What is it like to believe?

[Ursus Chainus]

I have known since I was quite young that I do not have the capability to believe in anything. Everything is a probability for me. This is not intentional at all. I am neither proud of it or bothered by it. When I was younger, I tried to convince myself that I believed in things because I wanted to be "normal".

In this case, I am not talking about moral, political or philosophical beliefs. One word for so many concepts... cripes.

I do "accept" things that are the highest probability based on my observations or the observations of others. Scientific theories that prove themselves over time score high on my probability scale.

I am pretty sure this has a lot to do with my place on the "spectrum" (yeah... low probability that exists).

This means I cannot be religious. I cannot make assumptions about what others want without them telling me. I cannot understand things unless I build a theoretical framework around them. I do not assign a high probability to what people tell me until I have high confidence they are sincere, knowledgeable and not deluded.

I am not an atheist because disbelief itself is a belief (I generally don't say this to atheists because I don't want to be punched)

I am an absolute agnostic.

I only felt belief one time. It is the only way I can relate to believers. That was on about 300 micrograms of LSD and 3 grams of mushrooms at a Grateful Dead concert. I saw rainbow DNA strands emitting from Jerry Garcia's head and somehow got the idea he was God and the world was going to collapse into a spiritual singularity.

I do have unexplainable experiences in my life... but that does not point me towards belief.

Is there anyone here like this? Have you been a non-believer then started to believe? Have you always been a believer? What is it like to believe for you?

No judgements from me

 

[tree]

If you don't believe anything, how do you walk?

One of the early things a baby learns is that the floor is likely to be solid.

 

[Soleil]

I don't know about religious belief. I consider myself an agnostic atheist in that I'm open to the idea of a deity, but I see no evidence that convinces me of one's existence.

When it comes to believing other things, I am pretty believing of things people tell me. Someone told me they used to work on a top-secret aircraft, and I just accepted it. Same as when I believe my friend when he tells me his cat hopped into his lap and started to purr. It just doesn't occur to me to doubt it.

 

[unperson]

Had trouble with maths cos of the abstractions involved - have been a believer in faith since childhood, had many proofs that the supernatural world is real.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

If you don't believe anything, how do you walk?

One of the early things a baby learns is that the floor is likely to be solid.

That is not a belief in the sense I am talking about. It is simply a very high probability that the ground is solid and it is a "belief" that will fail if I walk on quicksand.

One word... so many concepts. Just like the opposite of Inuit words for snow....

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Had trouble with maths cos of the abstractions involved - have been a believer in faith since childhood, had many proofs that the supernatural world is real.

Interesting... what proofs?

 

[Ursus Chainus]

That is not a belief in the sense I am talking about. It is simply a very high probability that the ground is solid and will fail if I walk on quicksand.

I don't know about religious belief. I consider myself an agnostic atheist in that I'm open to the idea of a deity, but I see no evidence that convinces me of one's existence.

When it comes to believing other things, I am pretty believing of things people tell me. Someone told me they used to work on a top-secret aircraft, and I just accepted it. Same as when I believe my friend when he tells me his cat hopped into his lap and started to purr. It just doesn't occur to me to doubt it.

Agnostic atheist... I pretty much consider that agnosticism. That is Thomas Huxley's view of agnosticism which I simply apply to everything (not just Christianity) automatically... because my brain.

So you accept other people's statement and reality as truth? You have never had a sociopath as a parent or dated one (I have had both). If a person is sincere and I have had no instances of them lying, I give what they say a high degree of probability. Although reality itself is probabilistic but I won't go down that rabbit hole.

 

[Pappy Boyington]

I am not an atheist because disbelief itself is a belief (I generally don't say this to atheists because I don't want to be punched)

I am an absolute agnostic.

Actually, what you're describing here is called Implicit or Weak Atheism. You simply lack a positive belief in a theistic god(s). It's just a default position, you have no reason to believe in something until you're given evidence for it.

You're right that Explicit or Strong Atheism is a positive belief. Explicit Atheism requires at least some evidence that rules out the existence of god. This really can't be done because we have no way of knowing what caused the Big Bang, there could be a god responsible for it.

