Why is there so much confusion about the Bible and Christianity?

[SageRose]

I know lots of people-especially non-Christians, will usually mock and ignore Christianity because as they say-and they are right in that- Christianity is like a windmill..yes in a way it is today like a windmill. But why? Why not???
How can it NOT be a windmill when there are over a thousand different 'christian groups', a bunch of denominations, a bunch of cults, heresies,etc.. which ALL claim to be the ''truth''??? The Bible states it clearly that there can only be ONE truth. The Church is supposed to be the body of Christ. The body of Christ cannot possibly be divided in several different 'parts'. It is one body and one truth. The reason why most people don't know about those things is that today there are thousands of 'Christian' heresies, cult groups and denominations and each group makes up their own 'explanations' of the Bible, with none of them respecting one of the most basic Biblical rules..that no human should change or misinterpret the teachings of the Bible and that only God's sent people (saints, the Church's fathers,etc..), can properly interpret the Bible. The Bible consists of several books, most of which were writen in Hebrew and the later ones-those of the New Testament, writen in ancient Greek.

Now...the thing is...when someone takes a book that is writen in a specific language, say greek for example, and tries to translate it in his own language which might be ex. Russian, he must be extremely careful because each language has some major differences from the other. Every language has different idioms and traits. If it's hard to translate a simple book, imagine how hard it is to translate a religious book-especially one like the Bible- from one language to another. We're talking about extremely complex meanings, symbolizations, metaphors, idioms and meanings. ex. in the original greek New Testament, there is a chapter where Apostle Paul explains to people that the Lord's second coming will be so sudden, that one moment people will be working on their gardens and the next moment they will be 'gone'. Now...in Greek that part is metaphorical. In the English translations however....it's literal. What is the result of this terrible error in the translation???

The result..is that some people who read the Bible in English have come up with an entirely wrong interpretation of that part and have explained and believed it in a false and literal way which is the main reason for the existence of the so called ''Rapture'' belief which is basically a belief that at some point in the future, the ''chosen'' Christians will suddenly ''poof'' in thin air right from where they are. Poof, like some character in Harry Potter.

This is why the first and original Christian Church Fathers and Saints and of course the very Apostles had emphasized the importance of how one interprets the Bible. The Saints had made it clear that the only people who can properly interpret the Bible are those who are given the spiritual 'gift' from God to do so. And that is because humans are full of egoism. Egoism is the reason of our sins and egoism is a burden which does not allow people to see the spiritual meanings of some matters. A common human like me or anyone else out there, cannot even wish to be spiritual enough to interpret such a spiritually complex book like the Bible. That is why the original and the only correct explanations of the scriptures have happened only by Saints (people who lived their lives as close to the example of Jesus Christ as possible and were gifted by God with spiritual gifts such as future seeing, healing,etc..), and the first Church Fathers as well as modern time Saints and gifted monks,etc..

I can list a bunch of errors in the modern interpretations of the Bible from one language to another including errors in the way the Old Testament has been interpreted as well. I am going to start writing the interpretations of things such as the Genesis, as they are given to us by major historical figures of Christianity, saints and church fathers and prophets. In the next part, I will write about the hidden science in the book of Genesis.

 

[Autistamatic]

Very interesting and well informed post. You've clearly put a great deal of thought into it I look forward to reading more.

 

[SageRose]

Very interesting and well informed post. You've clearly put a great deal of thought into it I look forward to reading more.

Glad you like it

 

[Judge]

Good question. Perhaps the most common denominator to consider is man himself. A flawed, predatory, and factional species. Which potentially enables most anything to be "lost in translation" so easily.

Which promotes different interpretations of pretty much any form of dogma, whether religious, political or economic in nature. No matter how those may go about attempting to create a uniform manifesto, there will always be those to challenge and exploit it. Some for collective gain, others for avaricious personal gain.

Interesting as well is how some consider the Quran to be much more concise and uniform particularly in comparison to the New Testament. Yet nevertheless, Islam also remains intensely factionalized between Sunni and Shiite sects.

Something that all the logical and concerted efforts in the world cannot transcend. Where if a society doesn't have some form of internal division, it will find one. No matter how efficiently their dogma may be developed.

