The Pattern: ASD or/and ADHD with "Narcissists"

[Ursus Chainus]

Hi All,

In coming up with the theory of Functional Cognitive Typology which defines most things that people consider disorders as functionalities, there was a prediction that ADD/ADHD (~understanding driven) and often ASD (~extra-cultural) often form relationships with narcissists (~respect driven) people.

Almost all of my relationships, until I figured this out and what to do about it, were with respect driven men and women (mostly women). Some could have easily been diagnosed and others not so much. "The pattern" is stronger than sexual orientation in that I have known gay and lesbian couples that are in it. I have never met anyone like me (primarily ADD/ADHD (understanding driven)) who is not in the pattern. I can track the pattern all the way to my great grandparents and see it in my children.

It is important to note that the "disorders" mentioned here do not exactly map to the types as diagnosis is often a shot in the dark.

Respect driven is feeling pleasure when people look up to you.
Understanding driven is feeling pleasure when people understand you care.
Extra-Cultural is someone who did not learn the subtle communication of one's birth culture.

So who here has had repeated relationships with respect driven people (narcissist like) and has a parent and/or a sibling like this?

 

[Aspychata]

This is complicated for me. Not really driven, just like to exist in my channel on my universe. But because l generate interest, then l find people dictate how should l live my life. l prefer to live a sole existance with one or two friends.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

This is complicated for me. Not really driven, just like to exist in my channel on my universe. But because l generate interest, then l find people dictate how should l live my life. l prefer to live a sole existance with one or two friends.

I have my wife and one non-virtual male friend and one female connection. I still feel loved when any of these people know I care... I actually can be a bit over the top with the caring bit... I am working on that one right now.

My wife is an aspie from Vietnam, my male friend is an ADDer from Texas and my female connection is "one of me" (same make and model of brain) from the galaxy of 2-many-umlauts.

The dictators of life are often if not always respect driven...

I freaking hate being bossed! My wife doesn't boss me... but she certainly tells me what to do!

 

[Bolletje]

I have a pattern of forming relationships with very loving and caring people that are generally altruistic and try to help everyone. No narcissists in my daily life!

 

[unperson]

Having narc parent can predispose one to it.

 

[Fino]

Yes, I've always had that, to varying degrees. The most extreme was likely a narcissist but most of them were simply people who highly valued admiration to the point where it was their primary reason for interacting with me.

 

[Thinx]

Respect driven sounds more like the high powered type of narcissism, some are more low powered and come over as pathetic, this was their best strategy to gain attention in family of origin I guess. I m not expert on this, but my understanding of Narcissism is that it's a personality type developed in infancy and reflects an early stage of development where the child's needs were not met.

Narcissism in that way of thinking is hard to change, because the person has a world view whereby they have an idea that the world is all about them and their needs, natural in a baby but which normally we modify if our needs are adequately met at that stage. Then, where many with developmental issues would go to therapy or learn through later experience, this particular misapprehension leads to the person feeling it's not me it's everyone else, and continuing to try to meet their needs through getting positive feedback and attention, often called narcissistic supply.

I think my mum is in the low power version of this situation, they manipulate through distress and claim helplessness. She was a difficult parent due to this and has never really formed a 2 way relationship with me or my sibling, whilst expressing a wish that we were there for her more lifelong. One can't do enough for her, and help or connecting is critiqued and found wanting.

The high power type are more confident and their demand for respect can reach levels of aggression and dominance that are extremely abusive, at the extreme end I have seen this in people who abuse their children and partners, while keeping up a front of success and often of supposedly being a nice guy to the outside world that can be extremely hard to get around for the abused children or partner.

These people almost never seek help and if they do it's seemingly very hard for them to use help, because the existential childhood fear of not existing due to parental lack of ability or availability to attend to their early needs feels huge and continues to drive the narcissistic behaviour, as it does in the lower powered version. So they manipulate or spurn helpers, who they feel they cannot trust to offer them anything, and who offer insufficient narc supply.

