Autism/Asperger's 'fruit salad' vs. distinct categories

[royinpink]

I've come across an autism "mythbusting" video from Donna Williams and Anthony Julian that addresses the subject of what autism or Asperger's really "is", versus all the information processing, sensory processing, agnosias, personality disorders, anxiety, tics, OCD, immune or GI issues, etc. that may or may not come with the ASD diagnosis.

They also discuss narcissism in the middle but return to if and how that fits into what she calls the ASD "fruit salad."

She mentions that one "fruit salad" of neurological issues can look like Asperger's while another "fruit salad" can look like HFA. This is a topic on which she's written books I've not read yet, the first of which was Autism: An Inside Out Approach, and is similar to the view that Temple Grandin pushes for in The Autistic Brain--that really, everybody on the spectrum has a whole bunch of different wiring issues that ought to be researched separately, instead of being so attached to labels and dividing people based on terms that should come from the data first.

This makes good sense to me. I'm also just starting to look into the old aspie/HFA distinction, as I would suspect that any differences between the two can be explained by the diagnostic criteria used to differentiate them rather than any difference in kind between them. I have yet to see any research to make me believe otherwise, but if you know of any, do alert me to it (Tony Attwood provides a nice overview of the inconclusive research here).

So, what do you think? What is Asperger's or ASD, really? Is there a way to explain it that isn't a "fruit salad" approach? Or does the "fruit salad" sit fine with you?

I feel like a bit of a bad parent starting this thread because I'm very much doing it to de-stress from a hectic time, and I might not be able to keep up with it very well. So, apologies in advance.

 

[Beverly]

In my experience, we are each so individualistic that no concrete definition of what is Asperger's or HFA can be made that would apply to everyone universally.

One of my good friend, I refer to as an Aspie but his diagnosis is HFA. His neuosyscologist told him that he was among the highest functioning autistic in the world but, he is autistic. He calls himself borderline Asperger's/HFA - Auspie if you will. Like me, he is a performing musician and publicly passes as NT (unless you know his stims and watch for them in interviews and, when he gets tense or nervous on stage.) Privately, those of us close to him agree that he seems to be an Aspie.

I think each of us could find characteristics in ourselves that cross the imaginary line between Asperger's and HFA and, those characteristics would be different for each one of us. We each also have many NT characteristics and, those vary form person to person.

I prefer simply ASD, we are on the spectrum someplace, that's enough. We all face some of the same challenges, and we each have some different challenges. Public help isn't happening but, as a community we can and should band together to help one another meet our challenges. The more we do that, the more we learn about all of the ASD and about ourselves. Eventually that knowledge will benefit the world but, you can't start at the top, any great endeavor requires a grass roots start to succeed. We are the roots, each one of us and we've got to do it ourselves, in our individual back yards before it's going to reach the world. Someday ASD will be understood, and there will be appropriate assistance and accommodations for all of us but, it won't happen if each of us doesn't get going on it in our own little worlds.

I don't think we need a myriad of labels to name each position on the spectrum, one label is enough and, ASD works for me.

Look at the other labels out there - every one of them is full of diversity and no one individual is a textbook case yet, all fall under the same label, schizophrenia, bipolar, OCD, ADHD, sociopath, psychotic, any of them are filled with diverse individuals with varying "symptoms" but each group has just one label. Do we need any more that they do for the world to identify the basics of what makes us different and, creates challenges for us that NTSs never have to face?

 

[Nitro]

I have attempted to say much of what this video had displayed all along. The labeling system is very flawed and there is little science used in diagnostics. Some people define their spectrum ride,others are defined by their diagnosis.Too much stock is taken in accepting that the pros are never wrong by many and their views become focused on becoming what is written in books instead of self discovery. The autism spectrum is a mixture of many combinations of psychological disorders that need to be addressed separately in my opinion,not a mashup to be held to one or more names.Misdiagnosis has been one of my major gripes about the way it is all handled as the pros know very little about any of it at this point in time. I tend to like Dr. Grandin's approach to the spectrum because she lives it and offers her interpretation on it from first hand experience.I have not read any of Tony Attwood's written work because my focus is on my autism and not asperger's thru my own self discovery. I have had some issues that are claimed to be comorbid,but have only studied them briefly at this point in time,so I cannot claim to be well versed on them at all.

Try not to break all of my windows when you throw rocks at me

 

[Maelstrom]

[QUOTE="royinpink, "fruit salad" of neurological issues can look like Asperger's while another "fruit salad" can look like HFA. [/QUOTE]
Hi royinpink , I'm baffled as to why this seems difficult to everyone. It's relatively simple, the main category of classic autism is procesing overload due to brain connectivity issues, it may seen counter intuitive but apparently there is insuficient conection culling in autistics leading to bus line overloads of our processing centers. The rest can easily be devided by brain sectors. You have language sectors in the brain, visual sectors in the brain, reasoning sectors in the brain, math, touch taste and balance. Personally I'm beginning to wonder if the brain filter membrain in unborn babies has density issues or something interfering with even distrabution of glucos and hormons during the babies development. We seem to see under developed sectors, (under fed), next to over developed ones,(over fed).
All one needs to do is map his deficits and gifts to find out how his brain sectors grew, simple.
Personally I do not feel auti overload is remotely the same as aspie empathic face reading blindness, overload is a stess related conective issue, the empathic reading one is a actual brain sector deficit thing. I have some of both so I know they can produce the same resulting communication blindness, however I can feel when overload is not in play, the aspie thing messes with you all the time.

