AA sucks.

[the_tortoise]

This is a short answer to the question "What is synanon?" APA Dictionary of Psychology

 

[Metalhead]

Seriously, I went to a couple of AA speaker meetings where the guys talked about how they made amends to people who raped them when they were kids as if it were their responsibility to do so.

I do not hate myself that much.

 

[JayLapointe]

I agree that this is not the best way to approach group therapy. It should be a positive experience with positive reinforcement of behaviors.

I am so very fortunate in my area to have a weekly Addictions peer support group run by provincial health services. It is for all addictions not just alcohol, led by a rotation of Social workers/nurses/intervention workers, but always a health services professional trained specifically in addictions treatment.

There are no steps, there is no set agenda, it literally is just the random group of us that show up each week to have a discussion. Sometimes if folks aren't talkative the session host will suggest a topic, ex "how do you cope with high risk unexpected triggers". But for the most part we come up with enough on our own. We support each other, give each other ideas on staying sober, what has and hasn't worked for us, cautions on things we did wrong. And honestly just true non judgemental support where if one of us does have a slip, there is no shame, it's something to learn from. We just are happy that whomever it was that did slip was brave enough to admit it to themselves, come back to the group, and tell us. Because everyone in that room has struggled and slipped before. I have never heard of another group quiet like it, which is a shame because I think it could really help a lot of people.

 

[JayLapointe]

Seriously, I went to a couple of AA speaker meetings where the guys talked about how they made amends to people who raped them when they were kids as if it were their responsibility to do so.

I do not hate myself that much.

That is seriously messed up. That isn't making amends. That sounds like retraumatizing the poor individual. If you got abused as a child it is never on you to forgive the abuser. Child abusers deserve to be chucked groin first into a wood chipper.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Seriously, I went to a couple of AA speaker meetings where the guys talked about how they made amends to people who raped them when they were kids as if it were their responsibility to do so.

I do not hate myself that much.

Wow! That's messed up. That's a whole different mindset than what I would have.

 

[Metalhead]

That is seriously messed up. That isn't making amends. That sounds like retraumatizing the poor individual. If you got abused as a child it is never on you to forgive the abuser. Child abusers deserve to be chucked groin first into a wood chipper.

I believe my aunt deserves the death penalty. Coercing me into degrading sex acts and then telling me I almost murdered her baby in her womb after I told her she would be a bad mother while she was doing that?

 

[Shevek]

Seriously, people there telling me that because I am an alcoholic, I am automatically the biggest problem in any given situation? Telling me I should apologize to mother and keep dropping my boundaries for her because we do not give up on family in this organization, because after all, we are the only real assholes in any given room?

Forget that.

AA is only for people who want to celebrate self hatred.

I had a friend who got up on stage to help the singer. When her friends told her about it the next morning, she decided to go to AA. Then she decided that if drinking led to AA, she'd rather quit, and did.

I should also point out that there are just as many people in Al-Anon as AA. They are only trying to recover from being with an alcoholic.

 

[thejuice]

Honest question: Why do you think this?

That their needs to be a support group for families of alcoholics is quite telling. The damage is widespread and generational.

Alcohol impairs one's ability to regulate emotions, makes them impulsive, irrational, delusional, inappropriate and have zero self insight into their own behaviour.

They might overeact to minor inconveniences or comments, say unjustifiably hurtful things, let people down, be totally numb and emotionally unavailable, spend/ steal money for their addiction, cross boundaries, neglect family, lie to avoid accountability.

Alcohol is prioritised over everything and they choose to drink despite knowing it hurts loved ones. It's awful to witness a slow, self pitying, self destruction. Family and friends bear the brunt of the addict's misery, anger and frustration. The alcoholic wallows in resentment and exists under a black cloud.

I have a brother who is busy alienating absolutely everyone and is unjustifiably acting like a victim narcissist. His brain is scrambled eggs. Aggressive, mean, self absorbed, everyone can see it except the one in the eye of the storm.

 

[Masked Man]

You need to get help with your anger.

You are absolutely justified in feeling the way you do - but you need to find a way to work through it.

I've noticed you go on these spirals every so often. That means you have a lot of unresolved pain.

I don't believe AA can do that for you. You need separate help for both issues.

Best of luck

 

[Metalhead]

You need to get help with your anger.

You are absolutely justified in feeling the way you do - but you need to find a way to work through it.

I've noticed you go on these spirals every so often. That means you have a lot of unresolved pain.

I don't believe AA can do that for you. You need separate help for both issues.