I have had relationships with several low power narcissistic people, pulled in by the neediness which tugs at my own childhood wound, and left them eventually due to getting nothing back. I think my insight into that has changed my behaviour however, though I still seem more on the carer side of the relationship dynamic, typified in a Preoccupied adult attachment style.

After a lot of therapy, study, and life experience I am more able to notice this nowadays and move to a more secure win/win way of handling difficulties in relationships. But sometimes reacting initially from that place of childhood distress, to pacify or express helplessness.

Autism also feeds into this in various ways, but I would guess that some people with autism may also be narcissistic, and/or have an attachment style that is known as Dismissive, all of which can be worked on but their dismissal of others views or ability to help makes it unlikely they will change, just as narcissistic NTs rarely change.

Narcissistic autists are not only autistic, but are a product of their childhood experiences, some of which can be helped with if the helper both understands autism and in these situations, can engage with the dismissive or narcissistic person. It's hard to do on both sides, for NTs or NDs.

So I would say we generally may be prone to get relationships with people who are insecure and/or have personality disorders, partly because the dual barriers caused by autism and our own low security levels may leave us unlikely to attract secure people who generally have more choice. Specifically, we may be prone to make relationships through plunging in with people we don't know well, or who we feel are vulnerable, or to be dominated and chosen by someone in the high power narcissistic category. I agree, we can learn and move on from this.

 

[Aspychata]

Respect driven sounds more like the high powered type of narcissism, some are more low powered and come over as pathetic, this was their best strategy to gain attention in family of origin I guess. I m not expert on this, but my understanding of Narcissism is that it's a personality type developed in infancy and reflects an early stage of development where the child's needs were not met.

Narcissism in that way of thinking is hard to change, because the person has a world view whereby they have an idea that the world is all about them and their needs, natural in a baby but which normally we modify if our needs are adequately met at that stage. Then, where many with developmental issues would go to therapy or learn through later experience, this particular misapprehension leads to the person feeling it's not me it's everyone else, and continuing to try to meet their needs through getting positive feedback and attention, often called narcissistic supply.

I think my mum is in the low power version of this situation, they manipulate through distress and claim helplessness. She was a difficult parent due to this and has never really formed a 2 way relationship with me or my sibling, whilst expressing a wish that we were there for her more lifelong. One can't do enough for her, and help or connecting is critiqued and found wanting.

The high power type are more confident and their demand for respect can reach levels of aggression and dominance that are extremely abusive, at the extreme end I have seen this in people who abuse their children and partners, while keeping up a front of success and often of supposedly being a nice guy to the outside world that can be extremely hard to get around for the abused children or partner.

These people almost never seek help and if they do it's seemingly very hard for them to use help, because the existential childhood fear of not existing due to parental lack of ability or availability to attend to their early needs feels huge and continues to drive the narcissistic behaviour, as it does in the lower powered version. So they manipulate or spurn helpers, who they feel they cannot trust to offer them anything, and who offer insufficient narc supply.

I have had relationships with several low power narcissistic people, pulled in by the neediness which tugs at my own childhood wound, and left them eventually due to getting nothing back. I think my insight into that has changed my behaviour however, though I still seem more on the carer side of the relationship dynamic, typified in a Preoccupied adult attachment style.

After a lot of therapy, study, and life experience I am more able to notice this nowadays and move to a more secure win/win way of handling difficulties in relationships. But sometimes reacting initially from that place of childhood distress, to pacify or express helplessness.

Autism also feeds into this in various ways, but I would guess that some people with autism may also be narcissistic, and/or have an attachment style that is known as Dismissive, all of which can be worked on but their dismissal of others views or ability to help makes it unlikely they will change, just as narcissistic NTs rarely change.

Narcissistic autists are not only autistic, but are a product of their childhood experiences, some of which can be helped with if the helper both understands autism and in these situations, can engage with the dismissive or narcissistic person. It's hard to do on both sides, for NTs or NDs.

So I would say we generally may be prone to get relationships with people who are insecure and/or have personality disorders, partly because the dual barriers caused by autism and our own low security levels may leave us unlikely to attract secure people who generally have more choice. Specifically, we may be prone to make relationships through plunging in with people we don't know well, or who we feel are vulnerable, or to be dominated and chosen by someone in the high power narcissistic category. I agree, we can learn and move on from this.