Agnostic to me is a dumb term. I would never say that I'm agnostic towards pink unicorns, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus or anthropomorphic pizza stealing bunny rabbits. The idea that some dude who lives in the sky is watching me whack off is just ridiculous on its face value.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Actually, what you're describing here is called Implicit or Weak Atheism. You simply lack a positive belief in a theistic god(s). It's just a default position, you have no reason to believe in something until you're given evidence for it.

You're right that Explicit or Strong Atheism is a positive belief. Explicit Atheism requires at least some evidence that rules out the existence of god. This really can't be done because we have no way of knowing what caused the Big Bang, there could be a god responsible for it.

Agnostic to me is a dumb term. I would never say that I'm agnostic towards pink unicorns, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus or anthropomorphic pizza stealing bunny rabbits. The idea that some dude who lives in the sky is watching me whack off is just ridiculous on its face value.

I have been in this conversation before. Words are strange and I would be better off if I did not have to define everything. I do not believe or disbelieve but I find somethings to be of very low probability, some things to be of very high probability, some things to be of no interest and some things to be unprovable.

Call it what you will... I am using agnostic (more in the general term as it has evolved to mean lots of things) as an umbrella term here in a way that I could not use atheism ( a belief that God... or in this case... nothing exists)

The Thomas Huxley view is what I am basing my definition of agnosticism. In this case it is about all belief... not just God.

 

[Khendra]

Hi. Believer here who went through an agnostic stage from 2002-2005. Husband is irreligious; I met him in 2004.

What keeps me in faith is largely two things. #1, I strongly believe in purpose, goals, order. Without these things, civilization struggles. #2, I think Jesus had the highest morality and the greatest purpose of all. Every person and every civilization struggles with lawlessness, injustice, imperfection, suffering, death. Jesus is the only one I think lived perfectly, rightly. So I believe what He says.

 

[unperson]

Interesting... what proofs?

Oh one can't talk about the experience of the supernatural without coming off as a nutter, it just doesn't seem be credible, but that's the nature of it - it defies disbelief.

 

[Pappy Boyington]

What keeps me in faith is largely two things. #1, I strongly believe in purpose, goals, order. Without these things, civilization struggles. #2, I think Jesus had the highest morality and the greatest purpose of all. Every person and every civilization struggles with lawlessness, injustice, imperfection, suffering, death. Jesus is the only one I think lived perfectly, rightly. So I believe what He says.

As an Atheist I strongly agree with #1, I guess you could call me a Christian Atheist or Cultural Christian.

I have come to believe that religions are operating systems like Windows or Android for civilization. I came to realize this when I became active in the Atheist/Skeptical community. I noticed how many avowed Atheists were more like religious zealots than most religious fanatics. They didn't have a name for their religion but it's basically Social Justice/PC/Progressive/Wokeness. Basically, Critical Theory that is coming out of the universities is their religion. The problem with this new religion is that it hates Western Civilization, wants to destroy it, and doesn't understand the concept of forgiveness and redemption. If this religion takes root in our society (it's already infected much of it), it will bring it down.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Hi. Believer here who went through an agnostic stage from 2002-2005. Husband is irreligious; I met him in 2004.

What keeps me in faith is largely two things. #1, I strongly believe in purpose, goals, order. Without these things, civilization struggles. #2, I think Jesus had the highest morality and the greatest purpose of all. Every person and every civilization struggles with lawlessness, injustice, imperfection, suffering, death. Jesus is the only one I think lived perfectly, rightly. So I believe what He says.

Interesting

I am happy you have that solace and order! Sometimes I wish I could believe. It is a built in part of me to not be able to.

I really do like the teachings of Jesus. I believe morally in many things he said but I cannot believe in him as the son of God just because I am not wired that way. Since, in the Christian faith, God created the world and all living things... and I am a living thing... I was created by God but cannot believe in God. This is an interesting conundrum.

