Forget what people say love is...

[DogwoodTree]

Don't post any cliches or pat answers or habitual responses. Just pause and ponder for a moment...

What is it you want most in a relationship (platonic, romantic, all of them in general) in order to feel loved? ...in order to give love?

I'm hypothesizing that, for aspies, love looks somewhat different than what most people think of as love. Although I suspect there will be a lot of variation, I'm also looking for patterns.

So, for example, I feel like I've been loving to someone when I bring forth an interesting idea. And I feel like they're loving me when they offer interesting ideas to me...ideas I haven't thought of yet, but that are intricately connected to something I'm already interested in.

On the flip side, I feel like someone is being unloving when they're being boring, and that I show self control and respect by not subjecting them to boredom from me.

I feel like I'm being loving when I share an experience with someone, walking through something side by side.

I feel like I'm being loving when I figure something out about someone and contribute to their interests.

I feel loved when someone thinks favorably of me...respects who I am and what I contribute...and thinks of me as a unique person whose uniqueness is inherently interesting and appreciated.

I feel loved when someone holds good boundaries, managing their own stuff, respecting my ability to manage my stuff, isn't easily offended, and has absolutely no need to put me down in order to feel good about themselves.

Those things that make me feel loved, are the same kinds of things I offer others in love. But it's not often recognized as love by them. So I wonder if I can put together something like a list of the "five aspie love languages."

What are your thoughts?

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

Wow.

Wanted to acknowledge a magnificent post. My only thought is that I have to sleep on this; if I start writing now, I may finish by dawn, and tomorrow's a work day.

 

[Spiller]

Hmm, excellent question.. a tricky one for Aspies? Tough for me anyway, as I don't have much experience of being loved the way I love.
So just how it feels to me then..

I feel I'm loving when:

I give someone attention because I value their company, because of the positivity I feel being with them.

When I care about how someone feels (though that's admittedly most people to varying degrees, depending on how they've treated me).
.. but it's unconditional for my kids - yes they can hurt me, but I find it easiest to forgive them because I understand them so well. There's also the feeling of fulfillment I get thinking of - and doing for - them.

When I'm sharing an experience (good or bad) with someone, I want to share that and I want to see it through their eyes, understand it as they do, feel the connection of common thoughts and feelings.

When I want to get to know someone, learn about their likes and dislikes, their interests, what they love, what makes them sad.

I feel unloved when:

I'm not respected as a person and as who I am, as I'd respect another.

When another wants to gain somehow from me, materially, emotionally - without a balance

Those things that make me feel loved, are the same kinds of things I offer others in love. But it's not often recognized as love by them.

I understand that I'd feel loved if someone offered me what I offer them, but if it's the case, as you find DogwoodTree, that they don't recognise my expression of love, then can I recognise theirs.. can I ever feel loved?

 

[DogwoodTree]

I understand that I'd feel loved if someone offered me what I offer them, but if it's the case, as you find DogwoodTree, that they don't recognise my expression of love, then can I recognise theirs.. can I ever feel loved?

That, for me, is the crux of the question.

Are you familiar with Gary Chapman's five love languages book? [Note to other readers: If you haven't posted your thoughts about love yet, please don't look that up until you've posted. The list of the five love languages might be distracting and make it difficult to get a good feel for how aspies perceive and receive love. But after you've posted your initial thoughts to the OP, google away, lol. Thanks.]

So...some of my codependent family has taken that book as "evidence" that each person is "owed" expressions of love in their preferred love language. If one person prefers compliments, for example, then everyone must compliment that person excessively in order for that person to be able to do their work successfully in our family business. If she's not getting her work done on time, it's likely because she's not getting enough compliments, so it's everyone else's fault. (Yes, this was an actual conversation I had with this person.)

At the same time, I recognize that I have a really hard time feeling loved when the only expressions of love towards me, for the most part, are based on typical love languages (none of which really appeal to me all that much). So, my personal experience is that love communicated in the wrong "language" doesn't really have the same impact as love communicated in the right "language." At the same time, it's challenging to communicate love in a language that is not your own...it feels fake to me, personally. Plus, it's easy for people to get so focused on, "I'm not feeling love from you because you're not doing it the way I want it!" instead of "I recognize the genuine expression of love you're offering, even though it's not necessarily the way I would choose it."

It's kinda the same question...if someone gets you a gift that is something you don't like, do you recognize "it's the thought that counts", or do you lean towards "they just don't really know me, so I don't really feel loved from this."

Basically...I don't have the answer.