- Because it's our nature.

RIP, Thomas Hobbes.

 

[Ginseng]

As Christians having been born again, God dwells in us. We most definitely can understand scripture because of the Holy Spirit teaching us. We are instructed not to quench the Spirit or grieve the Spirit by ignoring Him and persisting in our sins. It becomes harder for us to hear Him each time we push Him away. When we sit down to read the Holy Scriptures we are to ask God to teach us and give us understanding. We ask Him to make His word come alive in us as spiritual food for our bodies. We ask for understanding along with wisdom. We get this from our personal time with God getting to know Him.


John 16:13

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.


I disagree with you regarding the Greek word. What is your source?


Where did the term 'rapture' come from?


Regarding the term rapture and its use in theology the following should answer your questions. It is taken from Ryrie’s Basic Theology, Electronic Media from Parsons Technology.

Our modern understanding of rapture appears to have little or no connection with the eschatological event. However, the word is properly used of that event. Rapture is a state or experience of being carried away. The English word comes from a Latin word, rapio, which means to seize or snatch in relation to an ecstasy of spirit or the actual removal from one place to another. In other words, it means to be carried away in spirit or in body. The Rapture of the church means the carrying away of the church from earth to heaven.

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea (Acts 8:39) and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4). Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.

Where did the term 'rapture' come from?

 

[SageRose]

As Christians having been born again, God dwells in us. We most definitely can understand scripture because of the Holy Spirit teaching us. We are instructed not to quench the Spirit or grieve the Spirit by ignoring Him and persisting in our sins. It becomes harder for us to hear Him each time we push Him away. When we sit down to read the Holy Scriptures we are to ask God to teach us and give us understanding. We ask Him to make His word come alive in us as spiritual food for our bodies. We ask for understanding along with wisdom. We get this from our personal time with God getting to know Him.


John 16:13

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.


I disagree with you regarding the Greek word. What is your source?


Where did the term 'rapture' come from?


Regarding the term rapture and its use in theology the following should answer your questions. It is taken from Ryrie’s Basic Theology, Electronic Media from Parsons Technology.

Our modern understanding of rapture appears to have little or no connection with the eschatological event. However, the word is properly used of that event. Rapture is a state or experience of being carried away. The English word comes from a Latin word, rapio, which means to seize or snatch in relation to an ecstasy of spirit or the actual removal from one place to another. In other words, it means to be carried away in spirit or in body. The Rapture of the church means the carrying away of the church from earth to heaven.

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea (Acts 8:39) and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4). Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.

Where did the term 'rapture' come from?

Ginseng, I did not say that we as Christians cannot read or understand the basics of the Bible. I said that the deeper spiritual/theological meanings can be properly interpreted by people who have dedicated their lives living by the Christian example and have been gifted by God for that. Common Christians are facing a lot of challenges and we, just like all humans, are full of egoism and pride. If the truth of the Bible relied on how each of us understands it, then it's no wonder that there are so many different interpretations of the Bible and so much confusion. It is EXACTLY the fact that we believe we can explain deep theological matters, that causes so many varied 'explanations' to exist and so much confusion.

If as you say, we can explain the Bible so well, then why are there so many different ''truths'' out there? It's simple. There are different types of interpretations out there because people have made the mistake of believing each of them can give their own little 'special' explanation or pretend to be wise enough and spiritually mature enough to dig into deep theological stuff that only people with long spiritual experience can explain. That alone shows just how arrogant and proud we are. As for theology, most saints were not theology schools students. They were people who earned their 'theology' mastering abilities through their lives of humility and God-serving. They became 'theologists' (the only proper ones), without going to any fancy university or college, but by experiencing and living into the Christ-immitating life and that is the only true 'school of theology'. Universities that supposedly 'teach' theology, are only in theory attempting to teach it but obviously can't. Theology is a way of life, it is the experience of one's spirituality and God-serving which ends up in him being spiritual enough to be able to talk about theological matters. Theology is NOT a fancy degree.

