How Hormone Therapy Changes the Brain

[Au Naturel]

Dude, it isn't as deep as you think it goes. Gender is a social construct that practically anybody can interpret however they wish. In the medical and scientific fields, the terms "male" and "female" refer exclusively to biological sex, with intersex being the term used when there is defects in a person's sex chromosomes. While you may be correct in some parts of what you are saying, it seems that you are trying to swim deeper when there isn't actually anything beyond the shallows.

And I believe that people, in general, do not swim deep enough. The world is very deep, in some places deep beyond our comprehension. Our job is to grasp as much of the complexity as we can and use it to infer what may lie below.

 

[Au Naturel]

Yep... Gender is a mess.

Culture is what messes us up whether it be gender, sexuality, race, or cognition (being ASD like us).

Agreed! The problem is not the notion of male and female. That is a pretty fundamental concept that long predates the emergence of homo sapien and meets the needs of 90+% of the people in the world. It isn't going away any time soon.

It is the assignment of rigid roles defined by the large majority that causes problems. This is especially problematic in cultures that demand conformity. (Sadly, that's all of them to varying degrees.) I believe we need to accept people as unique individuals instead of trying to pigeonhole them.

 

[Joshua the Writer]

And I believe that people, in general, do not swim deep enough. The world is very deep, in some places deep beyond our comprehension. Our job is to grasp as much of the complexity as we can and use it to infer what may lie below.

Yet you seem to fail to realize that some things only extend to their surface level. Overcomplicating thing is never a good idea, and just will have you ending up with even more questions. After all, why do complicated thing when simple thing does trick?

 

[Jonn]

I do not believe that differences or traits are defects.

Rule number 1, there are no rulz, ergo, no breaches of any rulz.

I have difficulty understanding how people can't understand that all complex human social systems are arbitrary, and only exist because sentient and self aware entities created them, out of their imagination and usually, pragmatic considerations.

Without sentience and self-awareness, there is no judgmentalism.

I often wonder what value systems sentient and self-aware reptiles would embrace.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Rule number 1, there are no rulz, ergo, no breaches of any rulz.

I have difficulty understanding how people can't understand that all complex human social systems are arbitrary, and only exist because sentient and self aware entities created them, out of their imagination and usually, pragmatic considerations.

Without sentience and self-awareness, there is no judgmentalism.

I often wonder what value systems sentient and self-aware reptiles would embrace.

One involving the exchange of insects instead of money! With this fly, I thee wed

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Yet you seem to fail to realize that some things only extend to their surface level. Overcomplicating thing is never a good idea, and just will have you ending up with even more questions. After all, why do complicated thing when simple thing does trick?

Back to talking about trans stuff...

Elliot Page! This just made my day!

Trans men are totally underrepresented! I am so jazzed he came out

Elliot Page, actor known for ‘Juno’ and ‘The Umbrella Academy,’ comes out as transgender

I am not usually into the celeb thing but representation is so important!

 

[Au Naturel]

Rule number 1, there are no rulz, ergo, no breaches of any rulz.

I have difficulty understanding how people can't understand that all complex human social systems are arbitrary, and only exist because sentient and self aware entities created them, out of their imagination and usually, pragmatic considerations.

Without sentience and self-awareness, there is no judgmentalism.

I often wonder what value systems sentient and self-aware reptiles would embrace.

There may not be any natural rulz but there are people happy to apply artificial consequences. Aye, there's the rub!

 

[Au Naturel]

Back to talking about trans stuff...

Elliot Page! This just made my day!

Trans men are totally underrepresented! I am so jazzed he came out

Elliot Page, actor known for ‘Juno’ and ‘The Umbrella Academy,’ comes out as transgender

I am not usually into the celeb thing but representation is so important!

Now that was completely unexpected. My wife and I are currently watching Umbrella Academy.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Now that was completely unexpected. My wife and I are currently watching Umbrella Academy.

Great show I hope he gets some male roles soon!

 

[Rat]

Dude, it isn't as deep as you think it goes. Gender is a social construct that practically anybody can interpret however they wish. In the medical and scientific fields, the terms "male" and "female" refer exclusively to biological sex, with intersex being the term used when there is defects in a person's sex chromosomes. While you may be correct in some parts of what you are saying, it seems that you are trying to swim deeper when there isn't actually anything beyond the shallows.

