Someone special has a message for you all… ;)

[Luca]

I love those pics!

He's a handsome boy!

How did you get into dog training anyway? I've always been curious.

Thank you, he is handsome!

I have loved dogs and have been fascinated by them as long as I can remember. My adoptive parents have always had dogs and I figured out along the way that I’m good at training them. So it became a special interest!

 

[Callistemon]

The last information I had on Arabian horses was about 100 years out of date. Didn't know they'd started doing the breathing-problems-for-dished-faces with them too. Breathing problems defeats the purpose of Arabian horses anyway because they USED to be fantastic long-distance endurance mounts but hey, snobs with their money gotta mess up another perfectly good thing & muddle that much more genetic variation passed down through the ages.
Sure would be nice if deliberately creating eldritch abominations wasn't part of 21st-century livestock breeding for show grade stock. Those horses looked good for centuries back when it was just the desert nomads raising them.

Pointer dogs need good noses--they can actually smell birds. I hope they are left capable of smelling the birds, too--Luca at least makes a great deal of sense talking about how to raise animals. Wish everyone was as knowledgeable.

Don't get me started!

My own Arabian mare who died in 2014 aged 32 was from a Polish/Crabbet endurance breeder - the Polish National Stud in particular aimed to preserve the desert type and the Arabian as an athlete and performance horse.

Her face was typical of desert-type Arabians:

She was 27 in that photo. This is one of her at age 5 when she'd just set a club record for a 25 km ride (~16 miles) through hilly terrain, which she did in 56 minutes and recovered to under starting heart rate within 30 minutes of crossing the finish line, getting first place plus fittest horse overall - carrying me, and I'm not a light or small person.

Obviously we trained, but this was a performance horse, not a show poodle. And compare that to the show lines:

These horses are developing breathing and chewing problems - overshot "elk" jaws are common. It should not be allowed to breed animals with exaggerated traits that are deleterious to their health.

Another:

Look at that horrible overbent face. This is what humans do to animals - turn them into fashion accessories and status symbols. Needless to say, horses like this don't have the same level of athletic performance in endurance rides as the traditional desert lines. Also their backs are too rigid and table-top to function properly but it's the fashion. At least this one has a good chest. Many of these are "line bred" (crossing brothers and sisters, daughters and fathers etc) to get more extreme traits like this - which also reduces their gene pool and makes them purposely inbred. Don't get me started...

If I bought an Arabian horse today, only from an endurance breeder - not a show breeder. Those are the last places that preserve the original working horse - which to me is far more beautiful than these terrible exaggerated effigies, as well. Maybe you have to know something about anatomy, physiology and animal welfare to understand where the problem is here - but if you do, oh boy.

 

[Luca]

Don't get me started!

My own Arabian mare who died in 2014 aged 32 was from a Polish/Crabbet endurance breeder - the Polish National Stud in particular aimed to preserve the desert type and the Arabian as an athlete and performance horse.

Her face was typical of desert-type Arabians:

She was 27 in that photo. This is one of her at age 5 when she'd just set a club record for a 25 km ride (~16 miles) through hilly terrain, which she did in 56 minutes and recovered to under starting heart rate within 30 minutes of crossing the finish line, getting first place plus fittest horse overall - carrying me, and I'm not a light or small person.

Obviously we trained, but this was a performance horse, not a show poodle. And compare that to the show lines:

These horses are developing breathing and chewing problems - overshot "elk" jaws are common. It should not be allowed to breed animals with exaggerated traits that are deleterious to their health.

Another:

Look at that horrible overbent face. This is what humans do to animals - turn them into fashion accessories and status symbols. Needless to say, horses like this don't have the same level of athletic performance in endurance rides as the traditional desert lines. Also their backs are too rigid and table-top to function properly but it's the fashion. At least this one has a good chest. Many of these are "line bred" (crossing brothers and sisters, daughters and fathers etc) to get more extreme traits like this - which also reduces their gene pool and makes them purposely inbred. Don't get me started...