This all made a lot of sense and l defintely will need to read it a couple more times. Thank you for this insight.☺

 

[Kit]

Since the word is in quotes, I assume you mean not a literal narcissist, just a word people throw around to describe jerks they were with.

My first one behaved like a sociopath, didn't want a job and would sit on his arse all day playing his online game and I was basically his provider. Reading The Sociopath Next Door kind of reminded me of him, someone who is a user. They have no regard to other peoples feelings so they mooch off others. Turns out he had negative symptoms of schizophrenia and I never knew about it and was undiagnosed.

The second one behaved as a narcissist and would fit the description of a covert narcissist. He acted very controlling and anything I did was never good enough and he would ignore me unless I acted mature enough for him under his eyes and anything about me was too immature like my emotions, my excitement, my smiles and laughs. He actually had BPD and they share the same symptoms and display narcissism. He was very clingy too and would split on me, acted like he hated me and then would act very loving towards me. I also felt like I had to walk on eggshells or else it was easy to get him upset and I had to bottle all my feelings up inside or he would get upset. He was very fragile. I also felt like I had such a bad memory I should start carrying a tape recorder and record all our conversations. I didn't know about gas lighting then.

 

[Aspychata]

My avoidant personality is more a result of a overly critical parent figure. I grew up feeling that my parents didn't talk much to me and when they did, there really wasn't any guidance. So l own my avoidant personality because l have taken care of myself through most of my life. Now l find a lot of predatory types at my age and my avoidant personality keeps me safe. I am extremely grateful for my avoidant personality. I have heard enough horror stories from other woman when l volunteered at a nonprofit woman's center, reading stories here, talking to woman in my jobs, and my own personal horror story. Celebrate what keeps you safe in life, and refuse the labels.

 

[SDRSpark]

This is me. My mother is just like me, for the most part, and married a narcissist (my father) who in turn primed me to continuously get involved with narcissists (in large part, I think, because I think that abuse and manipulation is "normal"). Combine that with being largely unable to comprehend peoples' motives when they're different from mine, and I've proven myself to be pretty vulnerable to abuse and manipulation by narcissists.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

This is me. My mother is just like me, for the most part, and married a narcissist (my father) who in turn primed me to continuously get involved with narcissists (in large part, I think, because I think that abuse and manipulation is "normal"). Combine that with being largely unable to comprehend peoples' motives when they're different from mine, and I've proven myself to be pretty vulnerable to abuse and manipulation by narcissists.

It may be priming... but I have seen this pattern everywhere. All great literature explores the pattern (Shakespeare has it all over the place). It also follows a gender pattern.

Respect driven is not narcissism. Some people who are respect driven will be diagnosed with NPD (< 2 or 3 % mostly male.) It is mostly subtle and what people might consider covert narcissism.

This diagram is a bit confusing but it goes like this:
If the mother is respect driven, the first born male will be respect driven and the first born female will be understanding driven, then it switches. The next born female would be respect driven and the second born male will be understanding driven. Then it switches back.
If the father is respect driven, the first born male will be understanding driven and the first born female will be respect driven then it switches. The second born male will be respect driven and the second born female will be understanding driven. Then it switches back.

The offspring in the pattern holds almost 90 percent with culturals and about 70 percent with Extra-culturals. There are some complexities here but this is generally what I have observed in the past 14 years since the pattern became clear.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Respect driven sounds more like the high powered type of narcissism, some are more low powered and come over as pathetic, this was their best strategy to gain attention in family of origin I guess. I m not expert on this, but my understanding of Narcissism is that it's a personality type developed in infancy and reflects an early stage of development where the child's needs were not met.

Narcissism in that way of thinking is hard to change, because the person has a world view whereby they have an idea that the world is all about them and their needs, natural in a baby but which normally we modify if our needs are adequately met at that stage. Then, where many with developmental issues would go to therapy or learn through later experience, this particular misapprehension leads to the person feeling it's not me it's everyone else, and continuing to try to meet their needs through getting positive feedback and attention, often called narcissistic supply.