Gender roles are a social construct but there is obviously a connection to gender identity and biology. While there aren't in a literal sense "male" and "female" brains there are noticeable trends and differences between the two. Most people have traits that can be found in the other sex but overall women tend to have more female-patterned like brains and males tend to have more male-patterned like brains to varying degrees. Of course, there are going to be people who don't fit this criteria 100%. Transpeople at the more extreme end and GNC cispeople to a lesser extent. There have even been studies that show that transpeople's brains resemble their gender identity more than their birth sex which shows links to gender identity being based on biology (interestingly enough an area that gets affected a lot is the area that affects how your brain maps its body. I wish I saved the study I read on it but I am a little too busy atm to find it, its a relatively recent one).

I honestly never got how someone could agree transpeople are valid but at the same time say that gender isn't real. If gender isn't real and being a man is a gender then how can you see a transman as a man? It just sounds like you just think that its better to just humor transpeople to be nice and not because you actually see them as their gender.Maybe I am just misinterpreting people when they say this but that is the only way I can interpret it myself.

(when I say "you" I dont mean you specifically btw, I dont personally know you. Just wanted to point that out since I dont want to put words in your mouth but I tend to use 2nd person pronouns a lot in my speech which is confusing sometimes)

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Gender roles are a social construct but there is obviously a connection to gender identity and biology. While there aren't in a literal sense "male" and "female" brains there are noticeable trends and differences between the two. Most people have traits that can be found in the other sex but overall women tend to have more female-patterned like brains and males tend to have more male-patterned like brains to varying degrees. Of course, there are going to be people who don't fit this criteria 100%. Transpeople at the more extreme end and GNC cispeople to a lesser extent. There have even been studies that show that transpeople's brains resemble their gender identity more than their birth sex which shows links to gender identity being based on biology (interestingly enough an area that gets affected a lot is the area that affects how your brain maps its body. I wish I saved the study I read on it but I am a little too busy atm to find it, its a relatively recent one).

I honestly never got how someone could agree transpeople are valid but at the same time say that gender isn't real. If gender isn't real and being a man is a gender then how can you see a transman as a man? It just sounds like you just think that its better to just humor transpeople to be nice and not because you actually see them as their gender.Maybe I am just misinterpreting people when they say this but that is the only way I can interpret it myself.

(when I say "you" I dont mean you specifically btw, I dont personally know you. Just wanted to point that out since I dont want to put words in your mouth but I tend to use 2nd person pronouns a lot in my speech which is confusing sometimes)

I don't think many people feel that gender isn't real. I do feel that many people view gender as non-determinative and more flexible than the traditional idea of binary genders. This is also historical. Trans people have always existed.

 

[Rat]

I don't think many people feel that gender isn't real. I do feel that many people view gender as non-determinative and more flexible than the traditional idea of binary genders. This is also historical. Trans people have always existed.

But if gender is a social construct then you can't innately be a trans person. Trans people are trans for biological reasons, which is why trans people have always existed historically. If a transperson was somehow born alone on an island and never saw another person of the opposite sex they would still be trans. If gender was just a social thing then you can't be born that thing if its something that is just a social construct.

 

[Jonn]

While there aren't in a literal sense "male" and "female" brains there are noticeable trends and differences between the two.

Next, you will be telling us that males and females have different musculature. [joke/irony]

 

[Jonn]

There have even been studies that show that transpeople's brains resemble their gender identity more than their birth sex which shows links to gender identity being based on biology

That seems to be logical. Being an atheist, I have no belief in a gendered "soul", so organic/natural gender identity would have to depend on physical neurology. What else is left? Magic?

 

[Jonn]

(when I say "you" I dont mean you specifically btw, I dont personally know you.

Sheldon Cooper would use "one".
Does "one" understand my point?
And, yes, in this context "one" mean you.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

But if gender is a social construct then you can't innately be a trans person. Trans people are trans for biological reasons, which is why trans people have always existed historically. If a transperson was somehow born alone on an island and never saw another person of the opposite sex they would still be trans. If gender was just a social thing then you can't be born that thing if its something that is just a social construct.

