Too skeptical by nature?

[142857]

I was just thinking about all of the things I am skeptical about.

I accept the possibility that there may be parallel universes, but in the absence of real evidence for those I presume that they do not exist.

I accept the possibility that God exists, be He a person or not. But, in the absence of real evidence one way or the other, I presume that He does not exist.

I accept the possibility that other intelligent life forms exist in the universe. But if there were a trillion Earth-like planets in the universe capable of supporting intelligent life.... how do I know whether the odds of intelligent life evolving are 1 in a hundred or 1 in a billion or 1 in 10 trillion? In the absence of real evidence (apart from all the trailer park residents who have been anally probed in the name of alien research) I presume that life exists only on Earth.

And so yesterday I was thinking about it. What is the end result of all of my skepticism? That the universe simply sprang into existence without purpose or intelligent design. That by pure coincidence this universe contained planets capable of supporting life. That life somehow sprang into existence, through what means nobody really knows, and evolved into a form of life that considers itself intelligent (us) and aware of its place in this universe. That this brief flash of intelligent life, having existed in some form for (at most) a few million years, will likely snuff itself out before long and there will simply be nobody to know or care that we ever existed at all. Nobody left to care about where the universe came from, whether it will end with a bang or a whimper, nothing. And that seemed like the most far-fetched assumption of all.

I'm skeptical by nature, no point in trying to be or pretend to be something that I am not. But I'm kind of glad that we are in the minority. The world would be pretty drab, and the human race wouldn't get very far, if everyone were as skeptical as me.

 

[Calvert]

 I can be skeptical sometimes in general, I suppose it's better that way than to dive straight in and take a side or whatever. I would be skeptical about some of the things you have mentioned in your post. 

 

[Emor]

Sometimes I'm sceptical about the most basic things like what I perceive and how people perceive me. For a couple months of my life I was a solipisist and seriously believed everything I perceived wasn't reality and eventually only snapped out of it because I concluded being aware of what I considered reality not being reality most likely doesn't increase the chances of me suddenly entering the assumed actual reality. I also read Decartes' First Meditations on Philosophy and noticed there was no real justification for such a theory(it contradicts more than the bible), but to be fair the whole thing started off because I had it justified in my head.
Now there's periods where I feel inferior to everyone and that my entire comprehension of the world and how it works is completely wrong, and the compliments on my intelligence and when people treat me somewhat nicely are actually really complex forms of patronisation that I don't have the self-awareness to comprehend.
In terms of less subjective stuff like God and such then it is a matter of empirical evidence, which it lacks. I know the former examples sort of prove at times I just believe what I want(well, I don't want to believe that the last 15 years of my life have been a delusion, but there's no rational reasoning to support that idea[it was more the lack of rational reasoning or certainty to indicate the opposing though]). I think it's fair to say though that relativism has no effect on my conclusions and views though.
I'm also a moral sceptic(despite me insisting some things are wrong I do know that there's no way of knowing if it is, though I do have some basic principles and think I'm capable of empirically measuring the consequences of such actions etc. etc.- though I probably shouldn't comment on complex things like abortion and take sides) but it's hard to function and have a social life. Practically I'm probably a moral relativist, but when it comes to simply asking my self what's right and wrong for a while I've thought right and wrong were ******** and it was just a way for people to force their opinions on you.
TBH I think I'm just weird when it comes to beliefs and stuff. For some really ****ed up reason I condescend over every other human being that doesn't think like me and think they're the ones no enlightened and it takes me a while to step back and look at the entire picture and see which human here is the one who functions in society, who's happy, etc.- though this just tends to lead me to resent the entire human race, as stupid and close minded as it sounds.
Sorry for a long post lol.
EMZ=]

 

[Sipe]

I always have and still are kinda skeptical.

I think there is no such a god where Christians believes in but I do believe that there is other lifeforms somewhere in the universe. Think about it; As far as we know, space is endless. If space is endless and earth has life on it then it`s only logical that there is other lifeforms somewhere else in the space. How could Earth be the only planet with life in that case? But they are so far away that we humans won`t ever ever get in contact with them. That`s what I believe.