When I was 10 I had never been to Church and I was sent to stay with my Pentecostal Grandma for a week. Unbeknownst to me, she had registered me in vacation bible school. She gave me a red letter bible (bad choice for an impressionable young boy who is going to a Pentecostal bible school!). The first day I showed up and only knew of Jesus is this white man with long hair who looked a bit like my hippy uncle in a picture on my Grandma's wall. I was mocked for all of the questions I asked. Luckily (or unluckily) I was a voracious reader at that age and read many parts of the bible. By the middle of the week they were teaching me things that did not seem to match the teachings of Jesus or at least seemed to emphasize parts of the bible that were out of line with those red letter bits (I can't remember which...). I tended to ask about that.... Seeing people speaking in tongues was also quite scary for me.

I got yelled at for my questions like I was mocking Christianity... which added to the confusion. But this is not why I can't believe, I really wanted to!

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Oh one can't talk about the experience of the supernatural without coming off as a nutter, it just doesn't seem be credible, but that's the nature of it - it defies disbelief.

Well... I come off as a complete nutter just because I have predictable scientific theories that are not mainstream, lol!

 

[unperson]

Yo.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

As an Atheist I strongly agree with #1, I guess you could call me a Christian Atheist or Cultural Christian.

I have come to believe that religions are operating systems like Windows or Android for civilization. I came to realize this when I became active in the Atheist/Skeptical community. I noticed how many avowed Atheists were more like religious zealots than most religious fanatics. They didn't have a name for their religion but it's basically Social Justice/PC/Progressive/Wokeness. Basically, Critical Theory that is coming out of the universities is their religion. The problem with this new religion is that it hates Western Civilization, wants to destroy it, and doesn't understand the concept of forgiveness and redemption. If this religion takes root in our society (it's already infected much of it), it will bring it down.

Man... don't even mention QAnon! That belief is downright nuts. Oh wait... I am not being PC when I say that.

Also the belief that Western civilization is a real thing! It really isn't. Race isn't either. I have goldfinches that come to my backyard that are more genetically diverse than the human species.

"Woke" is not a belief in the way I am talking about beliefs... in fact I am not clear what "woke" is except either an epithet about people who accept the experiences of people not like them or people who accept the experiences of people not like them. I am sure we should disavow any "woke" NTs who try to understand the experience of those on the spectrum.

Social Justice... hmmm what is that? I thought it was simply a belief that people should not have injustices committed against them because they are not from communities that can prevent that injustice. Like autistic children... It would be horrible for them to be treated like human beings, not people to ignore.

PC... I am not sure what is meant by that... you mean not saying things that are not mindful of people who have different experiences from you? In that case my Vietnamese wife is not PC because she makes lots of snide comments about whiteys (like the woman that told her to go back home where she came from... That woman was just a patriot! who says it like it is! good thing she wasn't PC!)

It is interesting how we want people to treat us with respect and then get all huffy when we are asked to treat others with respect. Not very respectful is it

There are silly people who think too much of themselves in every segment of the population and every political persuasion. Ideas are much more nuanced and interesting.

Anyway... I am talking about a reality based on probabilities not absolutes. As I said before... the word is not very accurate (has too many meanings).

 

[William Weiler]

I don't think I can talk about this. I seem to offend everyone at some point. When I was 7yrs I tried to imagine the Universe as infinite and became overwhelmed. I got a conviction something must understand it, so since then I have believed. Belief is the operative word here. It is not fact. I can show you my cell phone, I can't show you my God. I can however, show you the effect on my mood and outlook. Which is what faith is really for. I believe (there is that word again) that because as humans we are aware of our death, it creates a fear that is resolved by a worldview/religion (all the trouble we are in now). Either we evolved faith, or maybe hijacked the spiritual feeling of being in nature, or maybe awe (starry night), and amped it up with religion and concepts of God. The peace of mind and calm of being spiritual (humanism, any religion really, Yoga, mediation) are critical to a happy life. Atheists can fall in the trap of just hating hypocrisy, or reducing quality of life by believing themselves more rational. We are not rational, we are emotional creatures. Try and do calculus when you are depressed, or get off the couch when feeling hopeless. I am kind of afraid I am going to get blasted now. Maybe take this as my opinion and not facts, which is accurate.