What is innate in this case? Humans generally run culture as their operating system... sometimes the hardware does not run the operating system the way other people in the culture expect. This is true for ASD and transgender people.

Gender is more than genitals. If we were animals... it wouldn't matter other than who carries the offspring. Human brains run culture. It is their social survival method. If they were born alone... they would not run culture. They would simply be who they are regardless of gender. Words and concepts like trans and ASD are part of human culture. There is likely a biological component that runs more gender specific culture. If this is the opposite of what culture deems correct behavior for that person's gender, the result is gender dysphoria.

In the end it is all about not invalidating the experience of another person.

Humans run culture... that culture runs on the machinery that is the human brain. That machinery sometimes does not match individual cultural expectations. Some cultures do not have a problem with the third gender.

There is no nature vs. nurture... nature is nurture and nurture is nature. I happen to be a person that runs very little culture at all... just enough to get by. People like me might not even have trans because we have very simple gender presentations. For me... it is all about mating (not sex). I am deeply primitive that way. The cultural machinery in my brain does not work the way it does in most people. This is what asperger's is (although most aspies run way more culture than I can).

So if you were born on an island with nobody around... would you still be an aspie?

 

[Rat]

What is innate in this case? Humans generally run culture as their operating system... sometimes the hardware does not run the operating system the way other people in the culture expect. This is true for ASD and transgender people.

Gender is more than genitals. If we were animals... it wouldn't matter other than who carries the offspring. Human brains run culture. It is their social survival method. If they were born alone... they would not run culture. They would simply be who they are regardless of gender. Words and concepts like trans and ASD are part of human culture. There is likely a biological component that runs more gender specific culture. If this is the opposite of what culture deems correct behavior for that person's gender, the result is gender dysphoria.

In the end it is all about not invalidating the experience of another person.

Being trans isn't just liking things the opposite sex likes so you want to be that sex, its having an innate discomfort with your physical sexual characteristics because your brain got "miswired" as a fetus to see itself as a sex that it isn't. When your body does not match that wiring you get gender dysphoria. Even if you were never introduced to the concept of being trans or transitioning you would still get gender dysphoria because its something that is caused from the brain having a hard time dealing with not having a matching brain-to-body wiring. Culture obviously plays a role in how a trans person interprets their gender dysphoria and their gender identity but gender dysphoria is not a culturally created issue but a biological one.

Also, I'd argue that there are probably more-complex animals as well that could possibly have gender dysphoria but they don't have the intelligence to understand what they are experiencing. In animals it would probably present itself as them either acting out actions that the opposite sex would do or a vague sense of discomfort that the animal wouldn't even connect to being in the wrong sex's body.

In the end it is all about not invalidating the experience of another person.

this what I mean by people who imply that gender is a social construct don't really think of trans people as their gender and just use the correct pronouns in order to be nice/polite. Its less saying "I see this transperson as their gender" and more "eh, it doesn't hurt anyone just go along with it. Gender isn't real anyways so saying they are a man or woman doesn't really mean anything". This is way way better than anti-trans logic but I wouldn't really call it believing in transpeoples gender identities and more just saying that its not real in the first place so it doesn't matter if we call them their preferred gender.

There is no nature vs. nurture... nature is nurture and nurture is nature. I happen to be a person that runs very little culture at all... just enough to get by. People like me might not even have trans because we have very simple gender presentations. For me... it is all about mating (not sex). I am deeply primitive that way. The cultural machinery in my brain does not work the way it does in most people. This is what asperger's is (although most aspies run way more culture than I can).

I'm not sure how much I agree with the dichotomy between nature vs. nurture not existing tbh. Its a complicated mix that isn't always easy to pin point but its still something that exists as a thing. As far as personality goes there is definitely a good reason to try to distinguish what is innate and caused by how you are wired/biology vs what is developed through outside sources. I am adopted and I definitely developed habits that I got from my upbringing. All of these habits were instilled on me through environment (either social or non-social) However, I have personality traits that strongly resemble my birth father rather than my parents or anyone I grew up around. These personality traits I exhibited even as a young child. There is definitely a base amount of people's personality that is effected by their biology. Not all of it of course, and how they express that base personality trait changes from culture to culture and upbringing to upbringing, but to imply that personality is 100% external is just wrong.