George Carlin was the first person who has influenced to my skepticism. I think he said this quote:

"Instead of teaching children to read we should teach them to question everything they read."


I think I have become more skeptical since I started to practice Buddhism because one of the most important teachings of Buddha is:

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

 

[142857]

(1) ...As far as we know, space is endless....

(2) I think I have become more skeptical since I started to practice Buddhism because one of the most important teachings of Buddha is:

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

(1) Space may or may not be infinite. It seems that the jury is out.
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=170056
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/universe_soccer_031008.html
http://www.hawking.org.uk/index.php/lectures/62

(2) I love that quote. It is almost like Buddha is an Aspie (I'm not saying that he was, let's not get into that). Buddhism, if it actually were a religion like many think, would be my favourite religion.

 

[142857]

 I can be skeptical sometimes in general, I suppose it's better that way than to dive straight in and take a side or whatever. I would be skeptical about some of the things you have mentioned in your post. 

That is fine, everyone is skeptical in their own way. The way my brain is set up I cannot genuinely take a "leap of faith", even if I want to. I've had people try to convert me to various religions when I identified myself as Agnostic... but I've found that there is always a "leap of faith" somewhere along the line, despite what they tell you in the beginning. A point where you must simply trust that something is true.

I find the idea of God fascinating and I find belief systems fascinating. I worded it badly when I said ".... in the absence of evidence I presume that He does not exist". I typed that without really thinking it through, I really should have said "in the absence of evidence for the existence or non-existence of God/aliens/etc I take a position of non-belief. In that I simply do not believe one way or the other". How is that?

After all, presuming that God does not exist is not a skeptical position at all.

 

[Emor]

After all, presuming that God does not exist is not a skeptical position at all.

I think it can be rational because living under the assumption he may exist can drive you crazy.
I can understand why homosexuals and stuff would choose to live under the assumption he doesn't exist.
Though for trivial reasons, I agree that there is no evidence for the existence of God than there is for the lack of.
IDK if you were saying it's a bad thing to have an almost irrational certainty that he doesn't exist, but I think for some people they're almost forced to be certain he doesn't exist because the possibility of him existing is too much.
EMZ=]

 

[Calvert]

In my opinion, there's no concrete evidence to prove anyone's theory of how the world really started and will end, so keeping this in mind, people should be allowed to believe what they want until such evidence presents itself.

With regards to God, yes part of me feels that he exists while the other part questions if it's realistically possible. Having said that, I question whether anyone's theory (religion XYZ or science theory XYZ) is realistically possible since there is no solid evidence so support either one imo.   

So yes, I am skeptical about some things.

 

[Emor]

Religious views require faith to believe them. Faith is defined by believing in something despite any evidence or evidence that indicates the contrary.
Scientific views have actual foundations other than contradicting 2,000 year old texts that are extremely juvenile, and if you don't believe them it's down to either an inability to comprehend the foundations, or the foundations have proven errors(and intelligent design 'errors'[basically not being able to comprehend the complexity of foundations] and the 'errors' religious people insist science have aren't what I'm talking about).
I can understand positions like Deism, Agnosticism and theism(if you believe in the Juedo-Christian God[the way he/she/it's portrayed in the Bible] I'd think anyone would be sickened by the fact they're created by something so ****ed up) but the adoption of any Juedo-Christian dogma I just do _not_ understand.
I mean, if one were to actually read the Bible, the actual principles it has and says it's readers should follow are basic stuff, and frankly, don't take account the situations and are just arrogant absolute statements(stealing can be totally justifiable in my opinion- and that's what ethics is ultimately, just opinions) at times, and it goes against these basic principles consistently because of people being gentiles and ****. I mean, it just really isn't something you go to moral guidance.
I'm not going to apologise- it pisses me off that people seriously think it's okay to follow a dogma dependent on the Bible which condones rape, genocide, woman oppression, etc.
And why you'd identify yourself as Christian simply because you believe in a deity and the afterlife idk. Well, conformity.
But, why society doesn't expose Christianity for what it is irritates me.
EMZ.

