Sign language

[vergil96]

Did you learn sign language? What are your impressions?

It's so different in some ways, I find it surprising how it emphasizes showing emotions. I have found it teaches nonverbal communication. When I incorporate some of that in spoken conversations, I get a whole lot of positive responses and I heard I'm convincing, while usually I hear that I'm not convincing and that I don't seem like I *really* feel or mean what I say (frustrating). I didn't even know what I was missing. All advice I heard was "be more confident" or "just do more body language", but it's really bad advice, it doesn't explain anything at all. I guess I'm more autistic in communication than I realized. I think it also made me understand some things not directly related to sign language, but some things people do, I think I was missing out on silly expressions and/or what they were supposed to mean - funny.

Another thing I find surprising is how fast it is. Perhaps I'll just get used to it, but I'm very used to deflecting with "aha" and nodding, and it's a very new thing to respond on the go. That's perhaps also an aspect of nonverbal communication.

 

[jsilver256]

Ah, sign language.

I know it well. And yes facial expressions / grammar are a huge part of it. Facial expressions are my bane with it. Despite what classes teach you, it can be done without the proper expressions. You'd sound funky, like if you're speaking a tonal language like Chinese in monotone, but it's understandable.

The solution I've approached is like any other approach in autism. Adapt and adjust. What sign language excels at is visual descriptions.

Instead of, for instance, if you're describing a story of how you ate too much pizza.

A typical sign language conversation might make huge use of emotions and facial expressions to exaggerate these aspects:
you ate a HUUUUUGE pizza and SOOOOO full and you're WADDLING and SICK.

Instead, you can convey the same sentiment by factually describing:
- the size of pizza
- size of slices you normally eat
- the size of slices you ate and how many

It is not the "usual" style you see that other Deaf people speak in but it has the same impact. It's kind of the Deaf equivalent of deadpan humor.

There is no shame in asking others to slow down. Deaf people have to ask me to slow down because they have to wrap their minds around what I am communicating through sign language because it's not done in their usual style. And yes I have had to explain a few times that I am autistic and I sign differently.

 

[jsilver256]

Also, something to keep in mind so you get more comfortable with asking others to slow down.

Most deaf people grew up being forced to speak/listen, then embraced sign language. Sign language is not the native language for many.

They are quite used to being asked to slow down. It is not an inconvenience at all like it might be in other languages.

Comorbid conditions requiring slow signing are also quite common in the deaf community (vision problems, etc).

 

[FayetheAspie]

I learned a few words once but would not say that I actually know it.

 

[NDR2]

I’ve learned it. I know several signs, but not enough to be fluent in it. I do know the manual alphabet, so I can at least finger spell words.

 

[vergil96]

I can't fingerspell, not all letters. I began from a more practical angle. Other than fingerspelling, sign language seems rather intuitive and a some basic expressions have the possibility to be understood by anyone who doesn't know it in my opinion. I'm not aiming for fluency, just basic communication. I stopped around 100 signs or so rn, including the letters.

 

[vergil96]

Despite what classes teach you,

My local classes are online. If I ever decide to join, I hope they don't expect you to follow spoken instruction? Any voice calls are problematic enough for me that I have to ask for some kind of help with them if I happen to have online classes. Well, offline that's a problem too but it's easier to address.

 

[jsilver256]

My local classes are online. If I ever decide to join, I hope they don't expect you to follow spoken instruction? Any voice calls are problematic enough for me that I have to ask for some kind of help with them if I happen to have online classes. Well, offline that's a problem too but it's easier to address.

As with all things, passing an ASL class is different than communicating with ASL speakers in real life

It's probably helpful to force yourself through the nuances of facial grammer etc just so you have some idea intellectually what's it's like. But out in the real world, language is a tool for you to express yourself and you should be comfortable to adopt to whatever works for you.