As for the Holy Spirit guiding us and showing us the truth- you forgot the part where the Scriptures also emphasize that the 'truth' is gradually given to us as we learn to overcome our sins and fight for our souls. The 'truth' doesn't come to you when you still hold on to pride and egoism. In order for us to receive the truth properly- our hearts and minds must be first cleansed from our sins. That is why the saints were the most capable ones to interpret the Bible properly because their lives allowed them to be able to 'see' the truth with the eyes of their soul, something that most humans can't. And it is also no surprise that while we humans, interpret the Bible in several different ways, the saints were the only ones who interpreted it in the same way. So did the Church fathers, so did the Apostles and so did the God-gifted monks, prophets,etc.. They all agreed...do you see that happening among us Christians??

As for the rapture you must have got confused. I did not write that the word' rapture' does not exist as a word. I said that the meaning of the word as well as the entire chapter that includes it, is interpreted literally while in Greek it's metaphorical.

The 'teaching' of the so called 'rapture' is wrong- that's what I said, not that the word as a word does not exist.

My sources are: the original ancient greek New Testament and the books of well known church saints and modern church fathers who have done their best to explain deep theological Bible parts in modern Greek and English for simple understanding.

 

[Ginseng]

I hope you do not interpret my disagreement with what you are saying as a negative thing. I appreciate your mature and healthy interaction in this conversation. Iron sharpens iron.


I did not take it you did not know the word rapture existed. I posted that because this source says the Greek word agrees with our English translation. My understating of what you said was that we had the wrong interpretation.


“As for the Holy Spirit guiding us and showing us the truth- you forgot the part where the Scriptures also emphasize that the 'truth' is gradually given to us as we learn to overcome our sins and fight for our souls.”


Scripture please?


“The 'truth' doesn't come to you when you still hold on to pride and egoism. “


Our hearts are evil and deceptive. Thankfully God does not wait for us to clean up before teaching us and making His home in us. As sinners we turn to Him acknowledging that unless He help us we can do nothing. We cannot help ourselves and we certainly cannot interpret the deep things of God. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.


“In order for us to receive the truth properly- our hearts and minds must be first cleansed from our sins. That is why the saints were the most capable ones to interpret the Bible properly because their lives allowed them to be able to 'see' the truth with the eyes of their soul, something that most humans can't.”


Scripture please?


“If as you say, we can explain the Bible so well,” This does sound a tad snarky. I hope we can avoid that.


I certainly agree with you regarding seminary schools. If anything they are more likely to make you more like the world.


We have all these different denominations because the masses make up a “god” of their own choosing. Many even call him “jesus,” but this is not the Jesus if the Holy Scriptures who created the heavens and the earth. It is not the Jesus of the Holy Scriptures who gave His life on Mt. Calvary to pay the penalty for our sins. It is a “jesus” who does things their way. They don’t obey God, they think God is supposed to obey them. Even Jesus said “Not my will but Thine.”


I don’t worship their god. The Holy Spirit guides me in the deep things of God. He will do that for anyone who will sit down with Him and be taught by Him.

 

[SageRose]

I hope you do not interpret my disagreement with what you are saying as a negative thing. I appreciate your mature and healthy interaction in this conversation. Iron sharpens iron.


I did not take it you did not know the word rapture existed. I posted that because this source says the Greek word agrees with our English translation. My understating of what you said was that we had the wrong interpretation.


“As for the Holy Spirit guiding us and showing us the truth- you forgot the part where the Scriptures also emphasize that the 'truth' is gradually given to us as we learn to overcome our sins and fight for our souls.”


Scripture please?


“The 'truth' doesn't come to you when you still hold on to pride and egoism. “


Our hearts are evil and deceptive. Thankfully God does not wait for us to clean up before teaching us and making His home in us. As sinners we turn to Him acknowledging that unless He help us we can do nothing. We cannot help ourselves and we certainly cannot interpret the deep things of God. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.


“In order for us to receive the truth properly- our hearts and minds must be first cleansed from our sins. That is why the saints were the most capable ones to interpret the Bible properly because their lives allowed them to be able to 'see' the truth with the eyes of their soul, something that most humans can't.”


Scripture please?


“If as you say, we can explain the Bible so well,” This does sound a tad snarky. I hope we can avoid that.