 

[Warmheart]

Wellllll....

 

[Nitro]

Wellllll....

Laughs...you always pull thru with major impact often employing minimal tactics

 

[Nitro]

[QUOTE="royinpink, "fruit salad" of neurological issues can look like Asperger's while another "fruit salad" can look like HFA.

Hi royinpink , I'm baffled as to why this seems difficult to everyone. It's relatively simple, the main category of classic autism is procesing overload due to brain connectivity issues, it may seen counter intuitive but apparently there is insuficient conection culling in autistics leading to bus line overloads of our processing centers. The rest can easily be devided by brain sectors. You have language sectors in the brain, visual sectors in the brain, reasoning sectors in the brain, math, touch taste and balance. Personally I'm beginning to wonder if the brain filter membrain in unborn babies has density issues or something interfering with even distrabution of glucos and hormons during the babies development. We seem to see under developed sectors, (under fed), next to over developed ones,(over fed).
All one needs to do is map his deficits and gifts to find out how his brain sectors grew, simple.
Personally I do not feel auti overload is remotely the same as aspie empathic face reading blindness, overload is a stess related conective issue, the empathic reading one is a actual brain sector deficit thing. I have some of both so I know they can produce the same resulting communication blindness, however I can feel when overload is not in play, the aspie thing messes with you all the time.[/QUOTE]
Well put,it strikes home

 

[hiraeth]

I've been given a lot of different labels over the years and actively explored / identified with others; most of it follows a pattern of initial discovery and excitement ("omg there's a term for what I feel") and then disillusionment after spending a certain amount of time in the community formed around that label and realizing that some - often most - of the people using that label are really, really different from me! I don't think that anymore, though.

Now I know that just about every label used to categorize people exists as a spectrum. I'm not really a fan of inventing lots and lots of subcategories in general; experience tells me that it tends to confuse more than clarify, because there becomes a point at which subcategories get too granular and no one can possibly fit neatly into a particular subcategory. Then that could initiate multiple rounds of "but which subcategory am I? I'm sometimes this and sometimes that, I have characteristics of both, but but but....." which I think is largely unnecessary.

If someone cares enough to know the fine details of how exactly the spectrum manifests for me personally, it's probably more effective to explain with concrete personal examples rather than sub-labels.

Besides, fruit salads are yummy and healthy.

 

[AsheSkyler]

I'm too weird for normal people and too normal for weird people. I don't belong anywhere.

I have never found a label that fully encompasses who I am. Some of the lists for "female asperger" gets pretty close, but it's still patchy. Those gaps usually get filled in by comorbids. So for my flavor of autism, whatever it is, the motley/mutt analogy works for me. I prefer referring to it as a hamburger myself, because some autistic people are just buns and patties, while others are those suped-up steakhouse burgers. And since I enjoy being whatever I am, I'd rather refer to it as a food I like rather than one I dislike.

I have not read any of Tony Attwood's written work because my focus is on my autism and not asperger's thru my own self discovery.

I'm still trying to get through the first chapter of Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome. I just don't like his attitude in that first chapter and my OCD won't let me skip around like how those lazy and chaotic teachers do at school and in college.

 

[Maelstrom]

I'm too weird for normal people and too normal for weird people. I don't belong anywhere.

I have never found a label that fully encompasses who I am. Some of the lists for "female asperger" gets pretty close, but it's still patchy. Those gaps usually get filled in by comorbids. So for my flavor of autism, whatever it is, the motley/mutt analogy works for me. I prefer referring to it as a hamburger myself, because some autistic people are just buns and patties, while others are those suped-up steakhouse burgers. And since I enjoy being whatever I am, I'd rather refer to it as a food I like rather than one I dislike.


I'm still trying to get through the first chapter of Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome. I just don't like his attitude in that first chapter and my OCD won't let me skip around like how those lazy and chaotic teachers do at school and in college.

Hi AsheSkyler I guess that makes me some kind of Hawian Honey Burger... as sometimes I feel like I'm swimming in honey...and others I just feel like hamburger.

 

[Epicurean Pariah]

In my experience, we are each so individualistic that no concrete definition of what is Asperger's or HFA can be made that would apply to everyone universally.

