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Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in between?

Discussion in 'Politics Discussion' started by epath13, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. epath13

    epath13 the Fool.The Magician.The... V.I.P Member

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    I'm not really asking which side you're on (if you don't want to answer that is :) ). I'm just wondering, do you think that most of people on the spectrum tend to be more conservative or the opposite, or are we the ones who weigh all the pros and cons from the both sides while remaining in the middle. Or do we get attached to a particular idea so much that nothing (including common sense) can move us in a different direction?
    Thoughts? :)

    I can say a few words about myself without going into details too much. I've spent my life forming and accepting values that I want to believe in, so removing them out of my system wouldn't make sense to me because I spent so much time building this system. Everything else is about trial and error.... Even though... Values are established through trial and error as well... Hmm... Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I've chosen what I want to believe in and I'm sticking to it. It doesn't mean that I think that others are wrong, time will be the judge, I can not possibly be the one, but despite of that I will still disagree with those who have different views :) hope some of you can understand at least a half of what I'm trying to say here :D
    So I'm the one who gets attached to ideas, because I choose to get attached :D
     
  2. total-recoil

    total-recoil Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    I'm essentially communist, although not in the sense of the USSR under Stalin. By "communist" I mean the kind of society that removes profit and exploitation as driving forces of the economy and replaces both by science and technology as motivating forces. Of course, I gave this a great deal of thought over quite a long time and believe the only way to end war, control population and promote technology is to create a non capitalist society. Please note, by the way, that communism doesn't exclude marketing and trade, or even free ownership of property. True, in the USSR under Stalin you couldn't own property but this was an interpretation of communism not necessarily based on true ideology. Gorbachev seemed to be on the right path to creating a liberal, equal society but then was abruptly overtaken by reactionary forces within his country so now we have a capitalist European Union instead.
    Actually Einstein was communist and another famous aspie called Socrates much admired Sparta which was also a sort of communist society.
    In short, I believe science and technology can solve most of the world's problem but to develop science means that greed and personal desire to be better than others or have more than others is a concept that will hopefully be eroded by evolution as we develop. If not, greed may well destroy us.


     
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  3. LittlePuff

    LittlePuff Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    I used to be a Socialist. Now, I'm a Conservative.
     
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  4. epath13

    epath13 the Fool.The Magician.The... V.I.P Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    @ total-recoil
    What do you think can help to eliminate greed?

    At this point I'm thinking, a change in a way we value ourselves and view our place in society. That's just a basic idea.

    @LittlePuff
    What has changed your mind?
     
  5. smith2267

    smith2267 Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    given those choices, I'm Liberal. Really though I'm libertarian
     
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  6. RubenX

    RubenX Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    I'm really outside the politics world. In many specific situations I'm liberal, while in others I'm very conservative. Those specific situations I no longer discuss with people because most individuals already have their minds made up and won't change their views.

    Now, If you ask me about a country wide trend to follow, like for example communism, capitalism, etc. I would say that the best thing to do is something that has never been done before, technologism. Don't bother googling it, like I said, it's never been done before. Essentially I want technology to keep society free from work instead of making individuals rich.
     
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  7. Soup

    Soup Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    Again, I tend to see things RubenX's way (happens a lot as it does with Holly). There are elements of every political system (except militarism, Fascism & Theocracy) that I find appealing. The problem is that the human minds creating these systems are very flawed. People are flawed. Neuroscience is in its nascent stages. Eventually, we'll figure the brain out, find out really why some people are sociopathic, psychopathic, Narcissistic or otherwise damaged in ways that cause harm to themselves & society. Hopefully thereafter we'll doscover scientifically sound treatments, cures & possibly preventative measures. THEN, we can hammer out a just political system.
     
  8. LittlePuff

    LittlePuff Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    Experience and an understanding of human nature. It would never work. People are greedy amongst other things.
     
  9. Frostee

    Frostee Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    I believe that I am between Conservative and Liberal.
     
  10. Nolan1971

    Nolan1971 Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    I consider myself to be old fashioned but neither liberal or conservative my opinions run the whole spectrum.
     
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  11. RubenX

    RubenX Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    I'm not giving up my guns tho, I tell you that up front. I already grew up in a gun-hatin' society and seen the results. I'll respect your views if they are different than mine but expect to receive the same respect if you ever see me cleaning my rifles or buying ammo at walmart.
     
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  12. Soup

    Soup Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    What results did you see in the gun hating society, RubenX? QC (except way out in the deep country where people hunt in order to survive) there are relatively few guns & people tend to fear them & dislike them in general. I've never held a gun or even seen a handgun except for on TV. What problems did you observe as a consequence of anti-gun attitudes?
     