I certainly agree with you regarding seminary schools. If anything they are more likely to make you more like the world.


We have all these different denominations because the masses make up a “god” of their own choosing. Many even call him “jesus,” but this is not the Jesus if the Holy Scriptures who created the heavens and the earth. It is not the Jesus of the Holy Scriptures who gave His life on Mt. Calvary to pay the penalty for our sins. It is a “jesus” who does things their way. They don’t obey God, they think God is supposed to obey them. Even Jesus said “Not my will but Thine.”


I don’t worship their god. The Holy Spirit guides me in the deep things of God. He will do that for anyone who will sit down with Him and be taught by Him.

Ginseng I have no doubt that you or anyone else out there have the best intentions to go according to what the Holy Spirit guides them. My argument is that no matter how each of us repents for their sins, our sins don't just ''poof'' within a day. You may have the best intentions to cleanse your soul but that doesn't happen within a day or even weeks or months. Humans are deeply sinful and we face temptations, challenges and commit sins on a daily basis. It takes YEARS of humility, repentance and spiritual living for us to really cleanse our minds and hearts. Are you telling me that the minute you repented was also the moment you suddenly became 100% cleansed? God accepts everyone who repents. But your duty as a Christian doesn't stop there. Christians prove themselves till the very last moment. Just like Apostle Paul has said, it is both faith and the deeds that save us..not just the one or the other alone. Faith alone won't grant you salvation if your deeds don't comply with it until your last breath. Just consider one thing. The saints and the martyrs lived their lives in humility and most of them died with torturous deaths. None of them felt comfortable about themselves just because they believed. They fought for their beliefs and they fought until their death. Believing in Jesus means that we must also stick by Him until the end, otherwise we'd be like that person who sticks by their friend through the comfy times and flees through the hard times. Believing is simply not enough on its own. So just believing and repenting for your sins doesn't automatically enable you to understand theology and interpret Biblical theological matters.

That is why you and I are NOT like the saints, the martyrs, the monks,etc..Those people EARNED their ability to interpret the Bible through their spiritual life...not just by repenting about their sins. That is a great step but it is the first step...not the only step you have to take.
And I agree with you that many people who claim to be Christians don't even know what they believe in. However most of the Christians who misinterpret the Bible are well-intending people like you and me who have made the mistake to trust their sinful human self and had the overconfidence that they can 'talk theology' like those tv evangelists who pose around on the tv like living gods and act like the whole truth landed on their heads within a night of repenting for their sins. The Holy Spirit does indeed guide us...but it guides us through our humility and studying spirit. And in order for us to be humble we must be able to recognise that the Bible cannot be interpreted by all of us. The Bible itself states in several different parts that there can only be one truth. So if the truth is only one...and if we all start interpreting the Bible according to what we believe is a ''knowledge'' in us.....how on earth are we going to have ONE truth? Look at what is going on in the Christian world. There are thousands of different interpretations for several parts of the Bible. Let's suppose for a moment that what you said about us being 'cleansed enough to be guided' is true...how do you know that all those different people, cults and denominations aren't also true in their explanations? How can you tell which one is wrong and which one is true? If we can really interpret the Bible after we repent for our sins, then why do all these different Christian groups have different explanations? What are the standard criteria that one can use to identify which explanation is more likely to be true and which isn't?

And let me ask you something else too.

Which one is more likely to interpret the New Testament correctly? Someone who is able to see the meaning of the idiom in the original version or someone who owns a 4th-5th-6th-100th translated version which has not captured the meaning of the idioms used in the original version, like the one I mentioned in the 'rapture' example? Which one will explain the meaning of the chapter more precisely? The one who understands the metaphor of the language in which it is writen, or the one who owns a copy that hasn't captured the metaphor but instead takes the chapter literally-and therefore is changing the meaning of it?

The ancient church's saints, fathers and prophets all had one thing in common. Most of them knew Hebrew, Greek and other languages that were spoken at that era but most importantly they knew Hebrew and Greek. They knew how to translate and interpret the Bible in both languages. They understood those languages very well which is why they were the only true theologists who could explain all the different symbolisms and metaphors of those languages regarding the Biblical theological matters and explain them in a simple way to all the people back then.