One of my good friend, I refer to as an Aspie but his diagnosis is HFA. His neuosyscologist told him that he was among the highest functioning autistic in the world but, he is autistic. He calls himself borderline Asperger's/HFA - Auspie if you will. Like me, he is a performing musician and publicly passes as NT (unless you know his stims and watch for them in interviews and, when he gets tense or nervous on stage.) Privately, those of us close to him agree that he seems to be an Aspie.

I think each of us could find characteristics in ourselves that cross the imaginary line between Asperger's and HFA and, those characteristics would be different for each one of us. We each also have many NT characteristics and, those vary form person to person.

I prefer simply ASD, we are on the spectrum someplace, that's enough. We all face some of the same challenges, and we each have some different challenges. Public help isn't happening but, as a community we can and should band together to help one another meet our challenges. The more we do that, the more we learn about all of the ASD and about ourselves. Eventually that knowledge will benefit the world but, you can't start at the top, any great endeavor requires a grass roots start to succeed. We are the roots, each one of us and we've got to do it ourselves, in our individual back yards before it's going to reach the world. Someday ASD will be understood, and there will be appropriate assistance and accommodations for all of us but, it won't happen if each of us doesn't get going on it in our own little worlds.

I don't think we need a myriad of labels to name each position on the spectrum, one label is enough and, ASD works for me.

Look at the other labels out there - every one of them is full of diversity and no one individual is a textbook case yet, all fall under the same label, schizophrenia, bipolar, OCD, ADHD, sociopath, psychotic, any of them are filled with diverse individuals with varying "symptoms" but each group has just one label. Do we need any more that they do for the world to identify the basics of what makes us different and, creates challenges for us that NTSs never have to face?

Beverly, I agree that the label has little to do with anything. We are what we are, and it is for others to hopefully accept us as we are, or reject us as we move past them.
I have some labels for all ASD.
You are, "loved".
You are, " needed".
You are, " welcome".

 

[Nitro]

I've been given a lot of different labels over the years and actively explored / identified with others; most of it follows a pattern of initial discovery and excitement ("omg there's a term for what I feel") and then disillusionment after spending a certain amount of time in the community formed around that label and realizing that some - often most - of the people using that label are really, really different from me! I don't think that anymore, though.

Now I know that just about every label used to categorize people exists as a spectrum. I'm not really a fan of inventing lots and lots of subcategories in general; experience tells me that it tends to confuse more than clarify, because there becomes a point at which subcategories get too granular and no one can possibly fit neatly into a particular subcategory. Then that could initiate multiple rounds of "but which subcategory am I? I'm sometimes this and sometimes that, I have characteristics of both, but but but....." which I think is largely unnecessary.

If someone cares enough to know the fine details of how exactly the spectrum manifests for me personally, it's probably more effective to explain with concrete personal examples rather than sub-labels.

Besides, fruit salads are yummy and healthy.

I have a very organized diagnostic mind,which drives me to determine actual faults,not generalizations as Asperger's/autism appears as a common label. A blanketed diagnosis may not offer you the help you actually need and leaves too much room for error,as autism does not hold a one size fits all pattern.

"If someone cares enough to know the fine details of how exactly the spectrum manifests for me personally, it's probably more effective to explain with concrete personal examples rather than sub-labels." this is self discovery at work which indicates the need for added labels for the pros

 

[Progster]

I found the video very informative and helpful. I like how they demonstrated how one label can blur into another, and then it becomes really hard to separate ASD from other conditions. I also like the idea of expressing the degree to which one is affected by traits as a percentage - I am 60% aspie, 20% OCD, 15% dyspraxia, etc. That can help me see where I am on the spectrum. It might be a helpful diagnostic tool if someone could make a questionaire with questions relating to a number of related or comorbid conditions to see where a person lies on the neurodiverse spectrum as a whole. A label might give others information about what kind of difficulties I face, but it doesn't define me as a person. But using labels is not bad in itself. It's just a way of describing and talking about those particular traits that a group of people have in common. After all, one has to call the condition something. The problem with labels is when they become stigmatized or abused by those ignorant or unaccepting of the condition, and that's not the fault of the label.

 

[Datura]

When I first started looking into Asperger's I had that "eureka!" moment where I was like, "OMG! That's me! That's my life story all packed up in a neat little label." But I no longer feel that way.

It is true that finding this label has brought me a great deal of self knowledge and even a sense of community in the form of this site, but the more I looked into it the more I realized I didn't fit all of the criteria. I was reassured that Autism was a spectrum, and that nobody "ticks all the boxes", but that makes them no less aspie. It also became evident just how subjective the criteria are, and that one person could go to a number of different professionals and receive just as many different diagnoses.

As science and technology improve in the field of psychiatry I believe we will find a great deal of both overlap between and fragmentation within our current diagnostic frameworks. As we delve into brain function words like "Asperger's" and "autism" will likely fall out of fashion in favor of more accurate descriptions of brain function. Perhaps such labels will persist in describing syndromes linked to genetics or environmental factors, but the actual treatable phenotypes will be described using different nomenclature.