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Our condition DOES NOT give us license

Discussion in 'Friends, Family & Social Skills' started by Alaric593, Jun 23, 2022.

  1. Alaric593

    Alaric593 Active Member

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    My medical condition does not give me license to act however I want without consequence for it. We can not allow ourselves to believe we're helpless in this condition. That is a personal moral failing that is unacceptable and which we're morally obligated to take responsibility for before we point the finger at other people's moral failings.

    What I just told my wife.

    I am failing you and our family as your husband which is an entirely different moral problem to your moral failings. And I can't lead you to see the woman I know you are until I fix the disconnect between what I know to be proper behavior and my behavior.

    For this, I am sorry. And it will be fixed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
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  2. phantom

    phantom Well-Known Member

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    I am not morally obligated to do anything.
     
  3. Alaric593

    Alaric593 Active Member

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    Then you're a failure to yourself and can never be anything of Value to any other person. We all see your moral posturing around here. Stop being a degenerate and fix yourself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
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  4. Ovan

    Ovan New Member

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    Ironic given his profile picture. Quite a pitiful person.
     
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  5. phantom

    phantom Well-Known Member

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    No
     
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  6. Alaric593

    Alaric593 Active Member

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    You're pathetically wasting your life.
     
  7. SpiltPaint

    SpiltPaint Member

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    Why comment if you're not going to say anything constructive. Alaric is correct, it's not an excuse to do what you want and feel its justified because we have ASD.

    Being self aware, and holding yourself accountable is key for self growth. If you feel you're not morally obligated to do anything, then in the long run you'll be worse off, and likely end up being the person that blames everyone else but can't stand to look in the mirror.
     
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  8. Knower of nothing

    Knower of nothing Well-Known Member

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    I think my only issue is the arbitrary claim that you must take responsibility before you can point at others failing to do the same. I know where that logic is coming from, I don't believe it actually applies to reality.
    If you're not the greatest person, you can still demonize a murderer, to give an extreme example. In fact, please report crime when you see it, don't stop yourself because you haven't sorted yourself out. Don't accept the bad behavior of others towards yourself. Don't accept the bad behavior of others towards others. Call it out. It's easily worth being a hypocrite for. Once the finger gets pointed at you, just have the grace to accept it.
     
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  9. SpiltPaint

    SpiltPaint Member

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    I feel you're completely missing his point.

    I interpret this as, being self aware that you understand you can behave differently under different circumstances, and not in a positive way, often we can be reckless, unremorseful and impulsive. It may feel just and we're correct in doing so in the moment, but until you reflect on your behaviour and analyse the aftermath of effects on both yourself and others having an episode can cause.

    And that in essence summarises the point of his thread, being neurodiverse gives you no License to justify the way you act with zero consequences.

    Your perception of autism is vastly different to mine, you describe it as a debilitating disability (maybe you have other issues to, you didn't specify). My opinion is the complete opposite, yes autism can cause social difficulty, and can cause negative periods because we can get so fixated on 'what we think we know'. Autism on the other hand can also be a gift, being self aware of the pitfalls and learning how to harness it into progressive behaviour and not regressive behaviour is the key.
     
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  10. Crossbreed

    Crossbreed Neur-D Missionary ☝️ V.I.P Member

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    Our condition does not grant us license to flout clearly-defined ethics, but
    it often blinds us to extraneous social conventions.
     
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  11. Atrapa Almas

    Atrapa Almas 70% INTJ + 30% ASPIE = 100% HUMAN V.I.P Member

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    So I agree with this, but just a bit later...

    You insult someone who thinks differently without consecuence for it...

    And just later...

    Another one making fun of another human being, without any consecuence for it...

    Wow, and just a bit later...

    Bullying the same person, just to show by example how much do we act responsibly towards others...

    So what an interesting show of doing just the contrary of what we claim. Not that I agree with @phantom but I am not going to insult or bully him.

    Im not going to act however I want to him without consecuence for it...

    May you all have a nice day, by the way... :D
     
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  12. Stuttermabolur

    Stuttermabolur A psychologist said so

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    Perhaps insulting people is not the best way to convince them of your thinking.

    I do agree with @Alaric593 that autism is not a carte blanche or an excuse to behave like an ass on purpose. However, I also don't think you are going to be successful in dictating to others what their morals should be as ultimately it is up to each individual to decide for themselves. I personally like helping other people and making them feel better about themselves, but that is also because it makes me feel better as well, and I feel a sense of accomplishment when I do so.

    If another person genuinely doesn't care about being nice or helpful, and it really doesn't make them feel any better about themselves, then I really can't supply a reason for why they should behave in that way (except "because others will treat you better", but even that sounds nebulous). Perhaps religion would give a reason, but I'm an atheist so I can't really use that arguments with others.

    @Atrapa Almas already wrote pretty much what I wanted to say, but I've already written my comment, and it also responds more to the original idea.
     
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  13. Thinx

    Thinx Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Yes all our opinions are worth exploring, insults dont solve issues, and some here are young people, not yet adult, who are trying to work out how to manage their lives.

    I don't understand the assumption that moral obligations are 'dumb', myself. How do you mean? I probably live my whole life doing my best to have a morally based approach to others. It can be your own system, but without it, what's the point of us?

    Also, dismissing all ideas of morality as 'dumb' , as if you don't need to make any cogent arguments to say how you got there, isn't something most people would find persuasive. And perhaps it's worth not trying to do so? Given we do know our autism can make us a bit oblivious to some ideas and values. Caring about others is important, I would say.
     