 

[jsilver256]

I can't fingerspell, not all letters. I began from a more practical angle. Other than fingerspelling, sign language seems rather intuitive and a some basic expressions have the possibility to be understood by anyone who doesn't know it in my opinion. I'm not aiming for fluency, just basic communication. I stopped around 100 signs or so rn, including the letters.

That's great! Maybe it will end up being a more comfortable language for you. I have met plenty of people with varying degrees of hearing impairment who "converted" to ASL as their primary language because they got fed up with the hearing world.

 

[vergil96]

I have met plenty of people with varying degrees of hearing impairment who "converted" to ASL as their primary language because they got fed up with the hearing world.

Seriously? In which way are they fed up? You can actually do that? I mean, I can imagine that if someone can't hear and can lip read at most, it's frustrating.

I don't see it happening 100%, however, I relate to one deaf guy who I saw on youtube. He can hear to some degree and can speak, but he doesn't, he signs almost exclusively, because when he starts to talk back to someone, they assume he can hear and understand what they're saying. I thought it was just me doing that in front of strangers and I thought I was just faking it or cheating until I've found this video. When in a grocery store or somewhere like that someone tries to talk to me (and I notice, because I often don't and people start to gesture to me anyway) I point to my ear and don't speak. If I do, they speak back and I have to ask "excuse me, what did you say?" a hundred times and it gets extremely frustrating for us both. Somewhere quiet, hear fine. But there a lot of situations with a lot of background noise. Sometimes it's more convenient to sign. Anyway, I don't see it happening completely, but to some degree it is more comfortable and natural for me.

Sometimes I also can't speak, because I'm overstimulated or tired and my brain tilts about this skill specifically and a few others. Or in these situations I can try to speak and fail in one way or another, which isn't really favourable in terms of outcomes, other people get confused what is actually going on. It's a problem, but both writing and sign language bypass whatever the problem is. It's just closer to how my brain works. Perhaps the problem is lack of practice, I don't speak a whole lot to begin with, the difficulties with hearing for sure don't help.

 

[jsilver256]

he doesn't, he signs almost exclusively, because when he starts to talk back to someone, they assume he can hear and understand what they're saying

That answers your question.

Everyone does exactly that. It is the top reason why I have a very very strict policy on not "lipreading" or "speaking" even though I can lipread and speak a little bit. Every deaf person who decides to go "full deaf" for the lack of a better word does that for this reason.

Hearing people just don't accommodate unless forced to go through a sign language interpreter.

Sometimes I also can't speak, because I'm overstimulated or tired and my brain tilts about this skill specifically and a few others.

I have this exact problem and it's definitely easier to sign. In terms of difficulty: Speaking > Signing > Typing

 

[vergil96]

As with all things, passing an ASL class is different than communicating with ASL speakers in real life

Hmmm. So you don't recommend the practicality of classes?

I was told online that it's better to either seek out a class or engage with the deaf community locally, and there are no good materials otherwise. They also told me that sign language doesn't stick with most learners without it, because they don't practice, they missed the fact that I am getting the practice. No other people around who sign, but still.

It's probably helpful to force yourself through the nuances of facial grammer etc just so you have some idea intellectually what's it's like.

It's not a long topic, is it? People on youtube get rather creative with the facial expressions.

But out in the real world, language is a tool for you to express yourself and you should be comfortable to adopt to whatever works for you.

True. Point taken, it's a communication tool, not something with strict rules.

A typical sign language conversation might make huge use of emotions and facial expressions to exaggerate these aspects:
you ate a HUUUUUGE pizza and SOOOOO full and you're WADDLING and SICK.

I have not reached this level yet, but it sounds like I'd sign it more like you would simply because this is how I'd think about the situation, I don't use a lot of hyperboles. Good tip, thanks

And yes I have had to explain a few times that I am autistic and I sign differently.

I see, so the facial expressions can differ between autistic and non-autistic individuals.

Also, something to keep in mind so you get more comfortable with asking others to slow down.