Which modern Christian today can explain thoroughly and precisely all the symbolisms of the Bible correctly without running the risk of misinterpretation which leads to misunderstandings??

It only takes ONE word to be translated or explained wrong...ONE word wrong and you instantly have the creation of a cult. One sentence explained wrong and you have a heresy arising.

Now do you see why we have SOO many different groups of Christianity, ALL of which believe they own the ''truth''?

 

[Autistamatic]

It was written as a joke, but you made me think of it with your post above.
In Red Dwarf, Arnold Rimmer's parents were described as being "Seventh Day Advent Hoppists" who spent all day Sunday bouncing around on one leg. This was due to a misprint in their bible which talked of "Faith, Hop and Charity, and the greatest of these is Hop."
It's a humorous extrapolation of what you describe but seems hardly any less ridiculous than some of the bizarre interpretations one hears about.

 

[Pats]

SageRose. I appreciate the dedication and hard work you've put into your studies, and it truly is an interesting question - which is the Truth. It can all be very confusing and overwhelming, but I trust the Spirit that God has provided in guiding me. God created the universe and man, every waterfall, every butterfly, every grain of sand He has power over. Do you really think human beings can destroy His word and His truth? There have been thousands of theologists studying and disagreeing on how they interpret this and that passage in the Bible. One thing I always thought was very interesting was when Jesus would talk to someone, he questioned the individuals spiritual weakness - like the rich man who done everything right but walked away unhappy because he knew his worldly possessions meant too much for him. So did Jesus. That is why we need to read the Bible for ourselves and let it strengthen our won weaknesses. The NT has to be read and understood in it's entirety, not just parts taken from here and there. There are things that are not black and white written in the NT and that's usually where many of the separations come into place. It shouldn't be this way, but due to man's weaknesses, it is.
I do not let myself be lead by what any one man or person says. I look at their points and examine them against God's word. It doesn't matter to me what kid of degree they have, what they've been through in life, their title, what books they own - I have God's word.
And yes, one word can change everything, that's been known since the very beginning when the serpent added one word "thou shall NOT surely die". (That's to answer your question about who is more likely to translate correctly - none of the above).
We can only live and learn in humility, as a child with no previous prejudices and influences that we have learned through the world.

 

[SageRose]

SageRose. I appreciate the dedication and hard work you've put into your studies, and it truly is an interesting question - which is the Truth. It can all be very confusing and overwhelming, but I trust the Spirit that God has provided in guiding me. God created the universe and man, every waterfall, every butterfly, every grain of sand He has power over. Do you really think human beings can destroy His word and His truth? There have been thousands of theologists studying and disagreeing on how they interpret this and that passage in the Bible. One thing I always thought was very interesting was when Jesus would talk to someone, he questioned the individuals spiritual weakness - like the rich man who done everything right but walked away unhappy because he knew his worldly possessions meant too much for him. So did Jesus. That is why we need to read the Bible for ourselves and let it strengthen our won weaknesses. The NT has to be read and understood in it's entirety, not just parts taken from here and there. There are things that are not black and white written in the NT and that's usually where many of the separations come into place. It shouldn't be this way, but due to man's weaknesses, it is.
I do not let myself be lead by what any one man or person says. I look at their points and examine them against God's word. It doesn't matter to me what kid of degree they have, what they've been through in life, their title, what books they own - I have God's word.
And yes, one word can change everything, that's been known since the very beginning when the serpent added one word "thou shall NOT surely die". (That's to answer your question about who is more likely to translate correctly - none of the above).
We can only live and learn in humility, as a child with no previous prejudices and influences that we have learned through the world.