I think my mum is in the low power version of this situation, they manipulate through distress and claim helplessness. She was a difficult parent due to this and has never really formed a 2 way relationship with me or my sibling, whilst expressing a wish that we were there for her more lifelong. One can't do enough for her, and help or connecting is critiqued and found wanting.

The high power type are more confident and their demand for respect can reach levels of aggression and dominance that are extremely abusive, at the extreme end I have seen this in people who abuse their children and partners, while keeping up a front of success and often of supposedly being a nice guy to the outside world that can be extremely hard to get around for the abused children or partner.

These people almost never seek help and if they do it's seemingly very hard for them to use help, because the existential childhood fear of not existing due to parental lack of ability or availability to attend to their early needs feels huge and continues to drive the narcissistic behaviour, as it does in the lower powered version. So they manipulate or spurn helpers, who they feel they cannot trust to offer them anything, and who offer insufficient narc supply.

I have had relationships with several low power narcissistic people, pulled in by the neediness which tugs at my own childhood wound, and left them eventually due to getting nothing back. I think my insight into that has changed my behaviour however, though I still seem more on the carer side of the relationship dynamic, typified in a Preoccupied adult attachment style.

After a lot of therapy, study, and life experience I am more able to notice this nowadays and move to a more secure win/win way of handling difficulties in relationships. But sometimes reacting initially from that place of childhood distress, to pacify or express helplessness.

Autism also feeds into this in various ways, but I would guess that some people with autism may also be narcissistic, and/or have an attachment style that is known as Dismissive, all of which can be worked on but their dismissal of others views or ability to help makes it unlikely they will change, just as narcissistic NTs rarely change.

Narcissistic autists are not only autistic, but are a product of their childhood experiences, some of which can be helped with if the helper both understands autism and in these situations, can engage with the dismissive or narcissistic person. It's hard to do on both sides, for NTs or NDs.

So I would say we generally may be prone to get relationships with people who are insecure and/or have personality disorders, partly because the dual barriers caused by autism and our own low security levels may leave us unlikely to attract secure people who generally have more choice. Specifically, we may be prone to make relationships through plunging in with people we don't know well, or who we feel are vulnerable, or to be dominated and chosen by someone in the high power narcissistic category. I agree, we can learn and move on from this.

Here is how I see it according to the Functional Cognitive Types (FCT)

I use a way of describing the types:
FCT (primarily diagnosed as)
Culture Types:
EC = extra-cultural (sometimes diagnosed as ASD)
C = Cultural (Considered NT here)

Drive Types:
U = Understanding Driven (sometimes diagnosed as ADD)
R= Respect Driven (very rarely diagnosed as NPD)
T = Trust Driven (very rarely diagnosed as STPD)
A = Acceptance Driven (In CA considered very NT here, Most ASD people are ECA)

FCT (Eusocial Type)
ECR* would be considered autistic narcissist (King, Queen, Leader)
CR* would be considered a typical narcissist (King, Queen, Leader)
CA* Neurotypical (Worker)
CU* Typical ADDer (Drone)
ECU* Primal Type almost pre cultural human
ECT* Extra-Cultural Guardian (Soldier)
ECA* Most aspie and asd people
... and on and on... there is also a secondary type of U and T in what I call the modern types A and R (ECRT* is sometimes diagnosed as a sociopath.... they feel respect when you trust them even when they lie... my dad was this type: CRTC)

not trying to be political here but DJT is CRTS

Finally there is a Somatic-Cerebral type.

S = Somatic = drawn to novel experiences that generate adrenaline
C = Cerebral = averse to novel experiences that generate adrenaline

Everything is on a continuum so I add a - or a + to show a rough idea of where a type lands on the continuum.
- = cusp (often between types)
+ = extreme
unsigned = middle of continuum. most common expression

The types are written like this:
1 2 3 4
Culture Type | Drive Type | Secondary Drive Type | Somatic-Cerebral Type

Examples:
1234
CAUS (Cultural acceptance with a secondary of understanding somatic)
This type (especially women) is more liberal than the baseline beliefs of their community.