Most deaf people grew up being forced to speak/listen, then embraced sign language. Sign language is not the native language for many.

They are quite used to being asked to slow down. It is not an inconvenience at all like it might be in other languages.

Comorbid conditions requiring slow signing are also quite common in the deaf community (vision problems, etc).

Interesting, I was convinced that sign lanuages are the first language for most deaf speakers (not family members etc.)

That answers your question.

Everyone does exactly that. It is the top reason why I have a very very strict policy on not "lipreading" or "speaking" even though I can lipread and speak a little bit. Every deaf person who decides to go "full deaf" for the lack of a better word does that for this reason.

Hearing people just don't accommodate unless forced to go through a sign language interpreter.

Makes sense. Yup, they don't accomodate, look like they fail to understand the problem.

I have this exact problem and it's definitely easier to sign. In terms of difficulty: Speaking > Signing > Typing

I yet have to check whther signing or typing is easier.

Or in these situations I can try to speak and fail in one way or another, which isn't really favourable in terms of outcomes, other people get confused what is actually going on.

Whether I'm intellectually disabled, have a stroke and need an ambulance, mentally ill (autism can make that impression if you don't make facial expressions and don't make eye contact, I certainly don't when I'm not feeling my best, bonus mental illness points if you stim, e.g. rock, rocking calms me down too - you get the picture). Do I understand the situation? To some people it looks like I don't respond at all, which is BS, but people just don't get autism. I'd rather not be forced to speak and fail, get stuck repeating the same phrase, poor pronunciation, poor grammar, poor wording. It's a whole situation I'd rather not get into just because of difficulties with speaking, not as severe of a problem as they think it is. Uhm, anyway, this is how I got diagnosed, more or less.

 

[Kayla55]

xys

 

[jsilver256]

I was told online that it's better to either seek out a class or engage with the deaf community locally, and there are no good materials otherwise. They also told me that sign language doesn't stick with most learners without it, because they don't practice, they missed the fact that I am getting the practice. No other people around who sign, but still.

English class can help you with building vocabulary, but it does not tell you everything about communicating with others. Sign language is the same way. I encourage you to keep up with classes. Just that if the classes over-emphasize facial expressions (as many do), it's on them, not on you.

All I am saying is, even if you can't master the facial expressions, you can still communicate fluently in sign language.

It's not a long topic, is it? People on youtube get rather creative with the facial expressions.

Yes and no. As you said, it is in many ways a very "intuitive" language. Signs will change their meaning depending on the facial expression and inflection.

Examples ->
"I was happy to see him"
"I was upset to see him"
"I saw him"

Can all be done with the same words, but facial expressions + inflection make the difference here. I can't do that very well. I just learned to adapt my signing.

Whether I'm intellectually disabled, have a stroke and need an ambulance, mentally ill (autism can make that impression if you don't make facial expressions and don't make eye contact, I certainly don't when I'm not feeling my best, bonus mental illness points if you stim, e.g. rock, rocking calms me down too - you get the picture). Do I understand the situation? To some people it looks like I don't respond at all, which is BS, but people just don't get autism. I'd rather not be forced to speak and fail, get stuck repeating the same phrase, poor pronunciation, poor grammar, poor wording. It's a whole situation I'd rather not get into just because of difficulties with speaking, not as severe of a problem as they think it is. Uhm, anyway, this is how I got diagnosed, more or less.

I have the same issues. It is probably a signal that you will have to adapt your own style of sign language, and give yourself some grace in the learning curve.

 

[vergil96]

English class can help you with building vocabulary, but it does not tell you everything about communicating with others. Sign language is the same way. I encourage you to keep up with classes. Just that if the classes over-emphasize facial expressions (as many do), it's on them, not on you.

All I am saying is, even if you can't master the facial expressions, you can still communicate fluently in sign language.

Okay, understood.