 

[John M]

I think supernatural experiences are just the conscious mind briefly experiencing something that's typically the domain of the unconscious but for whatever reason the conscious mind gets a brief glimpse of it. For example, I witness what I suspect is memory consolidation or the generalizations my brain makes about what it experiences. The images appear in the same visual plane as that of an after-image of a bright light source (light bulb, candle flame) when you stare at it and suddenly turn off/extinguish the light. The images track with eye movements and are 2-dimensional like said after image. Unlike the after image however they have a transparency. This transparency will begin to disappear the longer I focus and the closer I get to sleep. So, if I stare at cute cat photos on the internet for an hour or so I'll see the generalizations my brain makes about cats. I wouldn't be surprised if the human brain consolidates all memory as visual images, even experiences that aren't visual. I see colors and geometric shapes as well but I can't make inferences to what those are like I can with visual stimuli. Could be sound, feelings, etc. I have no clue.

If I enter a REM state while focusing on consolidation images then I'll begin a dream at the last image I was focused on and it becomes three-dimensional. Likewise, if I wake from a lucid dream the last image or scene I viewed will become two-dimensional and transparent then shift into memory consolidation.

Memory consolidation is constant. However, it is also thankfully photosensitive. I can still barely make out a few colors in bright light but that's about it. I've noticed the images where much sharper when I was younger. I suspect this is a mix of both physiological changes to the brain that occur as one ages and simply not seeing as much 'new' stuff. Most of what I see daily has been consolidated many, many times before. Intuitively you might think that driving at night would be difficult with all that memory consolidation going on but it's not. If it occurred in three-dimensions then yes but since it's two-dimensional my brain just ignores it like the glasses I wear and focuses on the environment.

I began witnessing memory consolidation around the age of five. Of course I had no idea what it was at the time. It became a form of play that my parents couldn't catch me at like they would if I smuggled toys into bed. Now that I'm older I don't know that I have much practical use for it to be honest. If I were artistically inclined it would be easy to use memory consolidation as a kind of muse. There are several famous painters that I suspect did this very thing.

There's nothing supernatural to it. My perception is that all the sensory issues aspies experience are part of a normal functioning brain, but don't belong in the domain of the conscious mind. Essentially, I see Asperger's syndrome as a kind of partitioning issue. The human brain is modular in nature and for whatever reason my brain didn't partition itself like a typical brain would. I've actually built a crude profile for the unconscious mind based on personal experience and what I've observed in this forum.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

I don't think I can talk about this. I seem to offend everyone at some point.

Thank you!
I think that was well written and well explained! You certainly did not offend me at all

 

[Ursus Chainus]

I think supernatural experiences are just the conscious mind briefly experiencing something that's typically the domain of the unconscious but for whatever reason the conscious mind gets a brief glimpse of it. For example, I witness what I suspect is memory consolidation or the generalizations my brain makes about what it experiences. ...
There's nothing supernatural to it. My perception is that all the sensory issues aspies experience are part of a normal functioning brain, but don't belong in the domain of the conscious mind. Essentially, I see Asperger's syndrome as a kind of partitioning issue. The human brain is modular in nature and for whatever reason my brain didn't partition itself like a typical brain would. I've actually built a crude profile for the unconscious mind based on personal experience and what I've observed in this forum.

Interesting!

I agree that "NTs" have all of the sensory issues... but they are not issues for them. Why?

Human brains run culture:

ADDers can learn human culture but do not have the "machinery" to run human culture (this happens in the pre-frontal cortex primarily).

ASD people have the "machinery" to run culture but do not have the "machinery" to learn it (early pruning of mirror neurons is one way)

The machinery running culture is highly attuned to sensory input... visual cues, voice intonation and touch.
It has nothing to do in the ASD person except get overwhelmed because there is no cultural order to these inputs.

I am extreme ADD + Extreme ASD (without the ADD... I would probably be non-verbal). So... I have neither the machinery to learn culture OR to process it. This is why I cannot believe. Culture is abstract and is built by beliefs... and none of that works in my brain. It is also why my sensory issues are very different than many aspies (they are primarily a fear of my senses being blocked.... I am more animal than human). My meltdowns are always about emotional overload as I cannot escape emotions through abstraction, culture or a belief system.