 

[On the Inside]

Like Aspergirl, I'll need to think about this. I am really looking forward to reading the responses and discourse. I have read the "Love Languages" book, but like most self-helpy books, my grip on the gist of it had a short shelf life.

 

[royinpink]

I feel like I'm being loving when:

-I share my joy and enthusiasm with someone. This is a rare occurrence for me anymore, and I really have to trust you to let my guard down enough to express joy in a way that feels natural to me. So I guess part of it is I hope they recognize it as an expression of trust and security as well.

-I try to visualize/feel the world from your perspective, how you have lived your life and come to be who you are. It's like a very intense daydream. Maybe loving is not quite the right word for that, but you have to be important to me.

-I remember the foods and things you like and give them to you at random times. Relatedly, I remember your routines and preferences and adapt to them or fit mine alongside yours.

Hm, somehow I've changed from third to second person...

-You are in my thoughts, or my thoughts are 'to' you. Everything I think is interesting, I want to share with you. It can be a little overwhelming (to you). I think it is akin to treating a person as a special interest, except they themselves aren't the special interest exactly, but sharing thoughts with them is just as calming (and obsessive) as learning about the special interest in itself.

-I feel like some of the things I associate with (mostly romantic) love would almost be described as a theory of mind problem, like, "I feel like I'm being loving when I experience giddiness, tightness in my chest, insomnia, and fascination with their body." Not because I feel those things, but because I feel they should somehow 'know' that they are special, cherished, and good simply because I feel that way...through telepathy. I do try to verbalize it because I know that's not logical, but it is hard, because words are never good enough.

-I experience anxiety when you are in a bad situation, and I try to help you. Even if that means fighting against your own self-defeating habits and beliefs. Here, the time and emotion invested and willingness to struggle through conflict is a better indicator, because I generally find it easier to 'do for other' than to 'do for self', so that in itself doesn't indicate love.

-I try to take care of you, e.g. getting you food when you are hungry, helping you find things you have lost, being your caretaker when you are sick, or any kind of help really. This applies to non-romantic love, as does the previous one. But only when it's done entirely of my own accord, I think because usually this would be something I would forget, remember too late, or think they could handle themselves. So if I do it of my own initiative, that means you are in my thoughts.

-I share things that are special to me with you, like a favorite place outdoors, or anything I would think is authentic and too silly to show anyone else.

-I enjoy spending time with you in silence. Again, not sure if this is being loving itself or just a sign of a loving relationship, to me.

I feel loved when...

-Many of the same things, like care-taking and remembering my preferences and sharing favorite things/interests.

-I must say, I would probably not appreciate my tendency to over-share, though. I mean, I wouldn't mind, but I'm not sure I'd take it as an expression of love, exactly...like maybe they are overly dependent on me or something. That may be an accurate criticism of myself. I do have trouble with boundaries, and that does come partly from low self-esteem etc. I'm better than I used to be.

-Looks, gestures, body language, etc. Does someone respect my boundaries, look at me as a person rather than an object, and proceed with caution, haha.

-Someone is willing to show their 'silly' side...humor, inside jokes, childish things.

-Or their serious side, their inner world and thoughts.

 

[metalminx24]

I think love is trying. It's doing the best you can to understand, support, comfort, learn, (amuse?!) the person you love. It's trying to make them happy, in whatever guise that takes (because it's never the same twice). And to feel loved is to know that that person is trying just as hard. Love is sharing experiences and not always looking for someone better to come along and not giving up when things are rubbish. I think.

 

[BIMOG]

Love, like friendship, is a concept that I simply don't understand and consequently have no experience of.

 

[On the Inside]

I'd say that what I think of as love is indeed the pat, stereotypical love of stories, songs, movies and poetry. That is how it has been defined to me, and has forever been held out as an unattainable, unrealistic standard and expectation. Something that has almost become an obligation, if one is to have any close relationship with another human. I still long for it, though. It seems that the reality of ourselves and the difference in expectations are always far enough off that this notion of love is kind of built on unstable ground. Thus the existence of "relationships" filled with anger, resentments, passions and emotional drama.

What I think of as more "loving" is fondness, something more attainable. A warm, peaceful feeling of wanting to do something especially for another person, be with them when you can. Accepting them for who they are, where they've been, understanding that they might change in the future, and being ok with that. Maybe that is being willing to grow with them, perhaps separately or in a different manner. It is flexible, understanding that the one constant in the universe is change, so flexibility and the ability and willingness to alter and be altered is inherent. Wanting to be with one another, yet knowing that we all have paths that have merged for some reason, and will diverge and merge again as we weave our lives.

 

[DogwoodTree]

A warm, peaceful feeling of wanting to do something especially for another person, be with them when you can.