So take the course, don't stress about the facial expressions if it doesn't work out.

Examples ->
"I was happy to see him"
"I was upset to see him"
"I saw him"

Can all be done with the same words, but facial expressions + inflection make the difference here. I can't do that very well. I just learned to adapt my signing.

Ah, I see, so this is what you mean. That indeed requires coordination of the facial expression. I think I'm fine with a clear happy/sad/angry regardless of the situation, but more nuance might be a problem. But as you said, there are workarounds.

 

[Mary Terry]

My profoundly deaf sister learned to lipread and speak, starting at age 2 when her deafness was diagnosed. She was born deaf because our mother had Rubella when she was 3 months pregnant with my sister, before there was a vaccine for Rubella. Her deafness is due to trauma in utero and is not genetic. She didn't learn sign language until she went to college. Her husband and children have hearing, as does her family (including me) so her ability to communicate with all of us with spoken language is very important.

She has a wide circle of deaf friends with whom she signs. I see her as an ambassador between the hearing and non-hearing worlds. She can communicate with anyone. Her deaf friends enlist her to help them when they have to communicate with someone who does not sign. And most people do not know ASL. The local sheriff's office has contacted her in the past to help them communicate with a deaf person injured in a car wreck. She goes everywhere with great independence because she can do both.

The mask requirements during the Covid pandemic was really hard on her because she couldn't see people's lips.

I do a "pretend" style of signing with my sister's friends but have never learned ASL. They tease me about not knowing sign language which is fine with me. I laugh at myself. As a last resort, I'll type something on my cell phone and show it to them. It's slow but it is a way to communicate.

 

[vergil96]

My profoundly deaf sister learned to lipread and speak, starting at age 2 when her deafness was diagnosed.

It has to be very hard to solely rely on lipreading. I learnt it unconsciously, but more as a supplementary method, and I don't think I could lipread without sound at all. For me it's like the lipreading and bad quality sound together contain enough information or more than only sound and it helps, but lipreading alone, I find it very hard.

The mask requirements during the Covid pandemic was really hard on her because she couldn't see people's lips.

Masks certainly aren't helpful with it

She has a wide circle of deaf friends with whom she signs. I see her as an ambassador between the hearing and non-hearing worlds. She can communicate with anyone. Her deaf friends enlist her to help them when they have to communicate with someone who does not sign. And most people do not know ASL. The local sheriff's office has contacted her in the past to help them communicate with a deaf person injured in a car wreck. She goes everywhere with great independence because she can do both.

That is very versatile that she can communicate well in both ASL and with hearing English speakers. Best scenario

 

[vergil96]

That's great! Maybe it will end up being a more comfortable language for you. I have met plenty of people with varying degrees of hearing impairment who "converted" to ASL as their primary language because they got fed up with the hearing world.

That is unraveling in a different direction than I expected, indeed.

Yesterday alone I ended up signing multiple times. Simple things, but still. There was a mix of reasons that I already explained above.

Perhaps this is a topic for a therapy session that I feel like I need to justify myself to do what feels more comfortable, as if I'm taking away from someone else's suffering and need a very good reason. There is a whole topic in therapy that I think how I'm bothering others and disturbing them even if I'm about to collapse, what it seems like, how someone else might read what I'm doing, and I'm not helping myself.

My parents took a liking to gesturing everything. I mean, they picked it up and are having fun, especially my talkative mom, which I wouldn't suspect. It's a difficult relationship with my mom, we have opposite temperaments. It looks like I might have become a sociable person who knows how to joke all of a sudden if I don't have to be wordy to interact and come up with an idea and show it in some way instead. Or at least if I don't try to be grammatically correct an all that. It seems like there are a lot of preconceived notions how interactions between people are supposed to take place. I'm also not as nervous if I don't feel in a crunch that I absolutely have to 1. speak 2. in full correct sentences. We're learning it's okay for me not to talk all the time and that it doesn't have to mean not participating in the conversation.