 

[Calvert]

I'm not going to apologise- it pisses me off that people seriously think it's okay to follow a dogma dependent on the Bible which condones rape, genocide, woman oppression, etc.
And why you'd identify yourself as Christian simply because you believe in a deity and the afterlife idk. Well, conformity.

EMZ.

I'm not aware the Bible condones such things, if it does then surely there would be no women Christians. I am aware the Bible has contradictions though.


What should I identify myself as then?

 

[Emor]

LOL.LOL.LOL.LOL.LOL.LOL.
Dude, if Christians read the ****ing bible there'd be no Christians.
And it does. Jesus you have too much faith in the human race.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_bibl.htm
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090427165946AAQNGDt
http://atheisthaven.blogspot.com/2008/03/misogyny-bible.html
****ing hell it doesn't take a genius to Google.
Urgh it pisses me off people don't pay attention to this **** and use stupid arguments like that.
****ing centuries of misogyny and persecution towards non-christians and 'ooohhhh! no woman would be christian if der were woman opressss' DUDE. Get ****ing real.
EMZ.

 

[Calvert]

Umm... I was only asking a simple question.   :blink:

What I don't get is that there are people I know - good people, male and female - who actually read and study the Bible and I can't see them believing in it if the Bible says those things. So yeah, I don't get it. All I was ever taught from a child was that the Bible promotes good things like not killing, not stealing etc, etc but now I am starting to question it. So there's no need to go OTT.

Again, all I was asking was a question on what I should identify myself as if not Christian. You're the Atheist - not me - so maybe you could explain what it's all about. 

 

[Emor]

Umm... I was only asking a simple question.   :blink:
Making arrogant statements. Btw, just thought I'd say, all black people are murderers. But don't worry, it's just a statement! Ugh, don't be offended!
What I don't get is that there are people I know - good people, male and female No such thing - who actually read and study the Bible and I can't see them believing in it if the Bible says those things.Then they're acting like religion is pick and mix which is another thing I can't stand. Oh, the infallible pope commits crimes against humanity, but oh well, the homosexual discriminating salvation army helps homeless people... sometimes as long as they meet a bunch of idiotic criteria. So yeah, I don't get it.I'm genuinely shocked. All I was ever taught from a child was that the Bible promotes good things like not killing, not stealing etc, etcI was taught a fat guy dressed in red came down the chimney and left me presents. Turns out it was a giant conspiracy created by society. Life's a *****. People lie to children all the time. but now I am starting to question it. So there's no need to go OTT.Again, black people murder people.
Again, all I was asking was a question on what I should identify myself as if not Christian. You're the Atheist - not me - so maybe you could explain what it's all about. Oh Calvert you're oh so innocent if only I wasn't so arrogant to not be able to see your position. And I am but you seem to have a hissy fit every time I try to explain to you basic ****.

EMZ.

 

[Calvert]

Why are you doing this? I am not having a hissy fit about anything. 

I have been skeptical about the Bible now for some time and it becoming more and more clear that it is not for me. A forum is a place for discussion, that's what I am trying to have instead of being told to google everything. I wasn't aware that the Bible said such things as I was never told and didn't have any reason to look for something that I didn't know was there. Yes, I have always been skeptical about the things like walking on water and stuff, for the record. I only know of Christianity so looks like i'll have to google the others to find out what to identify as.


BTW I am not offended about the links you posted, just confused as to why you have to say things like "****ing hell it doesn't take a genius to Google." and "Get ****ing real".  What's the point in a forum if you have to google every question that you ask? Are we not allowed to discuss and get other members views/answers/experience or w.e.? 

 

[142857]

I think it can be rational because living under the assumption he may exist can drive you crazy.
I can understand why homosexuals and stuff would choose to live under the assumption he doesn't exist.