Are you an aspie who needs a lot of space? If so, how does wanting to "be with them when you can" work out for you?

I ask because, there are people I love dearly, but I don't necessarily want to be with them whenever possible. I truly need a great deal of alone time.

Maybe that is being willing to grow with them, perhaps separately or in a different manner.

This is a really good point. I do want to grow alongside the people I love. Not in the same way as each other necessarily, but in ways that we each contribute to the other's growth process. As much as I need routine (stability), I also need growth and change (authenticity).

 

[On the Inside]

I do need a lot of space and don't get it in the form that I need very often. Even when I do it has boundaries and limits that can actually make my time alone more nerve wracking than not having it at all. I guess that is being in a relationship, having a family. What has also happened is that I have had to greatly reduce my time spent with anyone else but my family. I have always kept myself pretty isolated from others, even those I call friends, but now I really have zero time for them. I get my "alone time" space at work (I am largely self directed) and by staying up late a few nights a week.

This is a really good point. I do want to grow alongside the people I love. Not in the same way as each other necessarily, but in ways that we each contribute to the other's growth process. As much as I need routine (stability), I also need growth and change (authenticity).

I like how you put that, especially the part about contributing to each other's growth process. That is vital, to me.

 

[Ste11aeres]

I feel loved when someone is able to hold back, and to respect me. When they don't force themselves on me. But only if that non-forcing is not motivated by indifference to me; only if it is motivated instead by an ability to wait and to see whether I need them close to me, or whether I instead need room to grow.

This attitude of love is explained very clearly in the works of the psychiatrist Conrad Baars.

I like how you put that, especially the part about contributing to each other's growth process. That is vital, to me.

I wrote that paragraph and then read this. Striking similarity.

 

[royinpink]

Maybe that is being willing to grow with them, perhaps separately or in a different manner. It is flexible, understanding that the one constant in the universe is change, so flexibility and the ability and willingness to alter and be altered is inherent.

I definitely agree with this. My response was based on my interpretation of the post, which I thought was about demonstrating love, or 'being loving', which I interpreted more as acts to show another person that you love them, or communicate your love to them. If I had to define love itself or a loving relationship, I would go a different direction...

Also, I feel like the second part of my post was kind of a lie. I don't know if I ever feel loved. I don't know why not. I recognize the signs I mentioned, but it's like if you aren't 'in tune' with me and as all-or-nothing as me, then it is somehow invalidated. Maybe I've felt myself to be the recipient of non-romantic love, but not within my family.

 

[DogwoodTree]

What has also happened is that I have had to greatly reduce my time spent with anyone else but my family.

Me too. The past year or so, especially, I've only had so much energy for "peoples." I've chosen to focus that energy more and more on DH and the kids, to the exclusion of most other social connections.

If I had to define love itself or a loving relationship, I would go a different direction...

Please do...

Also, I feel like the second part of my post was kind of a lie. I don't know if I ever feel loved. I don't know why not. I recognize the signs I mentioned, but it's like if you aren't 'in tune' with me and as all-or-nothing as me, then it is somehow invalidated. Maybe I've felt myself to be the recipient of non-romantic love, but not within my family.

I struggle with this (my OP felt rather inaccurate, too...I'm not sure I would say that I "feel loved" so much as that I feel a temporary sense of anticipation and excitement that maybe I've found someone who "gets" me when I have those experiences that I listed). I'm not sure I really know what it feels like on the inside to receive love. I know people love me. But it's kinda like trying to describe colors to a blind person. I think some of this is due to AS, but some of it is due to growing up in a family where "love" was distorted...what was presented as love was really just manipulation and control and abuse.

This is really why I'm asking the questions. I'm wondering if maybe I can feel love if it's communicated in my "native" love language, whatever that might be.

 

[royinpink]

Please do...

Hm, I think a full definition would take a bit more thought than I want to put into it at the moment. But part of it is definitely not idealizing the person but rather loving them as they are and having the faith whoever they become, being a part of their life will enrich yours. One time, two and a half years ago, I wrote, "Devotion comes through slogging through the mess that is reality and loving it because through that beating, you changed. You learned something, became a little closer to someone or something else, and bear the marks of it." I was pissed off at people who idealize things at the time.

I'm not sure I would say that I "feel loved" so much as that I feel a temporary sense of anticipation and excitement that maybe I've found someone who "gets" me when I have those experiences that I listed

I know that feeling... And the subsequent disappointment. I've considered that perhaps it's not me but rather part of the human condition that people just don't 'get' one another that well. Still undecided on that.