Hey! Thanks for your comment. I like the way you put it, I agree.
Let me note on something.
Two people can take the same verse from the Bible and read it ok? Two different people will explain that verse in a different way. Both of them will think they are right.
Both of them will use that verse in an argument and both will be like: ''give me the scripture you used to make your point?''. Apparently both of them think that reading the verse alone is enough for them to find the truth.
So if both of them explain that verse in different ways and still think they are right...which one is really right? How will I or YOU or anyone else out there, know which one we can believe?
Do you agree with me that the truth can only be one? Do you think there are several different truths? Do you think the truth of Jesus Christ is divided in different interpretations?
For example some cults seem to believe that the earth is only 6000 years old. They ignore the clue inside the Bible that God is OUTSIDE of the time (since time is created for the world inside the creation-not for HIM), and therefore the words 'years-moons and ages' in the Bible have several different meanings than what we mean when we use those words.
Then there are those who have interpreted the Bible such as saints as I've mentioned and the Church fathers who have let it be known that the world cannot possibly be so young based on the Bible's clues to us about God's timing and they are making insanely good points about it.
So which one is true?
You say you take 'bits' from what everyone says. But if the 'bits' you take are different from each other, how do you know the conclusions you've reached are true?
You say you are guided by the Spirit to know the truth. However, so does everyone else.
So if we're all guided by the Spirit, then why are there so many different groups and explanations? Which one is true and which one is wrong? Who is telling the truth about being guided, and who is lieing to us?

Τhe Bible was writen by people who were chosen and guided by God. God did not assign all people to write the Bible-He assigned specific people to write it. So if specific people were capable of writing the Bible how would ALL of us be able to interpret it correctly? We're not saints, we're not prophets, we're not Apostles, we're not church fathers, we're not even close to how monks are spiritually-yet we can all interpret the spiritual complexity of the Bible and we can ALL be right? Is it really that simple???

 

[SageRose]

It was written as a joke, but you made me think of it with your post above.
In Red Dwarf, Arnold Rimmer's parents were described as being "Seventh Day Advent Hoppists" who spent all day Sunday bouncing around on one leg. This was due to a misprint in their bible which talked of "Faith, Hop and Charity, and the greatest of these is Hop."
It's a humorous extrapolation of what you describe but seems hardly any less ridiculous than some of the bizarre interpretations one hears about.

Lol I like that one. I agree yes. One single word can change a lot and it is no wonder we have so many cults and heresies. You can't even count them anymore. All of them will tell you they have the truth yet none of them is willing to search the truth from its direct sources. I don't know but personally, if I wanted to understand something I'd search for its original source first instead of listening to what goes around on the web about it.

 

[Pats]

Hey! Thanks for your comment. I like the way you put it, I agree.
Let me note on something.
Two people can take the same verse from the Bible and read it ok? Two different people will explain that verse in a different way. Both of them will think they are right.
Both of them will use that verse in an argument and both will be like: ''give me the scripture you used to make your point?''. Apparently both of them think that reading the verse alone is enough for them to find the truth.
So if both of them explain that verse in different ways and still think they are right...which one is really right? How will I or YOU or anyone else out there, know which one we can believe?
Do you agree with me that the truth can only be one? Do you think there are several different truths? Do you think the truth of Jesus Christ is divided in different interpretations?
For example some cults seem to believe that the earth is only 6000 years old. They ignore the clue inside the Bible that God is OUTSIDE of the time (since time is created for the world inside the creation-not for HIM), and therefore the words 'years-moons and ages' in the Bible have several different meanings than what we mean when we use those words.
Then there are those who have interpreted the Bible such as saints as I've mentioned and the Church fathers who have let it be known that the world cannot possibly be so young based on the Bible's clues to us about God's timing and they are making insanely good points about it.
So which one is true?
You say you take 'bits' from what everyone says. But if the 'bits' you take are different from each other, how do you know the conclusions you've reached are true?
You say you are guided by the Spirit to know the truth. However, so does everyone else.
So if we're all guided by the Spirit, then why are there so many different groups and explanations? Which one is true and which one is wrong? Who is telling the truth about being guided, and who is lieing to us?

Τhe Bible was writen by people who were chosen and guided by God. God did not assign all people to write the Bible-He assigned specific people to write it. So if specific people were capable of writing the Bible how would ALL of us be able to interpret it correctly? We're not saints, we're not prophets, we're not Apostles, we're not church fathers, we're not even close to how monks are spiritually-yet we can all interpret the spiritual complexity of the Bible and we can ALL be right? Is it really that simple???

