Questions that try to reduce life

[Greening]

Through my life I have sometimes stumbled upon questions, that try to reduce life.
It often stems from the misunderstanding that we, as individuals, share the same
world view, faith, philosophy and whatnot. An assumption that is always wrong.
To try to unravel why such questions are annoying, confusing and, simply, wrong, it
makes sense to look at some of them specifically. One of them is this: What is the
meaning of life? THE meaning. As if there can only be one. This is one of the most
reductive questions I know. Completely at odds with the almost infinite amount of
life expressions there are. That question makes me think that the asker is too scared
of the mysteries in life. Mysteries that simply cannot be answered in any final way,
because life is ever-flowing.

At their worst such questions are formulated in a way, that makes it impossible to
have a free conversation. This happens, for instance, when some religious people
are preaching about "being humble", while extremely self-contradictory to that,
try to convince others, that they speak on behalf of some (almighty) god. There
is nothing humble about that. So whenever someone asks, whether you "believe
in God?", it is very important to question what the purpose of that questionn is.
I have often found that it is a trap, because it claims, that this god exists as the
whole foundation for an "answer" to it. And to me the whole idea of an almighty
god is a reduction of life in itself. The belief in an always abstract figure, that somehow
must be considered an almighty authority on everything. And, of course, a lot of
people, who claim to speak on behalf of such a non-existing deity, are really just
trying to claim the same power position. The position of being an oracle that cannot
and must not really be questioned. Which makes the old saying question authority
so much more relevant. Always.

To not give up, or hand over, one's authority over one's own life has maybe never
been more important than now. As Sainkho Namtchylak, one of the most amazing
singers, sings in a song: "You are the shaman of your life".

 

[jsilver256]

As you point out, it's almost impossible to answer this question without diving into religion, but I'll ask a slightly different question in turn to be thought-provoking. Something I think a lot of us can relate to with our special interests.

Do watches need their watchmaker who made them, or does the watchmaker need his watches?
Why?
What purpose do watches serve the watchmaker?

 

[marc_101]

@Greening

I thought that the well-established answer was 42, no?

Now, seriously, perhaps it's not an attempt to "reduce" life, but it's a natural question that comes from our natural drive to find meaning. Brains are meaning-making prediction machines.

I find discussions like that interesting, and often they end up being about the definition of words. If the question comes from a Christian, my answer is no, because their definition of god is more concrete, although I would need to ask how they define God. God as in the mysterious force that created the universe? Maybe... Or God as in Judaism? That has always been up to endless debates that are kind of entertaining. In Judaism, contrary to Christianity, "belief" is not an entry requirement. It's ok to not believe in God or argue with her/him/them/it.

Sometimes we get lost in words.

 

[Greening]

As you point out, it's almost impossible to answer this question without diving into religion, but I'll ask a slightly different question in turn to be thought-provoking. Something I think a lot of us can relate to with our special interests.

Do watches need their watchmaker who made them, or does the watchmaker need his watches?
Why?
What purpose do watches serve the watchmaker?

But "this question" is so often formulated in the wrong way. With an idea of, for instance, a monotheistic foundation for an answer. If I simply answer, completely truthfully, that I I do not believe in such a god, in any way, the whole question becomes irrelevant. It loses its purpose. And a deep purpose in my life has been to remove that influence of a power position, that others assume, they have. And this is done by questioning authority until they vanish.

To your questions about watchmakers and watches, I would say that they need each other, but without being humble about this relationship, it can be assumed, falsely, that this is a one-sided relationship. Which is the equivalent of a dictatorship. Something most people oppose, when they talk about it, but, for reasons unknown to me, make exceptions for, when the talk touches upon monotheism and the ideas of one god.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

My life has a lot of meaning and purpose to me, and not once, ever, did I look at it through the lens of God, theology, or any religion. The same goes for my wife and my children.

 

[Greening]

@Greening

I thought that the well-established answer was 42, no?

Now, seriously, perhaps it's not an attempt to "reduce" life, but it's a natural question that comes from our natural drive to find meaning. Brains are meaning-making prediction machines.

I find discussions like that interesting, and often they end up being about the definition of words. If the question comes from a Christian, my answer is no, because their definition of god is more concrete, although I would need to ask how they define God. God as in the mysterious force that created the universe? Maybe... Or God as in Judaism? That has always been up to endless debates that are kind of entertaining. In Judaism, contrary to Christianity, "belief" is not an entry requirement. It's ok to not believe in God or argue with her/him/them/it.

Sometimes we get lost in words.