Best of luck

I agree.

I do not want to be stuck here forever.

 

[JayLapointe]

I believe my aunt deserves the death penalty. Coercing me into degrading sex acts and then telling me I almost murdered her baby in her womb after I told her she would be a bad mother while she was doing that?

That is horrendous mate. Certainly would never think to make "amends" to that sort of thing, or even to forgive them. Some things can't be forgiven. But, you can learn to let go of the resentment, and if you can let go of resentment, without forgiving those that don't deserve it, then you can move forward with your life. They can rot. She deserves to rot, deserves worse, but I can't write it on this forum.

 

[Metalhead]

That is horrendous mate. Certainly would never think to make "amends" to that sort of thing, or even to forgive them. Some things can't be forgiven. But, you can learn to let go of the resentment, and if you can let go of resentment, without forgiving those that don't deserve it, then you can move forward with your life. They can rot. She deserves to rot, deserves worse, but I can't write it on this forum.

Oh, my sponsor told me she deserved my empathy because hurt people hurt people.

 

[JayLapointe]

Oh, my sponsor told me she deserved my empathy because hurt people hurt people.

Empathy is just understanding where she's coming from. Sure she may have been abused herself and that is the root cause of her abuse. I understand that, I can appreciate that, it doesn't in any way shape or form condone what she did.

To even think of forgiveness would require her, not you, her putting in the work of trying to make amends, if that is even possible.

But I'll say it again, you personally can let go of the resentment and move forward. Be done with her, don't let her occupy that mental headspace and drain your energy without her even being present. Life's to short to dwell on the wrongs people have done to us. Anger/resentment whatever you want to call it just eats away at you. You can let that go without forgiving someone.

 

[Masked Man]

Empathy does not mean forgiveness.

I have empathy for a few of my family members. It doesn't mean I associate with them. I don't think about them.

I certainly don't let them live in my head rent free, which is basically what you're doing.

The opposite of love is not hate, it's apathy.

 

[Metalhead]

Oh, I was told there was nothing to forgive. I’m the asshole, remember? I owe my aunt amends, not the other way around.

I think I am going to stop going to AA altogether. They are extremely toxic and their toxicity is dragging me down.

 

[JayLapointe]

Oh, I was told there was nothing to forgive. I’m the asshole, remember? I owe my aunt amends, not the other way around.

I think I am going to stop going to AA altogether. They are extremely toxic and their toxicity is dragging me down.

At the very least try a completely different group. That is one thing to note they aren't all the same, and group dynamics play a big part. But that current group, if it's dragging you down, it's time to leave it.

 

[Metalhead]

Assholes Anonymous is better off without my participation.

Seeing as most of the men there are predators who will jump on any young woman who goes there looking for help to stop drinking, I want nothing more to do with those people.

 

[the_tortoise]

That their needs to be a support group for families of alcoholics says it all. The damage is widespread and generational.

Alcohol impairs one's ability to regulate emotions, makes them impulsive, irrational, delusional, inappropriate and have zero self insight into their own behaviour.

They might overeact to minor inconveniences or comments, say unjustifiably hurtful things, let people down, be totally numb and emotionally unavailable, spend/ steal money for their addiction, neglect family, lie to avoid accountability.

Alcohol is prioritised over everything and they choose to drink despite knowing it hurts loved ones. It's awful to witness a slow, self pitying, self destruction. Family and friends bear the brunt of the addict's misery, anger and frustration. The alcoholic wallows in resentment and exists under a black cloud.

Aggressive, mean, self absorbed, everyone can see it except the one in the eye of the storm.

Thank you for your explanation- for helping me to understand your thought process and perspective.

I do acknowledge the scenarios you describe happen...but I think it's unfair to presume the sort of thing you describe matches every alcoholic's story. (Ditto for assuming the stories of their friends and family.)

Not everyone acts the same when intoxicated just like not everyone acts the same when sober. I have known alcoholics who kept their drinking so secret nobody ever knew -- and who drank so heavily for such a long time they ended up in medical detox to make sure they didn't die from AWS seizures when they were ready to stop. (And I know death is rare but it does happen)

Some with addictions lash out, some don't.

Some will steal or beg to support their habit, others won't (many people end up sexually exploited to support an addiction while never exploiting anyone else - men and women alike).

And not all friends and family are hurt in the ways you describe.