Who is it who originally said the thing about humans being essentially alone? I've managed to find a Hunter S. Thompson quote: “We are all alone, born alone, die alone, and—in spite of True Romance magazines—we shall all someday look back on our lives and see that, in spite of our company, we were alone the whole way. I do not say lonely—at least, not all the time—but essentially, and finally, alone. This is what makes your self-respect so important, and I don't see how you can respect yourself if you must look in the hearts and minds of others for your happiness," and a shorter Orson Welles quote along similar lines.

Perhaps I am misremembering, but I thought there was an older one.

I think some of this is due to AS, but some of it is due to growing up in a family where "love" was distorted...what was presented as love was really just manipulation and control and abuse.

Oh yes, I have some of the same issues. :/ That's why I said if I've experienced nonromantic love, it has been outside my family. Weirdly, I think being a teacher gave me that experience more...because for certain kids I really took the time to help and support, they had this faith and respect for me. I don't know if it was more admiration, and it certainly wasn't on equal footing because I was an authority figure and couldn't really share my problems with them. But there was a sense of connection, of being valued, of people wanting to be close to me and have my approval and respect. And trust. They trusted me. It's a bit intimidating honestly, 'cause I would always feel like somehow I don't deserve that and I'm going to fail them.

I think maybe I haven't experienced this in my peer relationships so much because I am used to being taken for granted, and I gravitate toward people who don't trust easily and are not very expressive. Trust is a big one. Whether they were in an abusive relationship themselves or had a parent die or whatever, I do not have many friends, family, or partners who easily give trust.

Perhaps the feeling of not deserving trust is a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. (not that I let people down, but that I don't put myself in a position where I could)

 

[donn]

"If I love you, what business is that of yours?" - Goethe

I expect there is something intensely selfish in the way in which we love - my love for another tells a great deal about me, and may have virtually nothing at all to do with them. A discerning selfishness, in turn, is only to be expected of those who receive love.

Love is an affirmation, a "saying Yea" as Nietzsche puts it, of something or someone. I was engaged, only a short while ago, to a woman who, it turns out, was leading multiple lives. I did, and still do, love what I had at many times in that relationship, that reflection of herself that she put forward with me, but I do not love her as I now understand her to be. Her ability to make me feel loved was certainly the greatest I have ever felt, and I'm aware that it will likely be years until I find another person who might be able to make me feel that way.

What I seek for in love is as complete a knowledge and affirmation as is possible of what I am, what I see myself as, and what I want to be. These three are not always in easy alignment, and I suspect that my typical sense that I am not really loved comes of the difficulty others have in handling these varied aspects. That psychopath, however, had a natural, nearly perfect sense of them all and did, in her own way, love me for them.

A less philosophical and more practical approach to it would be a few points. Someone with whom I rarely have to engage in my usual constant self-censorship, someone who appreciates the traits I specifically try to develop in myself, and someone who can point to parts of my personality that I am blind to - these qualities make me feel love from another person.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I know that feeling... And the subsequent disappointment.

Yes...that disappointment...I'm finally starting to see that pattern for myself in the past couple of years, and slowly convincing myself that the pleasure of the anticipation isn't worth the pain of the disappointment later. If the anticipation was intermittently satisfied at times, perhaps. But it never, never, never turns out that way. Always disappointment. And the higher the anticipation, the deeper the disappointment. It's so very painful, to be reminded yet again that the desperately desired connection never, ever happens, at least, not in a way I've yet recognized.

it certainly wasn't on equal footing because I was an authority figure and couldn't really share my problems with them. But there was a sense of connection, of being valued, of people wanting to be close to me and have my approval and respect. And trust.

It really is satisfying, isn't it, to pour yourself into a child's life? I feel that way with my kids. No, I don't dump my junk on them--that's not their job, and they're not mature enough to handle even knowing about my struggles, much less helping. But to build them up, and pour into their lives, and see them grow and thrive and trust me in return, and then to pull away from me and become their own persons while still feeling secure in our relationship...there's such a sweetness in that.

not that I let people down, but that I don't put myself in a position where I could

Me too

Someone with whom I rarely have to engage in my usual constant self-censorship, someone who appreciates the traits I specifically try to develop in myself, and someone who can point to parts of my personality that I am blind to

This is an excellent description. Self-censorship is so much a part of my existence...I really don't know how to not self-censor. I've never, ever, ever trusted anyone to that level. I don't know how.

Sounds like, from both of you, that trust is a big part of what love is. For me personally, and for many aspies, where we have such a hard time trusting anyone because we sense that we're too different for others to tolerate...maybe that's part of why it's so hard to receive love. We don't trust people enough to be authentic with them.

