Autism, Neurodiversity, Neurodivergent terms...

[Magna]

"Celebrate Neurodiversity!" < That statement is seen more and more. For example, there are many different versions of T Shirts available with that slogan.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss autism and how it is included in the terms neurodiversity and neurodivergent and how it's unique.

I found the following Youtube video made by a fellow autistic person helpful to me. My summary of her video is that she believes "Neurodiversity" is being co-opted by too many other conditions and there seems to be a trend to dilute "neurodiversity" into something that's so inclusive that it may be losing any real meaning. An example she gives is that some are including depression and even mental illnesses in general as a neurodiversity. "Celebrate Mental Illness!" < Hmmmm.......No one says that and for good reason.

I also found this internet explanation link helpful to explain the differences between the terms.
What Is: Neurodiversity, Neurodivergent, Neurotypical

I believe it's a true statement to say that the groups, conditions, syndromes, situations, etc that some people include in the terms "neurodiversity" and "neurodivergent" is continually expanding.

To each their own, but I've also seen autistic people say they prefer to refer to themselves as neurodivergent rather than autistic in solidarity to others that are not autistic but are considered neurodivergent. I'm the opposite. I do not and would not refer to myself as "neurodivergent". I have no need to do that. I'm autistic. The the point that if someone referred to me as "neurodivergent", I would correct them and say that I prefer to be referred to as autistic and not "neurodivergent".

 

[Matthias]

Words are just symbols (a quick way to express a thought) that mean whatever people want them to mean. Whether people with mental illnesses like depression or ADHD qualify as neurodivergent depends on how the word "neurodivergent" is defined.

It's unclear what atypical neurology even means since people's brains are affected by stress and emotional problems which is why people with chronic emotional problems (mental illnesses) have abnormal brain scans.

 

[Darkkin]

I was diagnosed by a world famous health care system at age 4. I am autistic. Want to break it down to autistic and not. Autistic, allistic. The fact that this simple term is missing is very telling.

This video is making my brain hurt, just in the presentation style. Good grief, not an informed opinion. 'Demands of us...' 'Therapyize...' Yes, I make huge judgements based on a person's speech patterns. Just as I judge one's grammar.

And celebrating 'depression' please tell me where in tbe ND community is this going on? The fight against cures is stemming from the autistic community because 'curing' autism literally means regrowing one's entire brain.

The rate of suicide autistics is 3 times the rate of that of our allistic counterparts. 66% of autistics deal with depression. 40 - 60% have a comorbidity with ADHD. We have elevated rates of addiction and substance abuse, etc.

There is a screaming difference between treatments and cures and that is a foundational point that was not addressed.

 

[Magna]

And celebrating 'depression' please tell me where in tbe ND community is this going on? The fight against cures is stemming from the autistic community.

^ It's not going on. The point the autistic person in the Youtube video makes is that "Celebrating depression" would be wrong and even damaging. As such, her point is that any push to include and emphasize depression (or other mental illnesses) as "neurodivergent" or part of a "neurodivergent movement" is equally wrong and damaging. Some people are starting to include or want to include mental illness as "neurodiversity".

 

[Darkkin]

Depression affects allistic brains as well as autistic brains. It is rooted in brain biochemicals and as such in not a structural brain difference that cannot be altered. It responds to treatment in 66% of cases.

Check out Kandel's The Disordered Mind and Valedictorian of Being Dead by Armstrong. Both books take a look at the biochemical basis of mood disorders. If it is biochemically based, responds to medications and/or therapy, and is not a structural (hardwired) brain difference it should not be considered a neurodivergence.

 

[Matthias]

Depression effects allistic brains as well as autistic brains. It is rooted in brain biochemicals and as such in not a structural brain difference that cannot be altered. It responds to treatment in 66% of cases.

What about the 34% that don't respond to treatment? As far as I know, there aren't any structural brain differences in people with autism either. There are functional differences, of course, but the same differences also occur in people with depression.

What do you think about schizophrenics? Are they neurodiverse?
https://contactprojectillu.wixsite.com/projectilluminate/post/neurodiversity-spotlight-schizophrenia

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Perhaps I am just being an "old fart" stuck in the "dark ages" but we don't need to "celebrate" or have "awareness" days for a bunch of this stuff.

How about simply promoting positive thoughts, lifting people up, doing nice things for people for no reason at all, treating people with respect and dignity, and pausing to take in another's perspective before blurting off something stupid and ignorant out of our mouths? You know,...just being a good person.

I don't need people to be aware of my autism, let alone celebrate my "neurodiversity",...nor any other "namby-pamby" soft and childish behavior. A bit of respect and understanding is helpful, but I don't need to feel "accepted" or any special attention given to me.

I think we get so wrapped up in trying to make people feel accepted and good about themselves, we resort to these rather shallow and useless promotions. People who have certain conditions,...physical and/or mental do not need anyone's "thoughts and prayers", they just need some respect and sometimes some real help when they specifically ask for it.

 

[Darkkin]

Schizophrenics. Definitely. Long term studies have shown strong genetic component, but also physical deterioration of the white matter in their brains. Between 5 -7% loss per year.

Recent fMRI studies of autistic and allistic brains have found major pathway divergences in autistic brains and how we physically translate (process) sensory input. (Again hardwiring).

