Opinions on school?

[ospie1322]

I was wondering what people thought about the US school system. Is it good? Is it bad? What needs to stay? What needs to be changed?

 

[ospie1322]

Bump.

 

[Soup]

Hi ospie!

I'm in Canada so the US school system is something I studied a little but I've never experienced directly. I know that the quality of American public schools varies enormously depending upon the revenues of the communities they're located in. Some of these look like prisons whereas others are really well equipped & pleasant.

What made you bring up this topic? Do you have some thoughts on the USA school system?

 

[ospie1322]

Yes, I do. I believe that the school system is not good at all. I also believe that children and teens are equipped with the tools to educate themselves, known as "unschooling." People such as John Taylor Gatto have written books and essays about it.

 

[Soup]

Sounds a little like what Rousseau said. Please tell me more. When you say educate themselves, what do you mean: as in teach themselves something like reading or algebra? Do you mean kids working alone, with other kids or with an adult acting more as a facilitator than a traditional teacher?

 

[ospie1322]

I mean kids working alone, using things like a computor or a library. I think that the curiostity in young children is dampered by school, and if we stop or extremely reform the school system, this curiosity would stay for someone's whole life.

 

[Geordie]

Hey Ospie.

I studied in another country other than the US for the longest time I'd ever known.

However, regarding the United States, I am sure it is really good mostly.

American schools are really great. Because many of them give all students access to opportunities, that few other countries give. There is an Aspie I know, who studied in America throughout High School, and he did one year of college in United States. He enjoyed his time in the United States. With accommodations he and his school made that are not available in our local schools in Singapore, he did exceedingly well in studies, and was an honors student in school. He went on to do college before coming back to Singapore with his parents. He can't find similar opportunities to engage in what he loves in Singapore, while the education and work systems in America and Singapore are incompatible, so he is currently undergoing vocational training in my local autism centre (where I currently volunteer in).

I also think that had I been a student in America, given my decent grades in Singapore even without much accommodations, I can get into a decent college and I can reasonably do well in any chosen major I choose to do. And I'll definitely have a driving license, more so if I am based in Texas. In Texas, it is clear to me that if you break into the top 8% or so and complete the course requirements, you can get both a driving license, a high school certificate, and admission to the University of Texas-Austin upon submission of SAT/ACT scores to UT.

However, I do not think the American education system is really perfect. It shows a few features I do not quite like.

First of all, very much like Singapore's education system, entry to a college is mostly based on standardized testing. SAT, ACT, sometimes AP. So I can envision this: even after years and years of studying a subject, the charting of progress in school is based on the results of a certain paper. The autonomy of teaching and learning is lost, the teacher may be less able to interact with the students based on collective personal and societal experiences in the class.

Which means, Aspie students may not be able to contribute much to the class, through bringing to the class his views on subjects, so that the rest of the class gets to understand unique ideas based on passionate interest and commitment to learn the subjects well.

Secondly, vocational programmes in America is scant. Everyone in America, to my impression, is supposed to go to America. In Singapore, the consensus in students in the autism center (actually, an autism school) is, if you can't make it to the University (restricted to the top 30% of the Singapore cohort), you should go to vocational institutes. Singaporean politicians also recently start to steer students to do technical and vocational courses, reinforced by increasing investments in technical institutes in Singapore.

America? Yes, there is all the talk on technology and science... So? Most people aren't interested in 2 to 4 more years of stuff that is not relevant to the workplace. In addition, it seems to me that there is a strong push to all students to get into college - where more than 40% or so of students, who started college, eventually drop out.

Study: Nearly Half Of America's College Students Drop Out Before Receiving A Degree | ThinkProgress

Thirdly, there could a monopolistic structure in America schools, as there is no real competition in American schools. This sounds American, but it does happen in America. Because of current regulations in most school boards, teacher unions could hold far too much power to decide policy, instead of students, parents and communities. It appears to me that in America, teachers seldom get sacked for poor performance, school funding is still equal (and increased per student) even for under-performing schools which do not do real teaching, and there isn't much differentiation between schools that can be presented to prospective parents and students as choices. They do not seem to happen in Malaysia, Singapore and India from my personally observations.

Aspies could suffer even more. A publicly-funded school for people with Autism may not even happen in America, like they do in Singapore. Schools are designed to be the same as each other so as to breed homogeneity and hence, the same old educational ineffectiveness to understand the world better could most likely continue.

America could make do with more competition within public schools to provide an equal access of quality education to all students. In addition, most schools could do more to focus on really linking the student to his (or her) future place in society individually, regardless of his conditions, talents or gifts.