 

[On the Inside]

Someone with whom I rarely have to engage in my usual constant self-censorship, someone who appreciates the traits I specifically try to develop in myself, and someone who can point to parts of my personality that I am blind to - these qualities make me feel love from another person.

This is an excellent description. Self-censorship is so much a part of my existence...I really don't know how to not self-censor. I've never, ever, ever trusted anyone to that level. I don't know how.

Ugh, the self censorship. Can't seem to live a day without it, unless it is a day with no one else around, even then I'm sure I'm still doing it, it's just not so obvious. Does the state of being loved relieve oneself, at least a little, from that?

I am dancing around the subject though, because while I am stating that I may not have felt love, and felt loved back, there has been one person with whom those things may truly have existed. I met her when I was married to my first wife, then she was married when I got divorced, then she got divorced after I met my partner. It has caused problems in both relationships, with both my ex and my current saying that they definitely sensed that something special was going on between us, that wasn't happening in my relationships. So of course, for me, something that might have been the real thing has caused a lot of trouble and chaos.

That's why, at least for me, life exists in an environment of conflict, mixed emotions, difficult choices, all resulting in a story that is too convoluted and complicated to ever be the free, joyful sense of love that I though we were all striving for.

 

[royinpink]

I expect there is something intensely selfish in the way in which we love - my love for another tells a great deal about me, and may have virtually nothing at all to do with them. A discerning selfishness, in turn, is only to be expected of those who receive love.

I agree, but then, I am not sure if I would call that way of loving a very good one. I'd say it's what passes for love, I suppose, but not what I would call love. This and what you wrote at the end both remind me of a maxim written by Francois duc de La Rochefoucauld, "It is difficult to define love; all we can say is, that in the soul it is a desire to rule, in the mind it is a sympathy, and in the body it is a hidden and delicate wish to possess what we love—Plus many mysteries."

There are many who long to be younger, or from a higher class, or more confident, or smarter, or edgier, or whatever who seem to fall for someone who fits the image of who they wish they were. So when he says 'wish to possess' I think of lust/infatuation as not 'only' physical but also having this dimension to it of possessing qualities that the other person has. As for the 'desire to rule', he sort of clarifies after that this is about how romantic love tends to be monogamous/jealous, where the lover wants to be more special than anyone else to the person (s)he loves. And I would agree with you that both of those say more about the person who loves than about the person they love.

Love is an affirmation, a "saying Yea" as Nietzsche puts it, of something or someone.

I think I agree with this. And since you brought up Nietzsche, "What is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil."

What I seek for in love is as complete a knowledge and affirmation as is possible of what I am, what I see myself as, and what I want to be. These three are not always in easy alignment, and I suspect that my typical sense that I am not really loved comes of the difficulty others have in handling these varied aspects

Ooh, I like your tripartite description of self. But I'm not sure if that's why I don't feel loved (I think my post explained my one insight into that, though).

 

[royinpink]

It really is satisfying, isn't it, to pour yourself into a child's life?

It is the one thing I miss about being a teacher.

This is an excellent description. Self-censorship is so much a part of my existence...I really don't know how to not self-censor. I've never, ever, ever trusted anyone to that level. I don't know how.

Yeah, this is a tough one. The older I get, the harder it is to separate the 'authentic me' from the constant censorship or mask. I think it became that way around age 18-19. Funny, therapists I had (before diagnosis) thought it was some sort of sign that we did not have a good theraputic relationship if I could not 'trust' them. This really puzzled me.

When I don't censor, I am very physical in my expression. If I'm happy, I'm running, jumping, singing, dancing, making nonsense sounds, giving bear hugs, wrestling... most people do not like this. Some people think it is like some sort of manic pixie dream girl thing, but it's not. My best friend understands it means I'm happy, so she is happy for me too.

I had one sexual relationship in which I felt comfortable enough to just...be in the moment. Or even take the lead. One out of many in which I am always in my head and never quite there. Perhaps I am always just slightly overwhelmed. This one relationship was with someone who was similarly untrusting, inhibited, and self-censored (and probably an aspie).

Sounds like, from both of you, that trust is a big part of what love is. For me personally, and for many aspies, where we have such a hard time trusting anyone because we sense that we're too different for others to tolerate...maybe that's part of why it's so hard to receive love. We don't trust people enough to be authentic with them.

This is an interesting idea. I think...it's because if you can't be authentic, then they can't possibly 'really love' you because they never see the 'real you'. Or at least that is how it feels. Quite possibly, they have more of a sense of me than I realize, but if I can't open up, then it feels false.