I went to a Catholic school. Most of the Christian brothers and priests were homosexuals, and a significant percentage just at my school turned out to be paedophiles (it all blew up a few years after I left). But they still managed to be all "holier than thou". They just had a funny way of "spreading God's love". Christianity has basically evolved from a doomsday cult, at least according to my understanding. I'm not meaning to disrespect anyone's beliefs, apologies if I do. I attended a "course" once many years ago where they were going to prove the truth of the bible. Some guy stood up the front and pointed out some consistent themes in the bible, like how God was referred to as "the light" in both the first and last books of the bible. And that because Sodom and Gomorrah and some other places assumed to be myth and analogy had been found and identified by archaeologists, therefore everything in the bible was true. Then they tried to make me convert.

I usually take the position now of believing in the non-existence of God if the subject ever comes up. Explaining some kind of intellectual skepticism is too difficult and 99% of people don't "get it" anyway. It also gives me the freedom to be argumentative and mocking towards people who insist on trying to shove their belief systems down my throat.

 

[142857]

I have always been skeptical about the things like walking on water and stuff, for the record.

I never really got this sort of sketicism. Maybe being raised Catholic has something to do with it.

We were always taught that Jesus was part of the Holy Trinity (Father, Son and "Holy Ghost" - that is what we called the Holy Spirit in the olden days). The idea being that there was only one God but that he was able to simultaneously exist in those three forms.

Therefore Jesus WAS God and therefore he created the universe from... nothing.

I always thought that it was weird for people to believe that God was able to create the universe from nothing, be everywhere at once, and create all of the laws of physics and create mankind in His own image and listen to each one of the prayers of billions of people. But that He couldn't walk on water or come back from the dead. If He really is omnipotent and omnipresent then He can do anything He pleases.

Have a look at wikipedia to get a start on selecting what you identify as. I was just now having a look here and found out that I am a "Practical Atheist". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

This one is probably a better starting point for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God

I also found this very interesting, and it is written by an Anglican (like yourself). Actually it is one of the most intelligent things I've ever read on the subject, from any point of view:
http://www.templeton.org/belief/essays/ward.pdf

I honestly think that if you are interested in this stuff then you should start a thread and call it something like "Calvert's search for a belief system". I reckon that could become one of the most interesting threads ever.

 

[Emor]

Why are you doing this? I am not having a hissy fit about anything. 

I have been skeptical about the Bible now for some time and it becoming more and more clear that it is not for me. A forum is a place for discussion, that's what I am trying to have instead of being told to google everything. I wasn't aware that the Bible said such things as I was never told and didn't have any reason to look for something that I didn't know was there. Yes, I have always been skeptical about the things like walking on water and stuff, for the record. I only know of Christianity so looks like i'll have to google the others to find out what to identify as.


BTW I am not offended about the links you posted, just confused as to why you have to say things like "****ing hell it doesn't take a genius to Google." and "Get ****ing real".  What's the point in a forum if you have to google every question that you ask? Are we not allowed to discuss and get other members views/answers/experience or w.e.? 

I'm just pissed off you're even trying to argue when you clearly can't be bothered to go out and do your own damn research, and then end up getting offended when people say you're wrong or make idiotic statements like 'there'd be no woman who christians if christianity didn't oppress woman'.
If I went on here and started making stupid statements with no foundations, which can be offensive, then I'd expect to be flamed and refuted.
And it's just being lazy Calvert. It takes you like 2 seconds to Google a question. It takes me like 10 minutes to write up a post. Do the math. And I don't even want to know your views now. Every time you do express them it just pisses me off.
EMZ.

 

[142857]

Well, I've been doing some googling and found it enlightening.

Here you might find some very like-minded people discussing belief in God but not in Religion:
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/184271

 

[Calvert]

I'm just pissed off you're even trying to argue when you clearly can't be bothered to go out and do your own damn research, and then end up getting offended when people say you're wrong or make idiotic statements like 'there'd be no woman who christians if christianity didn't oppress woman'.
If I went on here and started making stupid statements with no foundations, which can be offensive, then I'd expect to be flamed and refuted.
And it's just being lazy Calvert. It takes you like 2 seconds to Google a question. It takes me like 10 minutes to write up a post. Do the math. And I don't even want to know your views now. Every time you do express them it just pisses me off.
EMZ.