Otherwise, American schools are mostly doing decently.

 

[Spinning Compass]

It's been a while since I was in school and I don't have any children of my own so what I hear about school is second-hand. First of all, it does depend on the community. It also depends on what part of the country you live in. I have been told that schools in the southern part of the United States do not have the same academic standards as schools in other parts and that a student who is doing fantastic work in a Florida school may find that he or she is hopelessly floundering in an Illinois school for example.

What I have seen, based on my work with a local scholarship committee, is that there has been a steady dumbing-down of standards. We get scholarship applications that are incompletely filled out, essays that are poorly written--and these are the most motivated of the bunch. We have people graduating from high school who can barely read and write and are ill-equipped to get any but the most menial jobs. I've heard from parents that apparently the trend now is to give all students high marks for just attending or turning in a paper, that we can't have anyone stand out academically because that would make others feel bad. Great preparation for the work world I say. Some of these students are going to have a very rude awakening. Then you have people fighting over the curriculum itself. Don't teach this. Don't teach that.

My opinion of American primary and secondary education is that it is based on an obsolete model and must change to reflect today's realities. I think that is one reason why students are often not motivated. Add to that mix a growing number of students with special needs and the tendency to mainstream them all whether that is appropriate or not for that particular student or group of students. When you have an individual continually having meltdowns in a classroom that negatively impacts all students not just the one with special needs. It also does not endear the student with special needs to the rest of the community. Some of these students need intensive help that they are just not going to get in an overcrowded classroom with a teacher who is not equipped to deal with that situation.

I don't know what the answer is to fix American education but I think it is clear by now that the one size fits all approach does not work. We also do not need people experimenting with schools who have spent their entire lives in academia and have very little clue as to what is needed out in the "real" world. Math is a prime example. When I was young, it was "new math." Suddenly my parents couldn't help me anymore because what they were taught was obsolete and I could not explain to them why. I still don't understand what was wrong with the old way. Since then I have heard of "new new math" and "Chicago math" and all other kinds of trendy nonsense. Maybe some kids learn better with "new math." I wasn't one of them. But what difference does it make as long as the answer comes out correctly?

Schools as currently set up are like assembly lines. There's just too many students for each to get individual attention.

 

[Loomis]

I agree with the other posters. The U.S. primary and secondary schools are highly variable since for the most part they are dependent on local taxation. So wealthier communities vote for higher taxes.

On the other hand the U.S. Research Universities are still the best in the world. I have noticed however that many of the State Universities like the University of Minnesota for example are declining in quality because their funding is being reduced. This is extremely short sighted but for the last ten years Minnesota, one of the more progressive States, has been steadily providing less and less tax dollars to its University system. The University in turn is forced to raise tuition and pay less competitive salaries to its professors. This is sad and stupid.

 

[Geordie]

I choose to think current e-learning through YouTube and resources on the Net as an education opportunity. In the context of work experience, so long as there is adequate high-quality supportive learning resources over the Net, like they do in the United Kingdom with the Open University and the University of London International Programmes, we can have the highest quality of instruction coupled with the lowest cost to educate an enlightened population.

Unfortunately, few American schools leverage on this new possibility, if any.

 

[Loomis]

I choose to think current e-learning through YouTube and resources on the Net as an education opportunity. In the context of work experience, so long as there is adequate high-quality supportive learning resources over the Net, like they do in the United Kingdom with the Open University and the University of London International Programmes, we can have the highest quality of instruction coupled with the lowest cost to educate an enlightened population.

Unfortunately, few American schools leverage on this new possibility, if any.

You are right, few do. But the schools in wealthy communities are amazing. Mostly the schools are funded by local property taxes. When you have excellent schools for children it maintains property values because families want to live there. The more million dollar homes the better and even the people who hate taxes will vote more money for schools because it is in their best interest. So if you can find a way to get into the right school district there is no limit to the options provided. Oh and if you are in a poor run-down community, sorry too bad.

 

[Geordie]

I think many educational leaders really want to improve access to quality education in poor communities. After all, they have a different culture from us. They may not see the point in investing in education, when they have other concerns.

Teach For America may have sent some high-quality teachers to poor communities, but they may be more interested to network with each other, than to really do any teaching.

Maybe a Federal solution is needed. Some states could do ok with State efforts, given a relatively stable tax base, like Illinois or New York. Some, however, may be too broke to put top teachers in place and implement State education reforms, like (to my impression) Michigan or Louisiana.

I think the Department of Education should match top suburban schools with the worst-performing poor schools, in the same city/state, and be under best management practices with useful local customisation. As an extrinsic motivation, an award should be given to the best partner school, which has most drastically improved the performance of both the top schools and the poorer-performing schools together, by various indices.