That's when I remind myself of Romans 14.

 

[Ginseng]

The Holy Spirit does indeed guide us...but it guides us through our humility and studying spirit.

Scripture please. You keep adding to God’s word. And the Holy Spirit is not an it, but he.

Yes Sage, that is exactly what I am saying. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from our sins the moment Christ saves us. We are washed clean and we know it. We can feel that kind of clean just like we can feel the filth before we were saved and when we partake of willful sin. But even when we partake of willful sin once we repent we are immediately made clean.

Sanctification takes a lifetime and it is not complete until we meet Christ when He returns to take his bride to the home he prepared. He does expect us to be a holy bride and not giving in to the temptations of the world. He expects us to be chaste. However none of us can do this on our own. But scripture says

Jude
24Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are not saved by works or we truly would boast look at what I did? I am saved because I am so good. Oh the pride of man.

And it is also God who is in charge of our sanctification. We do need to surrender to the guiding of the Holy Spirit and not fight our sanctification. But we all do. That is sin and we need to repent of it. If we truly belong to God we will be walking more with him each day. This is how we can make sure our calling is true and we do belong to him. Because many will hear on judgment day “Depart from me I never knew you.” Those who practice sin most likely do not know him. As Christians, our sins should grieve us. If they do not grieve us we need to cry out to God while there is still time. If we sincerely cry out to God to grant us a spirit if conviction, he will. It is the Holy Spirit’s job to convict.

The work of the Holy Spirit

John 16:4
“I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. 5But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

12“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

We do what is right in God sight because we have been born again. We do not do what is right so we will become saved. We are saved by the grace of God and God keeps us. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit. It is God doing the work in us.

“That is why you and I are NOT like the saints, the martyrs, the monks,etc..Those people EARNED their ability to interpret the Bible through their spiritual life.”

Who are these monks you refer to? God did not call his people to live in seclusion. We are to be a light in the world.

We do not earn an ability to interpret scripture. It is the Holy Spirit who searches all things even the mind of Christ. It is the Holy Spirit who lives in all believers who interprets scripture. Yes, there are many imposters, many deceived and deceivers, but still the Holy Spirit guides us in all things. Our intellectualizing and education, our good works, none of that can stand the fire. God set it up that we surrender to Him and be led by Him. We are to walk in the Spirit. But the world walks in the world and chooses the lust of the flesh, the pride of life, the desires of the eyes. 1 John 2:16

Sadly most professing “Christians” also walk in the flesh, especially those TV “evangelist.”

1 Corinthians 2:

10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

 

[Pats]

Even in the early churches there were disagreements, which is why there is so much written about separation in the church. So to me, it's fairly clear that it's not always clear. Yes, I believe 2 people can have a different way they read something and both be right. But it's important, as a Christian not to become a stumbling block over those things. So whether that church allows instruments and this one doesn't, should not cause the separation it causes. That church believes in a single cup and this one multiple cups, that one wine, this one grape juice. It's these unclear details that cause so much separation and the reason if man's weaknesses.

 

[SageRose]

The Holy Spirit does indeed guide us...but it guides us through our humility and studying spirit.

Scripture please. You keep adding to God’s word. And the Holy Spirit is not an it, but he.

Yes Sage, that is exactly what I am saying. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from our sins the moment Christ saves us. We are washed clean and we know it. We can feel that kind of clean just like we can feel the filth before we were saved and when we partake of willful sin. But even when we partake of willful sin once we repent we are immediately made clean.

Sanctification takes a lifetime and it is not complete until we meet Christ when He returns to take his bride to the home he prepared. He does expect us to be a holy bride and not giving in to the temptations of the world. He expects us to be chaste. However none of us can do this on our own. But scripture says

Jude
24Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are not saved by works or we truly would boast look at what I did? I am saved because I am so good. Oh the pride of man.

And it is also God who is in charge of our sanctification. We do need to surrender to the guiding of the Holy Spirit and not fight our sanctification. But we all do. That is sin and we need to repent of it. If we truly belong to God we will be walking more with him each day. This is how we can make sure our calling is true and we do belong to him. Because many will hear on judgment day “Depart from me I never knew you.” Those who practice sin most likely do not know him. As Christians, our sins should grieve us. If they do not grieve us we need to cry out to God while there is still time. If we sincerely cry out to God to grant us a spirit if conviction, he will. It is the Holy Spirit’s job to convict.