If I bought an Arabian horse today, only from an endurance breeder - not a show breeder. Those are the last places that preserve the original working horse - which to me is far more beautiful than these terrible exaggerated effigies, as well. Maybe you have to know something about anatomy, physiology and animal welfare to understand where the problem is here - but if you do, oh boy.

Yikes. That’s what’s happening here with (exclusively American) show line German Shepherds

I completely agree with you and I have a lot to rant about on this topic as well, as it is affecting my livelihood and the way I’m seen in the public eye, not to mention screwing up tons of innocent animals

Most of my dogs are a combination of show lines and working/utility lines. There are a lot of show breeders who are still dedicated to preserving the original breed standards, but then there’s the French Bulldogs, GSDs, etc… ugh.
I’ve complained a lot about toxic people in the dog community, and although those types of breeders are fortunately in the relative minority, they’re giving the rest of us a bad name and causing unnecessary categorical demonization.

For me, even though I do compete in traditional dog shows too, what’s WAY more important to me than how a dog looks is whether or not they retain all their natural instincts (as hunting, herding, working dogs etc) and if they have a solid temperament and are free from genetic health issues (degenerative myelopathy killed one of my rescue dogs, who was rescued from a backyard breeder It’s important to note the difference between licensed breeders, and backyard breeders and puppy mills. People are missing the fact that there is a BIG difference!)
My dogs are working dogs first, show dogs second. You always want appearance to be secondary to utilitarianism.

Nothing makes me happier than seeing dogs do what they were originally meant to do, whether it’s pointing, retrieving, herding sheep or cattle, rescuing people, guarding livestock, even being a faithful companion… as someone who has spent literally most of my life researching the science of dogs, I think preserving their history and instinctual behavior is incredibly important.

Same goes for horses… like dogs, they are working animals, and they are meant to bond closely with their people. Preserving the original function and original standards of any breed of domestic animal is far more important than making them more aesthetically pleasing. Which, more often than not, makes them less aesthetically pleasing, less functional, and less healthy.

Nothing should be bred just for looks, and you see the same toxicity with humans, with the rise of social media and “influencers” and pro-eating disorder and extreme dieting content.
Looks are not as important as function!!!

 

[Callistemon]

Completely agree with your post, @crewlucaa_ - one caveat though. You're a person who's into performance breeds, and what you say applies to performance breed breeders who share your values. It does not apply to every performance horse breeder sadly (speaking for the horse world), although performance horses tend to fare better genetically for fitness and purpose than show horses bred by show strain breeders, which in the US and Australia have hijacked the general breed standard of the Arabian horse.

And then there's that some dog breeds with terrible issues because already too exaggerated were actually bred by official ridgy-didg breeders - here in Australia, for instance, the official German Shepherd breeders were significantly responsible for the exaggerated breed standard that produced a tendency to back problems and hip dysplasia (although the backyard ones may be equally or more guilty of it). And then there's the Dachshund and its propensity to slipped disks, because no animal should have such a disproportionately long back. And those dog breeds with squished noses. At some point people have to agree that it was never OK to breed animals with overlong backs or squished noses, but someone somewhere put it in the "standard"...

But yeah, I agree totally with what you're saying about functionality and performance and good health, over fashionable appearance. Just the US and Australian Arabian Horse Breeding Associations are the official ridgy-didg breeders that wrecked that breed, which is now only preserved by endurance line breeders whose horses would never win or place in a contemporary "breed standard" show...

 

[Luca]

Completely agree with your post, @crewlucaa_ - one caveat though. You're a person who's into performance breeds, and what you say applies to performance breed breeders who share your values. It does not apply to every performance horse breeder sadly (speaking for the horse world), although performance horses tend to fare better genetically for fitness and purpose than show horses bred by show strain breeders, which in the US and Australia have hijacked the general breed standard of the Arabian horse.

And then there's that some dog breeds with terrible issues because already too exaggerated were actually bred by official ridgy-didg breeders - here in Australia, for instance, the official German Shepherd breeders were significantly responsible for the exaggerated breed standard that produced a tendency to back problems and hip dysplasia (although the backyard ones may be equally or more guilty of it). And then there's the Dachshund and its propensity to slipped disks, because no animal should have such a disproportionately long back. And those dog breeds with squished noses. At some point people have to agree that it was never OK to breed animals with overlong backs or squished noses, but someone somewhere put it in the "standard"...