 

[RubenX]

There's a gazillion things wrong. I could probably write a book... let me tell you about the ones in "special education" which hurt Aspies/Autistic kids the most.

The Special Diploma

You can go to school and take the standardized tests and work towards a Regular High School Diploma. With this you get accepted in college or go in the army or get a job. But if you are in special education you are probably working towards a "Special High School Diploma". This diploma is *NOT* accepted by any college institution, military branch or place of employment. Sounds scary? It gets better... because you do have a "diploma", the state denies you the opportunity to take any remedial curses/exams to obtain a regular diploma. You are effectively stuck in life.

Schools get funds according to Average grade of students

But this average grade, can be manipulated. See, the grades of students on the Special Diploma program don't count towards the School's grade. If a kid is a "C" grade student, the school is better off placing this kid on Special Education because it hurts their funding. And those kids already on Special ED? School will try to teach them as little as possible to keep them there.

Social Security SSI promotes keeping Aspies/Austistic kids *UNEDUCATED*

When your son is on special ed, the Social Security system send parents a check for $740 US Dollars every month. If you work with your son to get him up to speed, out of the "Special Diploma" and into the "Regular Diploma" program, you will loose that income.

 

[Soup]

There seems to be a frightening lack of compassion in the USA towards, the poor or people perceived to have disabilities. The system conspires not to advance them but to keep them in their place & even provide them with incentives to remain there! Kids in the poorest school districts will always have the lowest grades due to the complex effects of poverty, family crisis, poor nutrition,lousy schools that are poorly equipped & that have the worst teachers.

Another problem is even programmes that bring better teachers to these districts, few are motivated to remain in such neighbourhoods where you're risking your neck every time you go to work & leave to go home. Who wants to travel through a dangerous gang-ridden area for little pay & with no security?

 

[Geordie]

As a foreigner who is interested in teaching, and truly making a difference to other people's lives, I'm interested to move to the States and teach in urban schools.

I don't think, however, current immigration laws legislated or put in place to allow immigrants to come into urban schools and teach. The urban school districts may even have restrictive policies that employ teachers from their own state or district. I think the teachers in such districts may just want to get by every day doing nothing, more concerned with school board politics than their own teaching:

Joel Klein vs. New York City teachers : The New Yorker

I just wonder how can school systems produce our next generation of leaders and thinkers, with a system that is dysfunctional that promotes even more comformity to the whims and fancies of the times. Some things don't change, like love, passion and care for others, but current educational models may stray further from these timeless values.

I could be wrong, though.

 

[Simply a Bibliophile]

Now you've gotten me a bit fired up. This could go on a while. Education is one of my auxiliary obsessions.

The education system is the US is broken beyond belief, and I mean beyond belief.

Firstly, No Child Left Behind has made an absolutely grand old mess of things. It's caused standards to fail, dropouts to increase, and for schools to put greater emphasis on English and Math than the no-less-important Sciences, Arts, and Humanities in general. States will lower their standards in order to make is easier for school districts to be considered "proficient" so that the state can get federal funding. The dropout rates among minorities increase because if a student scores low and brings the average score for their minority down, they'll be held back! Then they may choose to drop out because they've been discouraged from the start. In my own state, 43% of new seniors are slated to receive a "certificate of completion" instead of a diploma because of how they've scored on these ridiculous tests, which only test math and English proficiency and completely disregard how students have been doing in science and the humanities.

Extracurriculars are being cut, despite how they've shown to improve test scores (since that's what seems to be important), lower teen pregnancy rates, lower dropout rates, and lead to more well-rounded individuals. Being active is a big part of being healthy, and if that doesn't start in schools, where does it start? Same with music, drawing, painting, and any electives that you can care to mention.

While it's fantastic that the education in this country is free, it's certainly not all equal. From birth, low income kids are marked as lower-achieving and signed off as never being able to improve or become high-achievers. So much is documented in Waiting for Superman. So why is it that because I come from a decent income, middle class family, I get a better education than the kids who really need it to drag their families out of low income, crime ridden neighborhoods? I'm not saying my education shouldn't be good, but theirs should be just as good.

 

[Grubby]

The school system really sucks. Everyone there seems miserable, like they are in prison.

It's not conducive to learning when everyone is bitter and angry. And even worse it associates learning with pain for the rest of a person's life. Learning should be an enriching experience, not some draconian punishment.

 

[Soup]

Many people within the school system are miserable & very frustrated: beginning with over-worked & underpaid teachers who are forced to work countless hours after school, before school & on weekends without pay.