Even those who are indirectly hurt (as in not by mistreatment, violence, exploitation, betrayal of trust; but by worry, or the pain of social distance or disappointment as the person hides their struggle or cannot function normally etc...or the pain of losing someone to an overdose ) ... not all of us think that person is to blame and should apologize.

One of my best and closest friends in this world died from an overdose.

When he was alive I worried about him when he was using, and I missed him when things were bad and he disappeared instead of reaching out.

But I was not angry, and I did not ever feel victimized by him nor did I think his drug use was a simple choice he made. I knew about his childhood and the pain he carried -- I knew how hard he tried to heal.

He never mistreated me or anyone as far as I knew. Even when using he was one of the most gentle and generous people I ever knew (both materially and emotionally) to the extent he had anything to give.

I was never angry, and I never blamed him. I would have been be horrified if he tried to aplogize to me for any hurt I ever felt related to his addiction, including (if it were possible) his death.

I have only ever grieved him since he died, and when he was alive I felt bad for him -- but never because of him. It was not his fault what was done to him. And his drug use was him doing his best to live with the pain.

He went to NA. He went to rehab more than once. He tried. And even if he had never tried to heal and get clean and sober, or to just manage his use, I still would not have judged him, I would not have faulted him, and I would not have blamed him.
__________
I had another friend, he was addicted to meth and he had a drinking problem.

He never stole from me or mistreated me either. Actually he protected me from people who might have done those things and from sexual predators and taught me quite a lot about personal safety, and I know he was exploited...I found out how badly when I learned I was the only one of his "friends" (many of them were absolutely not his friends) his mother liked and trusted to come to their house.

And I protected him sometimes too -- had to herd him back to my house sometimes when we were out late, he was wasted, and he had no way to get home...he was silly mostly, but sometimes obnoxious and mildly inappropriate. It was stressful, exhausting. But I feel he owes me zero apololgies for the times I lost sleep and became overwhelmed and exhausted keeping an eye on him until he sobered up. He owes me zero apologies for anything. I chose to support him, and I chose to hang out with him when I knew he might be annoying and obnoxious - he didn't make me...and its not like sober people are never obnoxious, annoying, or abusive. He was my friend and a very kind and gentle and moral person. I accepted him as he was, and loved him as he was
__________
I dated a guy who was a seriously mean drunk. I, like his friends, would just walk out when he got wasted and started being a jerk. It didn't happen often and if it had our relationship would have been a lot shorter. He did apologize when this happened (only twice) which was good. I forgave him, because he earned it.

I never saw his drinking as just a selfish choice he should be ashamed of...I knew a lot about his life childhood, too, and I saw his drinking as something that he needed help with - a struggle worthy of compassion and support. (At the same time as I had clear boundaries what I would put up with or not.)
____________

I grew up around addiction . I know the damage done to people. I have been robbed by people supporting a habit. But I also know that addiction is more than a simple choice, and in most cases rooted in pain.

I worked with street involved youth and many had very severe addictions.

And I share this just to say, I am not ignorantly unaware of how bad people's behaviour can get, in all kinds of ways.

Just to show you not everone is the same, and to explain why I will never assume that just because someone is an alcoholic or addicted to something else that they have directly harmed others in ways they should apologize for;

Sometimes that may be the case but sometimes it isn't.

And the last thing an innocent person seeking support for addiction rooted in trauma needs is to be revictimized by spurious accusations based in presumption leading to insistence they have something to apologize for;

Especially when they're getting told they need to apologize to their actual-wrondoing abusers who are presumed to be the victim only because are presumed to have no addiction and didn't initiate a no-contact situation since they have no need for one, being the perpetrator...this is a good example of why assuming and passing judgement about someone without actual knowledge of the specific situation for that particular individual you're judging is such a bad thing to do.

 

[Shamar]

Telling me I have to make amends to people who sexually abused me when I was a child is taking that way too far.

It seems to me that happened long before you were an alcoholic, and was likely one of the causative factors. If you offended people while drunk, an apology is in order. Since this happened before you started drinking, they are the ones who should apologize (I know, it will never happen). You should NEVER apologize to anyone who abused you for their abuse. From what you have written in the past, you never had a family to give up on.

I knew one alcoholic who finally decided to clean himself up via AA, and went to every person he offended while drunk. I accepted his apology and I told him he wasn't the one who caused the offense, it was the alcohol. We never had any problems after.

 

[Metalhead]

Here is an update. I had a two hour talk with one of my closest friends, who is not a 12 stepper. I should focus on the progress I have made and the progress I continue to make. I also have a room for rent available on the other side of the country if I want it.