124
ECUS
Extra-Cultural Understanding Driven Somatic.
ASD + ADHD

124
CUS
Cultural Understanding Somatic
ADHD person

ECTS
Extra-Cultural Trust Driven Somatic
(Primal Guardian)



My wife is ECUC+ (primal extreme cerebral which makes her asexual and way overly cautious)

I am EC+U+S- (what I call extreme primal cusp somatic, I have sensed 2 "of me (EC+U+*") here but I seem to be limited to seeing young women in my extreme type... (this is actually predicted in the pre cultural human mating and mentoring theories. also... U people can see R people of the same (birth) gender but not of the opposite (birth) gender... without training). If any of this makes sense to you and you feel you are EC+U+* or ECU Let me know

Anyway... disorders make little sense because they are so focused on the what and how. I focus on the why. In biology why is the first question we need to answer. Different species have different survival strategies. Humans have one similar to ants, bees and termites, so we have types.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

This is me. My mother is just like me, for the most part, and married a narcissist (my father) who in turn primed me to continuously get involved with narcissists (in large part, I think, because I think that abuse and manipulation is "normal"). Combine that with being largely unable to comprehend peoples' motives when they're different from mine, and I've proven myself to be pretty vulnerable to abuse and manipulation by narcissists.

You would be in the pattern but your offspring pattern does not hold which is more common in ECU (ASD +ADD). You are possibly one of my "primal sisters". Do you build your own reality through predictive theories?

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Since the word is in quotes, I assume you mean not a literal narcissist, just a word people throw around to describe jerks they were with.

My first one behaved like a sociopath, didn't want a job and would sit on his arse all day playing his online game and I was basically his provider. Reading The Sociopath Next Door kind of reminded me of him, someone who is a user. They have no regard to other peoples feelings so they mooch off others. Turns out he had negative symptoms of schizophrenia and I never knew about it and was undiagnosed.

The second one behaved as a narcissist and would fit the description of a covert narcissist. He acted very controlling and anything I did was never good enough and he would ignore me unless I acted mature enough for him under his eyes and anything about me was too immature like my emotions, my excitement, my smiles and laughs. He actually had BPD and they share the same symptoms and display narcissism. He was very clingy too and would split on me, acted like he hated me and then would act very loving towards me. I also felt like I had to walk on eggshells or else it was easy to get him upset and I had to bottle all my feelings up inside or he would get upset. He was very fragile. I also felt like I had such a bad memory I should start carrying a tape recorder and record all our conversations. I didn't know about gas lighting then.

You might be a primal sister too Narcissism is a disorder and I do not feel that disorders are real because they are unscientific. I call it respect driven... in dysfunctionality (using one on one interactions to get respect) they are more likely to get an NPD diagnosis.

I have had very similar relationships with women as you have had with men.

 

[Kit]

Some medical professionals also don't think personality disorder are real and they are just trauma based. Even those diagnosed with personality disorders who were abused as children feel like it's victim blaming when given such a diagnoses. I think it's because those disorders are stigmatized and they are often painted as villains. Sadly I can't help fight against the stereotype since my experience with my ex fits the stereotype and stigma. Asking the victim who has been hurt by one of these people to be more understanding is like telling a victim to be more understanding of their bully. They are not going to care if the bully was being abused at home and being a scapegoat in the family so they picked them as their target to blow off their steam and let out their feelings. No one gets to tell the victim how to feel about their enemy.

 

[unperson]

There's a 'danger to self or others' category in psychology and a lot of pds are in that category. Wrecking ball stuff.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Some medical professionals also don't think personality disorder are real and they are just trauma based. Even those diagnosed with personality disorders who were abused as children feel like it's victim blaming when given such a diagnoses. I think it's because those disorders are stigmatized and they are often painted as villains. Sadly I can't help fight against the stereotype since my experience with my ex fits the stereotype and stigma. Asking the victim who has been hurt by one of these people to be more understanding is like telling a victim to be more understanding of their bully. They are not going to care if the bully was being abused at home and being a scapegoat in the family so they picked them as their target to blow off their steam and let out their feelings. No one gets to tell the victim how to feel about their enemy.