I don't think that everyone is bitter & angry (as a pervasive mental state) all the time, though. Many kids are & the economic melt-down that the kids had no role in or power over has wreaked havoc in many of their lives.

I agree that learning should e an enriching experience & ought to be maximized for each student considering his learning style & needs. One size fits all education fits few indeed! What positive changes would you implement, Grubby?

 

[the-commander]

i think i and many other kids would probably be better off in a stricter education setting. that said i got an education and i was a ****ing nightmare most of the time.

There's a gazillion things wrong. I could probably write a book... let me tell you about the ones in "special education" which hurt Aspies/Autistic kids the most.

The Special Diploma

You can go to school and take the standardized tests and work towards a Regular High School Diploma. With this you get accepted in college or go in the army or get a job. But if you are in special education you are probably working towards a "Special High School Diploma". This diploma is *NOT* accepted by any college institution, military branch or place of employment. Sounds scary? It gets better... because you do have a "diploma", the state denies you the opportunity to take any remedial curses/exams to obtain a regular diploma. You are effectively stuck in life.

Schools get funds according to Average grade of students

But this average grade, can be manipulated. See, the grades of students on the Special Diploma program don't count towards the School's grade. If a kid is a "C" grade student, the school is better off placing this kid on Special Education because it hurts their funding. And those kids already on Special ED? School will try to teach them as little as possible to keep them there.

Social Security SSI promotes keeping Aspies/Austistic kids *UNEDUCATED*

When your son is on special ed, the Social Security system send parents a check for $740 US Dollars every month. If you work with your son to get him up to speed, out of the "Special Diploma" and into the "Regular Diploma" program, you will loose that income.

if you graduate while at normal school even if you spent some of high school in sped you still get a normal deploma right?
personally, i think i would have benefited from a stricter inviroment as a child.

 

[AsheSkyler]

I was definitely miserable and frustrated in school. It DID feel like prison and my family wasn't allowed to come to school outside of the designated times like drop off, pick up, or dumb functions. I felt cut off and trapped most of the time. My second grade teacher was good, but I don't remember much about my first grade or kindergartener teachers except one had a pet snake. My third grade teacher made us watch movies all the time so she could stay involved with highschool cheerleading and math was only taught when were bad so as to punish us. My mom talked to the other parents and found out she and one other tenured teacher were the two you did not want your kids to have because they adamantly refused to do their job. I was to have the other one next year. The board/staff/whoever refused to let me transfer to a better teacher, so I was homeschooled. At least my teacher agreed that homeschooling would be a good move since normal school was too boring for me and I needed something much more challenging. Heck, I was already getting up at six in the morning and being gone until 3:30pm in the afternoon and then my homework lasted from 5pm to 11pm most nights because Mom was already having to teach me herself anyway! Twelve hours a day, five days a week is entirely too much to put on a kid. Thank goodness it got cut down to 4-6 hours total per day for me to do all my assignments and homework when Mom took over. My covering used the ACT instead of the SAT since both are accepted by colleges, and required a minimum score of 15 to graduate. I got a 21 and was allowed to graduate a year early. Can't do that in normal school!

I still have a bitter opinion toward public school. Here's my three things that I'd change:
- I'd start be getting rid of tenure. You suck, you're fired. Case closed.
- Each grade could use three tiers and hopefully everybody would have enough sense not to see it as punishment or an insult or "holding back the childrens!". The kids that need extra help go to the level 1 tier. The "normal" kids go to the level 2 tier. And the ones who need something challenging go to the third tier. Each would be worked and not judged harshly or held to ridiculous expectations. (Like saying the L1s could only be fast food workers and the L3 were never allowed to work fast food. Let everybody chase their own dreams.) I've heard some schools already have that grade tier system, but it wasn't present when I went. The most we had was a kid or two pulled out of class for "speech therapy".
- I'd probably get rid of tests and go by homework and assignment scores. Some kids know the material but can't take tests and some kids don't know the material but can pass a test. Tests are not a very good measure of knowledge. My college teachers had the same number of students to deal with as my grade school teachers with shorter time spent with us and they knew who did their work and who cheated. I know a grade school teacher could tell the difference too.

I don't think, however, current immigration laws legislated or put in place to allow immigrants to come into urban schools and teach. The urban school districts may even have restrictive policies that employ teachers from their own state or district.

Heh, that sounds like America to let an immigrant have any job but the education of minors. One of my college teachers was from Iraq. Never would have guessed from her accent because she learned to speak English either in Turkey or a country thereabouts.