The work of the Holy Spirit

John 16:4
“I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. 5But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

12“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

We do what is right in God sight because we have been born again. We do not do what is right so we will become saved. We are saved by the grace of God and God keeps us. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit. It is God doing the work in us.

“That is why you and I are NOT like the saints, the martyrs, the monks,etc..Those people EARNED their ability to interpret the Bible through their spiritual life.”

Who are these monks you refer to? God did not call his people to live in seclusion. We are to be a light in the world.

We do not earn an ability to interpret scripture. It is the Holy Spirit who searches all things even the mind of Christ. It is the Holy Spirit who lives in all believers who interprets scripture. Yes, there are many imposters, many deceived and deceivers, but still the Holy Spirit guides us in all things. Our intellectualizing and education, our good works, none of that can stand the fire. God set it up that we surrender to Him and be led by Him. We are to walk in the Spirit. But the world walks in the world and chooses the lust of the flesh, the pride of life, the desires of the eyes. 1 John 2:16

Sadly most professing “Christians” also walk in the flesh, especially those TV “evangelist.”

1 Corinthians 2:

10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

Ginseng you also haven't answered in my question.
If you, I and every other Christian out there is guided by the Spirit, how do you know whose interpretation is right?
Αnd again...how do you know you're reading the proper thing when you have a wrong translation in your hands? Remember the example about the rapture? Can you tell me something?
Who was really guided by the Holy Spirit? The one who interpreted the verse with its real metaphorical meaning or the one who explained it literally???

You keep asking me to give you specific lines of the Scripture...you do realize that both of us can use the same verses and lines and both of us will explain it differently right?
So which one is right about them?

 

[SageRose]

Even in the early churches there were disagreements, which is why there is so much written about separation in the church. So to me, it's fairly clear that it's not always clear. Yes, I believe 2 people can have a different way they read something and both be right. But it's important, as a Christian not to become a stumbling block over those things. So whether that church allows instruments and this one doesn't, should not cause the separation it causes. That church believes in a single cup and this one multiple cups, that one wine, this one grape juice. It's these unclear details that cause so much separation and the reason if man's weaknesses.

I'm not talking about such details though. I'm talking about basic interpretations.
If we're all right, then why can we not agree in a simple truth? If we all explain the verse differently, who is right?
The truth cannot be divided because that would imply that the church of God-which is His body, is divided in pieces..and this cannot possibly be true.

The only 'early' church that exists is the one that was created directly by the Apostles when they begun establishing the united Christian Church in all the places they'd visit. That church was not divided. In fact, it had common liturgies and procedures, people believed in the same interpretations and fought for ONE truth.
The churches were divided later when heresies begun making their appearence and inserting the cycle of the believers. All I'm saying is that both saints, the Apostles and the prophets all agreed in one truth.
It is only us Christians that disagree-that obviously shows something big about how we 'understand' the theology of the Bible.

 

[tree]

Let's ease up on the who's right and who's wrong angle

This forum is for anyone who wants to discuss religion.
This forum is not for debating religion, preaching to others or
talking down to others based on their religious beliefs.

 

[Mary Lyn]

George Fox said that we are only given more light, if we walk in the light we have been given.

 

[Pats]

You say you take 'bits' from what everyone says. But if the 'bits' you take are different from each other, how do you know the conclusions you've reached are true?

Sorry - I skipped over this one. I didn't say I take bits. I said I look at the points they've made (as a whole). I'm saying, just because my preacher said such and such, doesn't make it infallible, and I'm afraid that many people count on what they hear others say. "The Pope decided it's okay now, so I believe it." I don't think so. Or disagreements between individuals, My preacher says this but your preacher said that - part of the problem lies in just that. People read influenced by what they've already been told it means and put too much trust in someone with a title - he's the preacher, he must know. No. Read it and study it and know yourself so you will not become the blind being lead by the blind.