I have never met a Christian, who could seriously look beyond Christianity. Often I have instead met Christians, who, very arrogantly, assume that we will all become Christian one day. And they have all been missionaries in their approach to talk about their one god, as if this non-existing deity should somehow be everyone else's. Or, in fact, that this god is all there ever is, will be and has been. Dogmatic thinking that always reduces life to being a servant of some unknown force, who "we" are supposed to never truly understand but apparently still obey. It makes absolutely no sense to me. Monotheism makes no sense to me, because it is such an opposite pole to life's infinite ways of expression. Nature is infinite. Monotheism is, and can only be, very transient. I hope that monotheism is a thing of the past in a not so distant future, because it has truly destroyed so much by provoking religious wars, destroying or almost destroying other cultures through terrible missionary work and so on. It is basically demonic work trying to make spiritual clones out of other people. Disrespectful and wrong.

Thankfully polytheism and pluralism are on their way back in many parts of the world. We need it as a mirror of a diverse, pluralistic world. Earth. The home we live on and is a part of.

 

[Outdated]

Have you ever had a look at any of the Australian Aboriginal belief systems? They were many different peoples with many different beliefs but they all had a few common threads running through them. None of them had a "god" as portrayed by modern religions.

There were many different beings involved in their creation beliefs but you don't pray to them or beg them for forgiveness or worship them in any way. You just step very lightly around them in the hope that they never reawaken.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I think I find meaning in life by more tangible things, usually by what I do for others. It could be working in a busy hospital saving the lives of sick infants, it could be teaching, it could be helping my co-workers, it could be doing yardwork for my elderly neighbors, being a good husband and father, etc.

 

[Forest Cat]

What purpose do watches serve the watchmaker?

Income? Making wathces and selling watches so you have money to buy food. Pretty much everything we do is about getting food and shelter.

 

[marc_101]

I have never met a Christian, who could seriously look beyond Christianity. Often I have instead met Christians, who, very arrogantly, assume that we will all become Christian one day. And they have all been missionaries in their approach to talk about their one god, as if this non-existing deity should somehow be everyone else's.

I think you need to meet more Christians.

 

[Greening]

I think you need to meet more Christians.

I really, really do not. No.

 

[marc_101]

I really, really do not. No.

Alright, joking aside, yes, you do. Your characterization of Christians is very narrow. I grew up in a Christian country even though I'm not Christian, and I can tell you for sure that your description does not fit most of the people I met.

I have many Christians friends here, too, and, again, your description does not fit most of the people I know.

Sure, your description fits a lot of people, especially those who are evangelists since that's what they do, they evangelize.

 

[The Pandector]

I find it fascinating how people judge God and the various misconceptions of him. Sad, but fascinating.

The one thing you simply cannot get around is this truth: if there really is an all-powerful creator-God, then he has authority over your life. If he exists as understood by, say, Christians, then what you think of him is laughable inconsequential. That a creature such as yourself would think themselves capable of understanding and judging an all-powerful creator-God is absolutely hilarious.

Ergo, it is essential to obliterate from our thought processes that such a God might be out there. Why, just the suggestion that such a God exists sends many a modern thinker to his safe space; how can we ever even consider the thought that our lives fall under the authority of someone we don’t know and don’t like?

We frequently hear in this forum such comments as, ‘I could never believe in a god who does/allows this/that’. What a hoot! As if such a god would be in any way limited by your understanding of him, or change his ways to gain your acceptance.

Rave on. You are either right or wrong.

 

[Greening]

I find it fascinating how people judge God and the various misconceptions of him. Sad, but fascinating.

The one thing you simply cannot get around is this truth: if there really is an all-powerful creator-God, then he has authority over your life. If he exists as understood by, say, Christians, then what you think of him is laughable inconsequential. That a creature such as yourself would think themselves capable of understanding and judging an all-powerful creator-God is absolutely hilarious.

Ergo, it is essential to obliterate from our thought processes that such a God might be out there. Why, just the suggestion that such a God exists sends many a modern thinker to his safe space; how can we ever even consider the thought that our lives fall under the authority of someone we don’t know and don’t like?

We frequently hear in this forum such comments as, ‘I could never believe in a god who does/allows this/that’. What a hoot! As if such a god would be in any way limited by your understanding of him, or change his ways to gain your acceptance.

Rave on. You are either right or wrong.

