I Got A Problem I Would Like To Confess

[GypsyMoth]

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Sure, one could argue that the word outdated may not be perfect, but I think @Aspychata’s point stands. “Masculinity” is a simple word… It’s very definition refers to “traditionally associated with men.“ Whose traditions are they speaking of here? From what time period? In what culture? There are infinite traditions around the world. In our smaller worlds, traditions, expectations, and desires are all relative and subjective experiences of individuals. This is where @Aspychata’s use of the word outdated seems particularly relevant. “Traditional men” is a concept that has changed drastically overtime and from one location to another.

The problem here is that many men on this forum, who struggle to find a partner, seem to think that they must fit into some kind of specific definition of masculine. This is simply not true, and it makes me absolutely heartbroken for men. There is no narrow definition of masculinity…

Well, like they say, if it's new, it's probably not true.

Having studied worldviews and the great philosophical turns in great depth, I'm going to bow out of replying further--lest I bring the cave we're huddled in down upon us all.

I will agree with you that there is a cultural crisis of what to do with today's men, especially young men. This is most certainly a symptom of larger, farther-reaching cultural problems at work...and again, I need to bow out.

 

[GypsyMoth]

Masculinity is NOT outdated, per se. A person, male or female, should be considered to be "formidable and dangerous",...but with self-control. Many of the martial arts underlying mantra's incorporate this into their teachings. Better to be a warrior in a garden,...than a gardener in a war. Masculinity often gets confused with "toxic masculinity" as if they are the same thing,...and they are NOT,...two very different things. The problem is that, culturally, in the US, we have spent the past 40 years literally sucking the masculinity out of males, much to our society's demise. We have generations of males who have been told that who and what they are is to be inhibited,...and that has a horrible psychological effect. Keep the good,...weed out the bad,...and that hasn't been done in this cultural experiment we've been a part of.

Yep, I gotta learn how to do that on a layperson's level. Thanks for saying what I cannot.

 

[Aspychata]

Is it? The most gorgeous man I ever met was, hands down, the most handsome, most masculine man I have ever laid eyes on. I do not blush and most men do not impress me. But this guy, wow. I was not only beat red but my hand shook as I handed him the form he needed to fill out. I literally could not say anything intelligent to him. It must have been mutual because, on their way out, I overheard his buddy reminding him that he was married. Talk about Adonis in the flesh.

If you're masculine, it'll attract those who appreciate masculinity. If you're not, then whatever it is you are will attract those who appreciate that instead. Whatever you are, just follow the old bard Shakespeare's advice: to thyne own self be true.

I have met some gorgeous men who were more effeminate, so beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder and they were extremely intelligent. So the male models can now look softer and just as good looking without the stereotypical masculinity that was predominate 15 years ago.

Oops- you left the post. But we all enjoy reading your perspective, and your opinions are valued here.

 

[GypsyMoth]

....so beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder

That's a good area we can agree upon. I enjoy reading your perspective, too, so please don't take offense at my bit of pushback. (Not that I thought you did, it's just I've been told I come off a bit too resolute for most people's tastes.)

 

[Rodafina]

Having studied worldviews and the great philosophical turns in great depth, I'm going to bow out of replying further--lest I bring the cave we're huddled in down upon us all.

Full friendliness here. I just do not understand what you mean. Do you mean you just don’t want to talk about this anymore? I can’t tell if you feel offended or not, so I wanted to clarify, and I hope what you’re saying is you just don’t feel like discussing further which is absolutely totally fine.

What does “bow out” mean?

 

[Rodafina]

partly because of the my autism,...partly because of confusing messages from the 1960's-80's embracing one model,...and then the 1990s-2020s embracing a different model,...and I was caught between two worlds.

yes! Exactly. Such confusing, societal messages, and impossible expectations. Bringing us ever back to the idea that partnership and attraction may be more about the match, than meeting any kind of external standard. I think compatibility would be a more useful goal than seeking someone who has somehow been measured to be masculine or feminine or attractive or good or bad or what have you.