People like me might not even have trans because we have very simple gender presentations. For me... it is all about mating (not sex). I am deeply primitive that way.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?

So if you were born on an island with nobody around... would you still be an aspie?

Yes of course. It would effect me a lot less since its a social disorder so if I don't have to socialize I wont struggle with it as much but I would still have it. I would still even be effected by it since being autistic is more than just "socially awkward disorder" and often effects things such as motor skills, learning abilities, concentration and so forth. If I left an extremely low functioning autistic person on an island they would still be low functioning, they wouldn't just suddenly spring up and be able to function on their own. Autism isn't something that is socialized into people.

 

[Au Naturel]

"If we were animals... it wouldn't matter other than who carries the offspring."

We are animals. We operate with a brain we largely share with the great apes. Sure, we've been selected over time to have a better CPU and more RAM but that old ROM is still there. It looks like the first brains came online about a half billion years ago. Ever since then, new layers were laid over the old to handle new functions. Under the cerebrum, there is the cerebellum and the limbic system. Snuggled under that is the amygdala. Below that, the medulla. Nothing has been replaced and nothing has been lost. The old layers still handle the same functions they always have. They didn't go away, they didn't go inactive, they interfaced.

"So if you were born on an island with nobody around... would you still be an aspie?"

Of course, I would. (Though with nobody around I might not survive very long.) Autism is biologically defined. There are natural consequences to it, independent of society. Then society creates additional artificial consequences for a natural state.

The notion that women and men are only different because of culture and that biology has no impact on the mind is bizarre. Only someone dedicated to a religion or ideology beyond rational thought would subscribe to that. That's an article of faith and nothing that has any scientific validity. Other, equally dogmatic people insist that all men ought to be this and all women must be that or they have a disorder. Equally obnoxious.

Bell curves with a lot of overlap is a better description of how men and women would express most non-reproductive traits.

I have a blog post on the masculinity trope in anime here:

Masculine: Biology and the Trope - Owls Blog Tour | This is my place.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

"If we were animals... it wouldn't matter other than who carries the offspring."

We are animals. We operate with a brain we largely share with the great apes. Sure, we've been selected over time to have a better CPU and more RAM but that old ROM is still there. It looks like the first brains came online about a half billion years ago. Ever since then, new layers were laid over the old to handle new functions. Under the cerebrum, there is the cerebellum and the limbic system. Snuggled under that is the amygdala. Below that, the medulla. Nothing has been replaced and nothing has been lost. The old layers still handle the same functions they always have. They didn't go away, they didn't go inactive, they interfaced.

"So if you were born on an island with nobody around... would you still be an aspie?"

Of course, I would. (Though with nobody around I might not survive very long.) Autism is biologically defined. There are natural consequences to it, independent of society. Then society creates additional artificial consequences for a natural state.

The notion that women and men are only different because of culture and that biology has no impact on the mind is bizarre. Only someone dedicated to a religion or ideology beyond rational thought would subscribe to that. That's an article of faith and nothing that has any scientific validity. Other, equally dogmatic people insist that all men ought to be this and all women must be that or they have a disorder. Equally obnoxious.

Bell curves with a lot of overlap is a better description of how men and women would express most non-reproductive traits.

I have a blog post on the masculinity trope in anime here:

Masculine: Biology and the Trope - Owls Blog Tour | This is my place.

In your world without others, there is no ASD. In your world without genders or gender interaction, there are no genders. This is about subjective experience on an island with no other humans.

Culture is what holds humans together. Bio-Gender is how humans mate... mix the two and you have a cultural concept of gender.

Honestly... with autism, you might survive even longer alone on an island. It is simply a non-difference at this point. anyway... all I give a crap about is that people are not being invalidated... everything else is semantics and mental masturbation. Culture is our survival method as a species... you cannot abstract that away and still be human because human is a definition given by.... humans. Gender is a definition given by.... humans. Masculinity... is a concept of your culture. Femininity is a concept of your culture.

Having a penis or a vagina is not a concept... but what that means to you... is a concept of culture.

 

[Jonn]

Masculinity... is a concept of your culture. Femininity is a concept of your culture.

Yup.