I don't believe, at all, in such a god, so I don't really care about such thoughts. I simply find them to be wrong. If someone comes up with some evidence, which should be rather obvious to find, if such an almighty being existed, then sure, I would change my mind. I find it fascinating, that people who claim it to be so, somehow can find the opposite claim to be the arrogant one. Not believing in an almighty god is not the equivalent of not being in awe of life, Earth, the universe. Not believing can simply mean to remove all kinds of human-made ideas, from which this template is made. "God" is a power position that cannot be argued against. No wonder so many try to claim, that they speak for "him". A him without a her is anyways a weird foundation for life. A her is certainly missing, but then again, Christianity has always been quite scared, condemning, oppressive of females. It is in that regard a very patriarchal religion. And a dying one, by the way. Thankfully.

 

[NB79]

I have never met a Christian, who could seriously look beyond Christianity. Often I have instead met Christians, who, very arrogantly, assume that we will all become Christian one day. And they have all been missionaries in their approach to talk about their one god, as if this non-existing deity should somehow be everyone else's. Or, in fact, that this god is all there ever is, will be and has been. Dogmatic thinking that always reduces life to being a servant of some unknown force, who "we" are supposed to never truly understand but apparently still obey. It makes absolutely no sense to me. Monotheism makes no sense to me, because it is such an opposite pole to life's infinite ways of expression. Nature is infinite. Monotheism is, and can only be, very transient. I hope that monotheism is a thing of the past in a not so distant future, because it has truly destroyed so much by provoking religious wars, destroying or almost destroying other cultures through terrible missionary work and so on. It is basically demonic work trying to make spiritual clones out of other people. Disrespectful and wrong.

Thankfully polytheism and pluralism are on their way back in many parts of the world. We need it as a mirror of a diverse, pluralistic world. Earth. The home we live on and is a part of.

Hi, that is your experience, mine is that God can not only be known, he can be close to us, for you is a 'non-existant' God, and you base all your logic in that 'fact' you have, but in my experience God can even interact with us because of what i have experienced..

 

[jsilver256]

A him without a her is anyways a weird foundation for life. A her is certainly missing...

FYI - in Christianity, there is no gender in heaven among either the humans or angels, and I assume it follows that the non-corporeal God has no gender either.

The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him a question, saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.’ Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother. So too the second and third, down to the seventh. After them all, the woman died. In the resurrection, therefore, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had her.”

But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

 

[Greening]

FYI - in Christianity, there is no gender in heaven among either the humans or angels, and I assume it follows that the non-corporeal God has no gender either.

"Our father, who art in heaven ....". Hm. I am not interested in Christianity. Maybe I should just add that for now, although I thought it was obvious.

 

[The Pandector]

I don't believe, at all, in such a god, so I don't really care about such thoughts. I simply find them to be wrong. If someone comes up with some evidence, which should be rather obvious to find, if such an almighty being existed, then sure, I would change my mind. I find it fascinating, that people who claim it to be so, somehow can find the opposite claim to be the arrogant one. Not believing in an almighty god is not the equivalent of not being in awe of life, Earth, the universe. Not believing can simply mean to remove all kinds of human-made ideas, from which this template is made. "God" is a power position that cannot be argued against. No wonder so many try to claim, that they speak for "him". A him without a her is anyways a weird foundation for life. A her is certainly missing, but then again, Christianity has always been quite scared, condemning, oppressive of females. It is in that regard a very patriarchal religion. And a dying one, by the way. Thankfully.

Sometimes yourself is the hardest person to listen to. It’s the vehemence - sometimes subtle, often not - that is the dead giveaway. Just an observation of mine, people who ‘don’t believe in God’ are so often the ones who just can’t let the thing go. Sometimes you’ll hear talk about ‘repressive’ religion and how it irritates them, when all they have to do is set it down and walk away. Often, these conversations will contain verbiage that is clearly hostile to religion and to God, so I find it fascinating that such hostility resides with claims of dispassionate disregard. Not really indicative of someone who simply doesn’t think about such things.

Maybe a good time to reconsider the whole point about the idea of an ultimately authoritative god being too much for some to handle.

 

[Greening]

I should have predicted that Christians would come and confirm what I wrote in the beginning. Oh well. No, I won't reconsider and think there is "something wrong with me because I don't believe in "God"", but I recognize exactly that from other conversations with Christians. Funny but sad experience here. I have nothing further to add here. Don't have time for preachers.

 

[The Pandector]

Hi, that is your experience, mine is that God can not only be known, he can be close to us, for you is a 'non-existant' God, and you base all your logic in that 'fact' you have, but in my experience God can even interact with us because of what i have experienced..

Right. The point that can’t be made to nonbelievers. Sending a preacher to a rock concert is like sending a rocker to a sound sermon; it simply isn’t what they’re listening for. Both will say they have heard nothing of value. Believers are in it for the rare exception, because some will meet God. Doesn’t everyone wish we knew which ones?