 

[jsilver256]

Perhaps this is a topic for a therapy session that I feel like I need to justify myself to do what feels more comfortable, as if I'm taking away from someone else's suffering and need a very good reason. There is a whole topic in therapy that I think how I'm bothering others and disturbing them even if I'm about to collapse, what it seems like, how someone else might read what I'm doing, and I'm not helping myself.

I think how albeism treats different disabilities differently plays a big part in the popularity of sign language. For instance, nobody cares if someone has arthritis, but if someone happens to be in a wheelchair ... well, that's one of those disabilities that society teaches us to go out of our way to accommodate. It's similar with using sign language. The moment these hands fly up, people want to help.

It's not fair, but it's how society operates.

 

[vergil96]

I think how albeism treats different disabilities differently plays a big part in the popularity of sign language.

True. I went to the audiologist multiple times and the only options I was presented were hearing aids (which don't make sense with my particular problem), behavioural therapy and "just get over it/you're making it up". It's been like this with medical professionals not only with regard to hearing, I have faced this attitude multiple times and had to fight hard to get appropriate treatment. But back to hearing, the most emphasis was on behavioural therapy is "trying harder", that's really unhelpful. For example, I didn't get enough sleep during the past few days and I can't "try harder" any longer and all I'm left with is a really serious communication problem (if not for sign). There was no help offered, no workarounds, nothing, and conformity and being ashamed of disability were glorified as heroic and Right. Of course, I think tools such as hearing aid or speech therapy are useful tools to have in your box when deaf 100% or partially. But it might go the other way as well. If your hearing loss is mild (I used to have mild hearing loss in childhood and for an unknown reason it has vanished), it doesn't mean you don't need written instructions or other accomodations. Even with mild hearing loss there is a lot of not knowing what is going on too, it feels like being color blind, it makes it hard to notice some details that everyone sees (or they're blurry, not as sharp, unclear) and you get left out or might not be able to perceive something "obvious" at all, you might not be able to fully participate the same way as people without hearing loss. It might appear very minor on paper, but you no longer can participate the same way, the concept of "normal" amd "universal" communication is in fact very narrow. Maybe what I find that is missing in the approach I experienced was accomodations. I have found a free lip reading course online and I intend to take it in the near future as well. It is the vocal approach, but I have done some of it (it's in video form) and it has proven helpful so far. Unlike similar speech therapy that I had access to. The speech therapy entailed hearing to words with background noise and the difficulty increased, there was an instruction to focus on just one sound. I couldn't do it, I couldn't hear what the audiologist was so convinced that I can hear, but I'm not "focusing". Zero. Nothing there to focus on. Mush. Fine, the doctor can hear it, good for him, he should quit gaslighting. Neurology is "real" too. Anyway, lipreading isn't the most accomodating for a person with a degree of deafness, but it is still more accomodating the the speech therapy I mentioned and being told to toughen up and try harder, because lipreading relies on visual information.

Getting accomidated to maybe isn't what I was getting at woth sign language being more convenient, I was getting at the point that I think I'm becoming convinced that I find signing easier and more intuitive, but it is true too that if you don't use your voice, hearing people are much more likely to accommodate, go out of their way so that you understand them. Definitely.

Another thing I think about is that most people would be making a lot more fuss for a lack of a better term. You don't see/hear people casually mention that they can't speak for extended periods of time for whatever reason (mine is overstimulation) even on social media for autists. I feel like most people would freak our and make fuss (I don't like the negative connotation this phrase has, but I can't think of a better one) over somerhing like that, not quietly sit in the corner and accept blame for experienced ableism of the "you're not even trying" sort or "you are ignoring me and being rude". They'd do whatever they need to accomodate themselves, really. I see lots of people online who learn sign languages for much less urgent reasons than mine all the time. I see people IRL all the time being very assertive about their medical conditions or differences too.