  13. RubenX

    RubenX Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    Well... a criminal that's already planning to assault you (hence he wants to break the law) will not obey the gun control laws. Only law abiding citizens (from here on known as the victims) obey the gun control laws and disarm themselves. The criminals, knowing you have no means to defend yourself, increase their activity exponentially. To think that gun control will stop guns is as naive as thinking that prohibition will stop alcohol. It only makes it go underground and creates powerful criminal organizations. Just think for a minute of all the things that are illegal, marijuana, cocaine, etc... yet they are found easily by whoever wants them.

    Law abiding citizens with no guns use other methods to try keep themselves safe. Fortifying their houses with steel bars on the windows, 7 feet concrete fences on the front yard... and is not just PR, you can use google maps street view and virtually trabel through places like Spain and other gun hatin countries.

    I've discuss this on many forums. People always try to use some shady statistics to favor their points. I don't really care for statistics much as I have no idea how these statistics were taken and/or if they were doctored to fit/support a specific point. All I care about is that right now in my gun lovin' Florida, I can walk around my unfenced home and enjoy the view through these fragile thin glass windows without fearing being assaulted or home invaded.

    PS: Plus shooting sports are helluva fun.
     
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  14. Soup

    Soup Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    "To think that gun control will stop guns is as naive as thinking that prohibition will stop alcohol. It only makes it go underground and creates powerful criminal organizations."- RubenX.

    We all know how prohibition turned out. What a catastrophe! It is akin to 'banning' one's teen from premarital sex. This kind of absolutist parenting is a key contributor to high teen pregnancy rates.

    "The criminals, knowing you have no means to defend yourself, increase their activity exponentially. " RX

    Is this what happened in the gun hating country? Criminals became emboldened because the 'good guys' were unarmed? That hasn't happened here. We have comparatively low rates of gun violence & compared to most major cities, Montreal is one of the safest in the world. However, we have had some high profile cases of 'maniac with gun goes on a rampage'. So far, none have been revenge-type cases or disgruntled guy cases. The 3 biggies were carried out by people known to be severely mentally ill. This indicates to me that the greater problem is the way our society fails to provide adequate mental health care.



     
  15. Loomis

    Loomis Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    My politics are liberal, however I do not favor gun control as most liberals do. I have owned guns in the past. I tried deer hunting a few times but did not enjoy it. I did enjoy blasting clay pigeons with a shotgun and I also enjoyed target shooting. I got rid of my guns when I married and had children in the house. I once lived in South Dakota where anyone who wanted one could get a permit to carry a concealed weapon. I got one of these just for the heck of it and carried a concealed weapon to see what it was like. I found it to be uncomfortable because it creates the potential for an ordinary confrontation to escalate into great violence. The scenario is simple. What do you do if someone who is unarmed threatens you with physical violence while you are armed? You really now have a big dilemma. I stopped carrying a concealed weapon shortly after that realization.

    I must say the thing that disturbs me greatly is the vast intrusion into privacy by both government and corporations that has come about because of technology. I hate the fact that if I google my name there are a dozen companies that offer to give me all kinds of information about my financial, criminal, civil, geographical, etc. data. When I was young I remember the big debate about social security cards that they could become a kind of national I.D. card. This fear arose out of the recognition of what facism had done in Europe. Unfortunately we have gone far beyond this. Both democrats and republicans in the U.S. are very interested in amassing huge government data bases on all private citizens. They say this is for our protection from terrorism. Thanks, but I would rather take my chances with the terrorists than trust the government with these data. We should all be very afraid because history has taught us eventually these data will be misused. Unfortunately owning guns and storing a years worth of food in a remote area will never negate the technological ability of the government to repress and completely terrorize the entire population if the wrong people gain political power.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2012
  16. RubenX

    RubenX Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    I have heard of cities where strict gun control has been implemented *and* crime rates are very low. From my experience (and this was the whole Puertorican Island), the opposite happened. Gun control was super strict and yet murder rate is like 3 times the one of New York. From this I can not conclude that Florida's Gun Loving statutes are the reason for it's comparative reduced crime rates. But I can't either say that gun control will always bring low crime, because that doesn't always happen.