I take it many steps further. I feel that we are in a pattern that was once functional in nature but is no longer. What we see as disorders are actually functionalities. I do not subscribe to the argument of nature vs nurture. They are part of the same thing. I do not feel that these things are trauma based although trauma can make these behaviors less functional.

Basically it goes like this:

I was pretty much tortured as a child. I was beaten and possibly raped (I have memory blocks but he ended up in jail for molestation of another child) by a 260 pound man when I was between the ages of 3 to 10. Pretty extreme stuff! Yet I am deeply caring and am afraid of hurting people.

The question is why did I not become a narcissist. When I was younger, a counselor told me for what I had been through he was surprised that I wasn't a narcissist.

So did that train me to be an abuser? No... I ended up in many relationships with women who were narcissistic even sociopathic... did I do this because of learned behavior? No... I am extremely confident and left those relationships once the abuse began.

So why did people who felt they could abuse me do so? They all had this excuse of their childhoods... well their childhoods were like going to Disneyland next to mine.

I feel that this pattern is highly dysfunctional now but it was part of the human survival strategy. I also feel that abuse is abuse. There is absolutely no excuse for it no matter what cognitive type a person is. We are all responsible for our actions. I do feel that if people on my side of this pattern can learn to see and understand people on the other side, we can avoid them and protect ourselves. Better to not get in to it with them in the first place.

For the people on the other side... knowing how they work might push them into more functional behaviors.

As far as stigma goes... I really think human culture is dysfunctional... stigma is one of those dysfunctional bits.

 

[Kit]

he question is why did I not become a narcissist. When I was younger, a counselor told me for what I had been through he was surprised that I wasn't a narcissist.

While most people with cluster B disorders had some sort of a bad childhood, not everyone with a bad childhood ends up with a personality disorder.

Most inmates in prison had bad childhoods but most people are not in prison so obviously not most people with bad childhoods grow up to be criminals and drug addicts and commit crimes for it.

It was even made a big deal in in the story about how Ted Bundy grew up to be a serial killer because he had a normal childhood and most serial killers had bad childhoods so he defied the statistics so that was why it was made into a big deal about his childhood. I can remember medical experts seemed confused about it when I was reading about him in high school. I guess that is why I find him so fascinating.

Look at Diane Downs for example, also had a bad childhood, her siblings had a bad childhood too with her and none of them but her grew up to have three personality disorders. She didn't get diagnosed until after she shot her kids.

I take it as everyone is different, not everyone is going to be a serial killer or be a narcissistic or a borderline or have C PTSD or PTSD, etc. Some just end up with anxiety which is why I say I see anxiety disorder as a symptom. But I do wonder why this is and what is the cause, I wonder if personality has to do with it and it affects how our minds develop based on the environment we grow up in.

I also feel that abuse is abuse. There is absolutely no excuse for it no matter what cognitive type a person is.

Also agree. I do not care if you are autistic or have borderline or have PTSD or whatsoever. I have seen people try to redefine the term abuse and say it can't be abuse because they were having a meltdown or that they didn't do it on purpose and their partner just needs to be more understanding. Even borderlines will try to say they are not abusers and say it's just a misconception but then they admit to doing all these abusive behaviors that we read about in BPD that are part of the diagnoses which totally contradicts their argument.

I remember reading a post by Sarah Burleton online about how she sees too many toxic people blaming their childhoods on their problems today than taking responsibility to be better people and be a survivor. Only thing I disagreed with about was when she tried to claim she doesn't blame her mom on her issues. She does have social issues because of her mom's abuse and she said she doesn't blame it on her. I know for a fact the abuse is what caused her to have issues today so she is now dealing with them and be a survivor and have a normal adulthood and be a good parent to her children and break the cycle of abuse.

There is a saying I have heard many times "It's an explanation, not an excuse."

 

[Jonn]

So who here has had repeated relationships with respect driven people (narcissist like) and has a parent and/or a sibling like this?

Not I, said the fly.