But yeah, I agree totally with what you're saying about functionality and performance and good health, over fashionable appearance. Just the US and Australian Arabian Horse Breeding Associations are the official ridgy-didg breeders that wrecked that breed, which is now only preserved by endurance line breeders whose horses would never win or place in a contemporary "breed standard" show...

Yes, I should’ve specified that official breeders are the ones responsible for the German Shepherd issue here too. They are not all coming from puppy mills. Sorry if that wasn’t clear!
I would probably not get a GSD unless I imported one from Europe. Not that I really have any interest in ever having another one lol but that’s another story

I mentioned brachycephalic breeds yesterday too. They should not look like that!
Look up pictures of Boxer dogs (and German Shepherds, for that matter, with the back and hip issues that are so rampant now) from the turn of the century, for example. Very different…

I wasn’t implying that every breeder is totally innocent and responsible and has the best interest of their breed in mind. I just don’t agree with the categorical vilification of ALL breeders (including performance and utility breeders) that is so mainstream in America right now. Dogs should not be such a politically divisive issue.

I have lost clients and gotten scathing and career-damaging customer reviews for having purebred dogs, for example. I would never do that to a trainer for adopting a dog, nor do I care what they do with their lives as long as it’s not harming anyone. It’s not my call.

And I don’t hate mixed breed or rescue dogs like everyone likes to claim that I do lol. I love ALL dogs and I’m not exclusively pro-purebred. One of my dogs is a true rescue (from a shelter) and Enzo is a breeder repossession, so also a rescue, technically. My first few Dogo Argentinos were rescues and may have had mixed heritage (they were not AKC registered either.) That was my introduction to the breed.
I advocate extremely strongly and really fight for rescuing Pitbulls and other “Bully” dogs too. They have the hardest time getting adopted and are killed inhumanely far more than any other breed because of fearmongering conservative propaganda and disgustingly prejudiced legislature.
I think some things that some shelters and rescues do are equally horrible to things that backyard breeders do, having worked professionally at a rescue organization (a lot of stuff happens behind the scenes that they don’t want you to know Especially questionable practices around euthanasia and spay/neuter surgeries.)
But I would never discourage anyone from adopting a dog and I think getting them out of shelters (and breeders doing their part as well to prevent more dogs from ending up in them) is just as important as preserving the gene pools of specialized purpose-bred dogs.

Hope that makes sense lol. I used to get in a lot of horrific arguments for defending my livelihood that left me sobbing and having panic attacks (and people telling me to kill myself) but I’m also not going to defend anyone who is not innocent. Any community has some bad apples, like I’ve pointed out in recent posts. The dog community is absolutely not an exception.

Sounds like the horse community has the same propensity towards toxic practices and I would strongly advocate against that as well.

 

[Callistemon]

As I see it, these ethical problems arise when there is money to be made...that always seems to be part of the problem. If only people valued integrity over wealth.

It is really nice to meet a person who has integrity about animals and breed standards. And no wonder you get emotional - you're basically in Mordor, in terms of ethics...

 

[Luca]

I might be a bit biased... but I think he's the most beautiful dog in the universe
That head carriage and those hindquarters are really something.

He is another one that's not just bred for looks though, don't let that perfect Pointer head fool you... I've posted a few videos on here of him hunting, and he has full instincts and a really strong work drive. We're working on some field titles too. He's pretty close to getting his Junior Hunter title.
Also a highly trainable, biddable, and hardworking obedience competitor, which is evident in all the pics and videos I've posted of him.

To make everything more impressive, Pointers are notoriously stubborn and hard to train lol

 

[Callistemon]

I especially love this picture:

Not just the length of his legs, but of his forearms - that's why I thought he would move. Working dogs tend to have lithe bodies with long legs and looong forearms like this.

I just love his eyes - and that nose...