    Its kinda funny... gun control is so strict in my island that when I bought my first hunting rifle I was shaking, thinking I was going to get arrested. As I walked out the door, an employee yelled at me "sir... stop!" and I was paralyzed... turned out he was just calling me because I left my wallet at the counter, lol. He was a Puerto Rican too, and he noticed... he gave me back my wallet and told me in Spanish not to worry "It's all legal here.. you'll get used to it" ... lol
     
  17. Soup

    Soup Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    That hasn't been the tendency here in QC nor in other Canadian cities nor throughout most of Europe either. I think that culture also plays a major role in the way people see gun ownership. the US in general seems to be very much an almost gun worshipping society. People seem to be afraid of themselves & each other. So often, though, guns are found in the home by children & accidental tragedies are common (alarming statistics there). The inner cities in many US areas are shooting galleries with gang teens running amok. Like anywhere else, we have gangs (street gangs, biker gangs & the mafia). They tend to shoot at each other or their gang rivals & it is rare that bystanders get shot. There have been 3 or 4 high profile cases involving gangs who killed innocent people whilst targeting each other, one botched mob hit was a mistaken identity case where the unfortunate victim looked uncannily like the target. Turned out, the guy wasn't even Italian! When the head of the Hells Angels chapter in QC (Maurice 'Mom' Boucher) got cocky & ordered a hit on a female prison guard so some idiot could 'prove himself' & become a member, the police decimated them. The same happened to the Rizzuto crime family in QC.

    Far too often in the US (AND here too) the wrong people are the ones who want to carry guns. They are often mentally unstable hot-heads with a chip on their shoulder. They're not just looking to be able to defend themselves as a last resort; they're hoping for a confrontation that will allow them the opportunity to blast someone. These are the many thousands who wind up shooting a spouse or girlfriend in a dispute or as part of a pervasive abuse pattern. Since the economy tanked, there has been a disturbing rise in men becoming family annihilators. These stories are being carefully limited y the media so as to quell public panic & to discourage copycats but if you look it up, you'll see what I mean. Having a gun lying around makes it very easy to whip it out in a rage & make a regretful decision.
     
  18. total-recoil

    total-recoil Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    Greed can be reduced by (1) logical distribution of resources and (2) elimination of profit as the driving force of society. Lately the only thing that interests me is science and technology but what we see today is that science progresses but its progression is mainly motivated by profit. Thus, a Japanese company invests in technology to design a smaller, better mobile phone but the motivation is consumerism and profit. Put more simply still, companies hire scientists to make a buck.
    Now, if we look at space exploration even this is being taken up by private companies or billionaires who really are more interested in stuff like tourism, trips and financial gain. This is very different to the sixties when space technology was really militarily and ideologically based.
    So, you could correctly deduce I disagree with profit and marketing as the basis for society and believe the system needs to be changed dramatically so that science and technology become the ultimate values in themselves. Following on from that, materialism as a value for its own sake is actually self-destructive (something the Spartans understood centuries ago).
    I don't really endorse any current political party but I guess if the changes I refer to don't naturally come to pass in decades to come we are going to hit a brick wall with a population crisis and conflict based on struggle for resources.
     
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  19. Soup

    Soup Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    @ Total-recoil: Your thinking reminds me of the works of Jaque Fresco. He too has a very extrinsic belief about greed. I think that the 2 items you mention would work to greatly reduce manifestations of greed amongst normal mentally healthy people, but there is a disturbingly large element of sociopathic & psychopathic individuals out there. These cross all racial, ethnic, socioeconomic & cultural boundary. Smoking them out is virtually impossible as they tend to be ingratiating & charming. These are people who lack not only empathy, but any concern for ethical principles. Concepts like justice & equity are completely foreign to them. Understanding more about ourselves as humans from a neurological/psychiatric perspective must be an integral part of any effort to improve the way we run the world. Until then, people like these will cause tremendous havoc & upheaval for the rest of us who would live harmonious balanced lives.
     
  20. total-recoil

    total-recoil Well-Known Member

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    Re: Which side are the most of us on, conservative or liberal, or most of us in betwe

    Scientists tend to have no option but to work with whatever system there is so those who are lucky may get funding for research (normally with a profit agenda behind it).
    To get back to your point if society idealises gain, profit and materialism, those of us who know how to cheat, lie, tread on others and be cunning will rise to the higher echelons of the social hierarchy. Not that all businessmen fit this description, of course. However, if society values above all progress in equality, technology, medicine, logic and ethics, many social ills can be fixed. Yes, you make a good point but to what extent can balanced values be taught? The ancient Greeks actually taught ethics in schools so there were strong values that existed in Sparta or Athens. In modern schools we're not taught the importance of honesty, courage, compassion and so on. Worse still, by not being taught, we're simultaneously bombarded by the media which urges us to compete and be better than others. We were a lot closer in the sixties to a new ideal than we are now as sadly conservatism has taken a very strong root and people seem less able to question the status quo.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
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