Autistic brains are also shown to be more symmetrical than allistic brains which tend to favour a hemisphere, often indicated by one's dominant hand.

As to the 34% of people who do not respond to stand medications and/or therapies, I wish there were more that could be done, but no major break throughs have been made in depression treatments since the 1960's. Results and research have plateaued, which is why there is renewed interest in treatments with 'magic mushrooms' and 'hard resets'.

 

[Matthias]

Schizophrenics. Definitely. Long term studies have shown strong genetic component, but also physical deterioration of the white matter in their brains. Between 5 -7% loss per year.

What about schizophrenics who recovered from their illness? Would you say they were neurotypical before they had schizophrenia, neurodiverse once they started to suffer from it, and neurotypical after they recovered from it?

 

[Darkkin]

What about schizophrenics who recovered from their illness? Would you say they were neurotypical before they had schizophrenia, neurodiverse once they started to suffer from it, and neurotypical after they recovered from it?

One does not recover from schizophrenia. Just like with any chronic illness, they treat the symptoms. Just like they don't cure ADHD or depression. There is a difference between a chronic condition and a neurotype.

Schizophrenia is more accurately described as a neurotype, one known, and identified before autism. The symptom list of schizophrenia is actually the source of the term autism stemming from the Greek for self.

 

[Magna]

"Celebrate Schizophrenia!" < I don't see that slogan being adopted and likely for good reason.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Autistic brains are also shown to be more symmetrical than allistic brains which tend to favour a hemisphere, often indicated by one's dominant hand.

Presumably, theoretically, this may be due to a typically thinner corpus callosum in some autistics,...the separating membrane between the hemispheres. The female brain is notable for this, as well,...part of the reason for better communication between the hemispheres,...emotion and memory tied in better, for example. For fun, I have taken those "right brain vs. left brain" tests,...pretty much even. I'd love to get in and do fMRI and/or PET scans to actually see how my brain is sending signals.

However, other studies have found that the Asperger's brain tends to have more right hemispheric involvement, versus the "high functioning" autistic brain,...more left hemispheric involvement. Furthermore the Asperger's brain tends to have a distinctive frontal cortex pattern that other autistics do not.

One of these days, we will have enough information to get the autism diagnosis out of the psychologist's office and into the neurologist's office,...or some combination.

 

[Darkkin]

"Celebrate Schizophrenia!" < I don't see that slogan being adopted and likely for good reason.

Without question on of the most devastating brain diseases known to mankind.

 

[Darkkin]

As whole, the term neurodiversity has almost become subverted in its extreme vagueness of functionality. It describes everything and nothing, sounds trendy, and makes one sound informed.

Whereas autistic and allistic, many people sterotype one and have no idea what the second means. One can be ADHD and allistic, but still neurodivergent.

 

[Magna]

Without question on of the most devastating brain diseases known to mankind.

Precisely why, in my opinion, there's a problem with including an ever-increasing list of illnesses, conditions, disorders, etc under the umbrella of "neurodiversity". Or maybe it's not a problem but instead dissolving autism as distinctive and instead absorbing it into and referring to is as "neurodiversity" is a problem.

I have attended (pre-Covid) an all day forum on autism which was put on the autism society in my state. The forum/symposium was "by autistics, for autistics". There were hundreds of people there and it was awesome. I wouldn't actually be interested in attending an all day forum on "neurodiversity"

 

[Darkkin]

Neurodivergent has become a dump term for any brain difference, naunces be damned. But the devil IS in the details. Umbrella terms are dangerous and make discourse a lot tougher because people don't understand or misunderstand a term like neurodiversity.

Even on these forums we have a lot of very capable, late diagnosed ASD1s and/or Asperger's, and that is only a small percentage of the autistic community and spectrum as a whole.

 

[Magna]

As whole, the term neurodiversity has almost become subverted in its extreme vagueness of functionality. It describes everything and nothing, sounds trendy, and makes one sound informed.

I agree with you and as such you have helped to summarize my opinions related to this thread. Thank you.

 

[Darkkin]

Good conversation on a tough, often touchy, subject.

 

[Darkkin]

I agree with you and as such you have helped to summarize my opinions related to this thread. Thank you.

 

[Darkkin]

Plenty of people have fully recovered from schizophrenia. While it's often a lifelong condition in Western counties where doctors suppress their symptoms with brain damaging antipsychotic drugs, recovery is more common in other countries where patients are treated better.

Again there is a difference between remission, a cessation of a symptomatic state, and a full recovery, returning to an unaffected state held prior to illness with no chance of recurrence.

You recover from a broken bone or the flu. Chronic illness you go into remission. You recover functionality, but the threat of relapse remains and the diseases do not go away. It is managed for the moment.

You don't regrow lost white matter in the brain. Neuropathways get rerouted. Overall functionality and capacity is still reduced. Akin to certain forms of Huntington's, Parkinson's, and Alzheimer's, there is a hereditary component and physical, measurable impact on the brain.

Better treatment, better outcomes. But it is not a cure. It is a remission do to the chronic nature of the illness itself. I deal with hyperspecific language and a chronic illness...

Take a look at the books Hidden Valley Road by Kolker and January First by Schofield. There are also follow-up documentaries on the Schofield children Born Schizophrenic.