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  14. Thinx

    Thinx Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Btw, in relation to the OP, I agree with that idea that we each do need to consider our own issues and work on them, it's so much more likely to lead to progress than mutual blaming, which is discouraging and evasive of our own need to step up and work on ourselves. I think this is what you meant, but then you got triggered a bit by a comment you found challenging?
     
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  15. Neonatal RRT

    Neonatal RRT Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Someone once said, "The only person who can make yourself happy,...is yourself. 90% of your happiness is created by yourself,...another person can either make you more, or less happy."

    @Aleric593 Having said this, your post suggests some degree of intelligent introspection. You recognize an issue within yourself that is affecting your relationship. The first step to solving any problem is recognizing the problem,...but looking at things more optimistically,...a problem is an opportunity to do something different and solve it.

    The condition of autism, in and of itself, does not inherently lead to moral failings. Morality and the associated value system will vary upon the culture and society you live in. Anyone can have moral failings. Recognizing your autism and how it may contribute to your moral failings is also an opportunity to improve.

    I have a hard time believing that any of us with autism do not eventually create intellectual "work arounds" that allow us to function within our society. We certainly discuss the topic of "masking" on here,...and masking, to some degree, is also utilizing our "work arounds" to act as if we do not have autism. For example, I have difficulties with "theory of mind",...perspective taking. So, interestingly, during conversation, I force myself to ask the appropriate questions from another person to gain their perspectives,...but in doing so,...I am having a conversation,...something that I also struggle with. Within this example, I've overcome two of the things that my autistic brain has difficulty with,...and the other person may not recognize my autism.

    The lack of perspective taking,...can lead to the types of thinking,...or not thinking,...that lead to moral failings.
     
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  16. WildCat

    WildCat V.I.P Member

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    Your condition doesn't give you or anyone else license to harass other members of this forum either. My profile picture should align with my attitude on this as well.
     
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  17. Gerald Wilgus

    Gerald Wilgus Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    So right! I see so much about people "being themselves" where they think it gives them license to behave poorly towards others. Being on the receiving end of such selfishness is no fun.
     
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  18. Neonatal RRT

    Neonatal RRT Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Agree. I am thinking people are getting confused with this concept or mantra of "be yourself". If, deep down, you are stressed and angry,...emotional,...that is one thing. It's easy within this context to not keep control,...then say and do things that make you come off like a jerk. I think we have all had these experiences. However, "be yourself" does not mean being self-centered, egotistical, and selfish to the point where you reject common social graces, do not express empathy, and do not consider or reject another's perspectives. "Be yourself" is more of an expression of allowing your creative thoughts, your personality, your identity to be projected...in a positive manner,...and with some degree of pride,...despite the fact that some people may express some degree of "uncomfortableness" with you being "neurodivergent". To be clear,...you can "be yourself" and still be a decent, thoughtful, empathetic, generous, loving, and socially responsible and respectful person.
     
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  19. phantom

    phantom Well-Known Member

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    I assume you are responding to the message i deleted, i misunderstood what exactly the point of the thread was. From what i understand hes trying to say: If you have autism you cannot believe that you are helpless in the condition, because if you do that would be immoral.

    Helpless in what? And immoral to whom? Immoral to myself wouldn't make much sense, the word only has meaning in social contexts. Is the premise that feeling helpless would lead to negatively affecting other people in undeserving way? Why would that be a general rule? Is the conclusion don't justify treating others badly because you have feel helpless about your autism? I don't think anyone really believes that and it's not characteristic of hfa/aspergers.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
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  20. Magna

    Magna Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    I agree that autism/Aspergers doesn't give a person license to be intentionally uncivil, hurtful, etc. I would argue that the vast majority of autistic people are not inherently hurtful people, however. This brings us to: Intent.

    Autistic people are often known to ask direct questions and to ask questions about things that NTs typically don't ask about. If the autistic person intends no harm and no offense but ends up offending anyway, sorry, but that's different than saying something with the goal of offending or hurting someone.

    Here are a few questions off the top of my head that illustrate my point:

    • To a co-worker or boss: "When are you going to retire?" Imagine the person asking has no ill intent and does not have any underlying reason such as "When are we going to be rid of you?"
    • "Why do you wear that perfume?" Imagine the person asking has acute sensitivity to fragrances. Imagine that person genuinely wanting to know why the other person wears the perfume if it has such a strong fragrance. It's ok for NTs to talk about what upsets or offends them at will, but not autistics?
    • Being asked if you want to hear the retelling of some seemingly innocuous event the other person experienced and you say: "No. That doesn't interest me at all and frankly I find it disturbing on many levels."
    ^None of those examples involve the autistic person intending on hurting the other person's feelings. The examples above are different than a person saying something like: "I hate you and I hope you die penniless." < That kind of statement directed toward anyone involves intent to hurt the person's feelings. It's knowingly unkind.

    It all comes down to intent. Otherwise should autistic people only speak when spoken to? Should autistic people always ask to be told what to say and what not to say as dictated solely be NT conventions, preferences, behaviors, etc? The world is made up of many different kinds of people.

    In a world that's increasingly accepting of and tolerant of fractionally small groups, it's interesting to me that there's still such an opposition by the many to be more aware of the difference in being direct (and not be offended by it) and being intentionally hurtful.
     
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