 

[GypsyMoth]

Full friendliness here. I just do not understand what you mean. Do you mean you just don’t want to talk about this anymore? I can’t tell if you feel offended or not, so I wanted to clarify, and I hope what you’re saying is you just don’t feel like discussing further which is absolutely totally fine.

What does “bow out” mean?

Hi @Rodafina, no problem, let me PM you. I just don't think what I have to say would be of further benefit to the thread.

 

[GypsyMoth]

What does “bow out” mean?

I could answer this here, though. It just means to leave gracefully, before saying something that can cause any trouble. Don't worry about not catching the idiom--I usually misuse them & confuse people with whatever I come up with. I've got a new one: go eat frogs. I'm thinking, why would someone want to eat frogs? Yech. I found out it just means to start working down your list of tasks you've been putting off for a rainy day--or something like that. Maybe it's closest to meaning "stop procrastinating"?

 

[Twitch]

I take everything too seriously

I’m very confrontational, to an extent

I have this never bow down approach, meaning I never lower my head for no one

I’m super competitive, sometimes way too competitive

The destroying someone mindset, or rather wanting to excel at everything, problematic

Can relate. I have a natural, and extreme desire to argue and debate everything people say. I don't mean to be hostile while I do it but people tell me I very much come off that way. Also, because I was tormented for my weirdness as a kid I can be very much in people's faces when I feel I'm being mocked or slighted in any way. I was also held back early on in school because I was so overwhelmed when I started going to school so anything I percieve as a challenge to my intelligence puts me in a very confrontational mindset and makes me want to humiliate the person doing it. I've been very viscous at times.

 

[KevinMao133]

Can relate. I have a natural, and extreme desire to argue and debate everything people say. I don't mean to be hostile while I do it but people tell me I very much come off that way. Also, because I was tormented for my weirdness as a kid I can be very much in people's faces when I feel I'm being mocked or slighted in any way. I was also held back early on in school because I was so overwhelmed when I started going to school so anything I percieve as a challenge to my intelligence puts me in a very confrontational mindset and makes me want to humiliate the person doing it. I've been very viscous at times.

i just got into another argument with someone, over comments I deem to be disrespectful towards my family

I thought I had my emotions in check but apparently not

life has been bad for me recently, emotionally it’s been up and down

anyways I can tolerate disrespect toward me but very serious when it comes to comments deemed towards my family

 

[KevinMao133]

thats just autism you learn to avoid humans

yep. Relationships pertaining work or school is fine for me but I don’t extend it further

when I was in school, I only talked to classmates because of group protects or class contents. I prefer to stay alone on my downtime

 

[Matthias]

What does masculinity have to do being too serious, competitive, and confrontational? These sound more like genderless traits, or as @Matthias mentioned difficult mental health challenges that could be addressed.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being serious, competitive, or confrontational unless it's abnormally excessive. I think some people are too serious because they're out of touch with their emotions, too competitive because they're insecure and feel like they need to be successful to feel worthy, or too confrontational because they have anger issues or a negative thinking bias that results in them feeling attacked when people disagree with them. If @KevinMao133 has those traits for the reasons I mentioned, I think he'd feel better and enjoy his life more if he worked to overcome them.

 

[Rodafina]

I don't think there's anything wrong with being serious, competitive, or confrontational unless it's abnormally excessive. I think some people are too serious because they're out of touch with their emotions, too competitive because they're insecure and feel like they need to be successful to feel worthy, or too confrontational because they have anger issues or a negative thinking bias that results in them feeling attacked when people disagree with them.

If @KevinMao133 has those traits for the reasons I mentioned, I think he'd feel better and enjoy his life more if he worked to overcome them.

@Matthias, totally agreed, and you said it well. Not trying to put words in your mouth.

I was just saying that these traits are not specifically masculine. A person of any gender persuasion could have these traits, it’s just in my culture they are closely tied to the idea of masculinity and lead onto that slippery slope of toxic masculinity that @Neonatal RRT mentioned. But, yes, I think you described well when the benign traits can become problematic.