory of mind do not realize that other people have their own thoughts. That's strange to me because I realize that of course they have their own thoughts. I may not 100% understand what they are, or why people do the things they do, but I get that other people have their own interior world and I can usually make pretty good guesses as to what they are thinking.

Anyway, is this a spectrum thing? Because most everything I've read suggests that this is a hallmark of autism. I guess I'm questioning myself.

Cognitive empathy is often considered similar to theory of mind. Theory of mind is sometimes referred to as cognitive empathy, which is the ability to understand how others think or feel by making inferences about their expressions, tone of voice, and body language.

Cognitive empathy is also defined as the ability to know how other people think or feel by making inferences about their facial expressions, tone of voice, gesture, and body language.

Within the context of autism, we often speak of empathy, which can then be separated into different subtypes. Autistic individuals often get accused of "not having empathy", which is not accurate. We are often quite strong in emotional empathy, the ability to share emotions with others, cry with music or a sad scene in a movie, laugh during a comedy show, etc. What IS often lacking is cognitive empathy, sometimes referred to as Theory of Mind, but I find the slang term "mind blindness" more descriptive and apt.

Examples of this might be: (1) when you are talking to someone but are unable to accurately assess intent or deception...without judgment, suspicion, or skepticism when one should, or (2) in my case, having a wife of 40 years and being completely blind to her thought processes, her intentions, her strategy, at any given time...to the point where I realized I will never, ever know her. She is a complete mystery to me. It forces me to ask a LOT of clarifying questions during routine social interactions...an advantage because we almost never have misunderstandings and arguments...a disadvantage because it can mess with my head a bit being in the dark most of the time, and the fact my verbal skills are not as good as I would like them to be. What is in my head and what comes out of my mouth are not articulated well.

 

[Masked Man]

The autistic kid sees themselves as part of the scenario, sees themselves as having inside information that the ball has been moved and chooses the box (or the white box, or Anne’s box in this case).

But autistic adults have better developed logic and so will choose the “where was the last place she had it?” line of thinking and choose the basket (or the black box, or Sally’s box in this case).

Ah there it is. I bolded the part - I think I get it now. The autistic child sees him/herself as part of the audience and cannot put themselves in the minds of the players.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I might also add that a contributing factor with this whole "Theory of Mind"/cognitive empathy/mind-blindness situation is that, because our brains, at the micro-anatomical level are often quite different from the so-called neurotypical brain. In other words, functionally, it is different in many ways. We often say things like, "We are using different operating systems"...Mac OS vs Microsoft, for example. Both systems can be similar in terms of the end results, but the operating processes to get from "point A to point B" may be quite different...but in some cases, neither are compatible with each other.

This is a consideration when we start talking about cognitive empathy because in my personal experience, working with people for a living and having a wife of 40 years...THEY do not understand me. So, one has to ask, "Are THEY (neurotypicals) suffering from a lack of Theory of Mind/cognitive empathy/mind-blindness when it comes to social interactions with autistics?" I would say, YES! 100% My wife is often confused and gets things wrong about why I say and do the things that I do...almost daily...last night, in fact.

It is easy to point to the autism spectrum and stick a "disorder" on the end of it, ASD, but in this case, neurotypicals are quite "mind-blind" to how we process thoughts and our intents behind what we say and do. Different operating systems that struggle to communicate with each other.

 

[Jonn]

The new IOE study suggests an alternative view: that children with ASD do have theory of mind and can succeed at the Sally –Anne test, despite their language, attention and memory difficulties, but researchers’ interpretations of their responses and behaviour have overlooked their ability.

Then, where do our social disabilities come from?
Purely from:

language difficulties and deficits in attention, memory and inhibition.

I understand cognitive empathy and use it myself, but that wasn't the case when I didn't have cognitive empathy. <sic>

Some argue that in fact children with ASD do have theory of mind, but cannot successfully complete the Sally-Anne test because of language difficulties and deficits in attention, memory and inhibition.

Say what?

So, if some believe that, then what is the point of the Sally-Anne test?
Rather than be a test of Theory of Mind, shouldn't it be a test of:

language difficulties and deficits in attention, memory and inhibition.

It is late.
Perhaps my mind isn't working properly.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Then, where do our social disabilities come from?
Purely from:


I understand cognitive empathy and use it myself, but that wasn't the case when I didn't have cognitive empathy. <sic>


Say what?

So, if some believe that, then what is the point of the Sally-Anne test?
Rather than be a test of Theory of Mind, shouldn't it be a test of:


It is late.
Perhaps my mind isn't working properly.

Another consideration: Neurodevelopment, maturity, and life experience.

Many of these studies are not performed on mature adults, but rather young children. A young child sees his/her world quite differently than an adult.

In other words, when reading studies like this, context is important. Results from pediatric autism studies may not translate to adult autism and vice-versa.

 

[Mary Terry]

I've known plenty of NTs who lack theory of mind and cognitive empathy for other people and animals.