I'm going to say this once and once only. I am not offended, I am not taking a hissy fit, I am not feeling threatened, I am not arguing. In fact i'm not even debating - I am simply discussing. Allow me to make an analogy:

You are looking to join a club. There are two clubs to choose from but you can only join one.

Club A is excited about the fact you could potentially become a new member. They welcome you with open arms, give you a book to read and provide plenty of literature. They are more than happy to take your questions. You end your visit with Club A with a positive experience and proceed to check out Club B.

Upon arriving at Club B, you start asking questions to a member of Club B to find out more about them. Instead of receiving answers, you get told to **** off and ask someone else. You are expected to know everything there is to know about Club B despite it being your first visit. Furthermore, you are also expected to have known about Club A's bad reputation. Club A never told you of their bad reputation, for obvious reasons.

Based on the above experiences, which would you be more inclined to join or even stay with?

/analogy end.

I could ask a priest about Atheism but I doubt that would be beneficial to me. :lol:  I could easily do a google search and get a brief definition. I could spend hours doing proper research on the likes of Wikipedia, or I could simply ask someone who is already an Atheist. That way I would get an answer to my question and also get a discussion going which in turn keeps the forums active. If you don't want to help me and rather I remained a Christian then fair enough. I can't get blamed for at least trying.

there'd be no woman who christians if christianity didn't oppress woman'

That is not what I said. You put the word "didn't" in there - not me. I am saying that if Christianity says those bad things about women then I cannot understand why there are still women Christians. 


Like I said at the start, I am not angry with you, offended nor am I even arguing/debating. I am simply having a discussion which is relevant to the thread.    < This smiley proves it.

 

[Calvert]

I never really got this sort of sketicism. Maybe being raised Catholic has something to do with it.

We were always taught that Jesus was part of the Holy Trinity (Father, Son and "Holy Ghost" - that is what we called the Holy Spirit in the olden days). The idea being that there was only one God but that he was able to simultaneously exist in those three forms.

Therefore Jesus WAS God and therefore he created the universe from... nothing.

I always thought that it was weird for people to believe that God was able to create the universe from nothing, be everywhere at once, and create all of the laws of physics and create mankind in His own image and listen to each one of the prayers of billions of people. But that He couldn't walk on water or come back from the dead. If He really is omnipotent and omnipresent then He can do anything He pleases.

Have a look at wikipedia to get a start on selecting what you identify as. I was just now having a look here and found out that I am a "Practical Atheist". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

This one is probably a better starting point for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia....xistence_of_God

I also found this very interesting, and it is written by an Anglican (like yourself). Actually it is one of the most intelligent things I've ever read on the subject, from any point of view:
http://www.templeton...essays/ward.pdf

I honestly think that if you are interested in this stuff then you should start a thread and call it something like "Calvert's search for a belief system". I reckon that could become one of the most interesting threads ever.

Well, I suppose I was trying to say that I don't believe in religion 100%. Like I previously stated I am sitting on the fence with it. I am now aware that there are contradictions in the Bible from watching a YouTube video on it (guess how I found that?). It is also apparent to me now that the Bible says a lot of bad stuff about women - despite this there are still many women Christians who read their Bible which seems odd. Maybe they skipped a few hundred pages?


Myself, I don't read the Bible other than when I was in Sunday School and Church. For the record, I haven't been to either in many years and during this time my skepticism about religion in general has grown (no surprises there). I know some will think "oh typical Christian doesn't read his Bible". Well, I don't read any books full stop as you know from the thread on reading magazines in General Discussion. However, people like my Granddad (who is a retired minister / senior figure in the Protestant church) study the Bible day in and day out. As does my Grandmother. If the Bible really says all of these bad things then I don't get why either of them would still believe in it. I find that they are good people, unlike many figures within the Catholic church. BTW I am not saying the Protestants are innocent or having a dig at anyone. 

Anyway, I suppose I am searching for a believe system like you said. I will check out those links when I get the chance. I will also consider making that thread sometime soon too. I wouldn't mind a thread about it - like you said it could become very interesting - providing it remained constructive.