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Featured NT's vs Aspie thinking.

Discussion in 'General Autism Discussion' started by OrdinaryCitizen, Oct 12, 2019 at 10:50 AM.

  1. OrdinaryCitizen

    OrdinaryCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Aspies are know for being good with Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics (STEM), what differs our thinking from NT's and enables us to perform better in this fields?

    I'd say Aspies are born without built-in "framework" NT's have for integrating in society and world, therefore Aspies have to learn from scratch everything NT's can do fluently.

    Our approach to learning and thinking is different we "brute force" everything, since we have no internal "framework" to guide our thinking, so we think constantly and train our brain day-to-day while NT's just follow built-in program without using much of their brain.

    Also since there is no built in thinking patterns we we can view problem from different angles, whilst NT's are limited to only one way of look at things.

    Person with ASD can form thinking patterns as needed e.g. "systemic thinking" or any other way its just a skill we can learn and use daily, NT's have to really focus and get out their head to apply different thinking. They cannot abstract from built in way's of thinking.

    Downsides:
    - Aspies have to use lots of thinking power to preform tasks or solve problems NT's consider simple and able to do fluently.
    - Integration to society is poor because we have to learn it from scratch and many times we learn wrong ways of dealing with people.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019 at 11:12 AM
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  2. Judge

    Judge Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Perhaps for some of us, but not all a superior ability to focus on things rather than people. Then again, I'm also reminded of an analogy someone once posed to comedian Jimmy "J.J." Walker.

    Interviewer: "Aren't you supposed to be really good playing basketball?"
    Jimmy: "No, man. Because the ball keeps sleeping through my fingers from eating all that fried chicken!"

    That in reality such serious considerations of autistic people really don't go past being stereotypes. I know in my own case that mathematics, engineering, and science in general weren't my best subjects. ;)

    Certainly we have different thought processes from Neurotypicals. However it doesn't mean they or us are necessarily superior to one another. Not to mention just how historically problematic is has been for humanity whenever one group claims superiority over another.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019 at 11:11 AM
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  3. OrdinaryCitizen

    OrdinaryCitizen Well-Known Member

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    I am talking about potential Aspies have, if they choose to work on this particular skills they can be much greater than NT's in this fields.

    Was not my strong side either mainly because no on interested me enough in this and i seen no use for maths in my life.

    Actually was very silly when i was kid, however after getting a personal computer and using it for several years for everyday tasks (mainly gaming and Inernet) my mind got noticeably much sharper. Now after working as computer programmer for few years meaning constant training of mind in solving logical problems i noticed massive improvement in my problem solving skills.
    And zero improvement in social skills of course.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019 at 12:25 PM
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  4. Aspychata

    Aspychata My Art Work

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    But l do understand the OP's point. l can look at something from many different ways because my brain likes to visit all the different options. But also l tend to frustrate NT who don't get that this is normal for me. They tend to think l am trying to show off or one up them, when it's just a normal day where my brain is in the quagmire of thinking too many thoughts. Thanks for helping me understand this.
     
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  5. Judge

    Judge Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Interesting. For me simply owning, using and building computers was nothing compared to having to do my job as an insurance underwriter making complex decisions risking great amounts of corporate assets all day long. Where one big mistake could easily result in termination. Yet arithmetically speaking the job never went past addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, ratios, percentages and interpolating rates.

    Most of the job boiled down to common sense more than anything. Not something likely exclusive to Neurotypicals or Neurodiverse people IMO.

    Ironically after many years I quit that job to go onto website design which paid much more with much less at risk or complex decision-making. So I attribute my ability in problem solving much more towards underwriting than technology. Not to mention that I later became a personal investor, and once again had to embrace a great deal of arithmetic. Nowhere near as fun as website design, but it paid the bills.

    Did my social skills improve with underwriting? Yes and no I suppose. However they got decidedly worse when the job evolved from corporate policy enforcement to marketing. Go figure. :oops:

    Not long before I got that job just talking on the telephone could be daunting for me. I suppose having to answer phone calls every so many seconds helped. Trial by ordeal? But then as an Aspie maybe I was just plain lucky. :eek:
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019 at 12:31 PM
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  6. Streetwise

    Streetwise very cautious contributor V.I.P Member

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    I wonder for all autistic people just how much our brains we could use, I know it’s usually 10%, I wonder if we had help how much more we could use .
    I wonder if it would be the same for neuro typical people, if their socialisation skills could be advanced to the maximum.
     
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  7. Trophonius

    Trophonius Member

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    I don't think this is true in general. Do you have a source or reputable study to cite?

    I don't if this is a joke, but this is not true. All areas of the brain are active are one time or another, depending of the task performed, e.g: visual cortex mostly active during visual activity.
    It's enough to see a fMRI to realize the 10% myth is not true. More importantly, it makes no sense from a biological perspective.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019 at 1:08 PM
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  8. Streetwise

    Streetwise very cautious contributor V.I.P Member

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    in case you can’t read English fluently what do you think usually means? usually 10% doesn’t mean 10%! it means a certain amount of the time 10%!As you like to be scientifically correct to the point of pain,I thought I would speak to you in a language you understand!Ah I must meet you !as you’ve met! every !person !on the planet! and seen their MRIs !so know with complete certainty that every person uses more than 10% of their brain.
    If you haven’t !met every person on the planet! you are just going by statistics! so you are not being scientifically correct!
     
  9. Trophonius

    Trophonius Member

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    1. "A certain amount of the time 10%"
    Still wrong.
    2. "Ah I must meet you !as you’ve met! every !person !on the planet! and seen their MRIs !so know with complete certainty that every person uses more than 10% of their brain."
    That's like saying I need to examine the blood of every human to say anything about their hemoglobin level. But no, we know what the normal range is, we know that some individual deviate from the norm due to some illness, and beyond that is simply impossible because the person would be dead.
     
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  10. Peter Morrison

    Peter Morrison Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    My ASD diagnosis cited what was called "slow processing". Slow in comparison to what? The standard norm I suppose. In exchange for this deficiency I continue to learn way beyond what I am told. I have a strong need to understand how things work in relationship to the big picture. This "slow processing" plagued me during my school years. How do you explain "I'm confused" when you have no idea what aspect of the information is confusing? I'm confused because I haven't absorbed it all yet. The world stops for no one, so I was always left in the dark. I was embarrassed to ask the teacher to repeat anything. I just accepted my confusion and moved along to the next thing. That chews away at confidence. Lost again, well, I'm used to it. I never knew what was governing my inability to follow properly. Everyone else seems to be fine. You feel stupid, even though you aren't.
     
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  11. Thinx

    Thinx Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    I agree that the upsides of our different brains are less discussed than our lacks, and vice versa for NTs. It's a shame, as I think we have a lot to offer, if we were valued and nurtured.

    I think the OP has outlined an interesting way of defining our differences, and I will ponder on these ideas awhile now. Processing may be slow, @Peter Morrison , but quality may higher, once we can take our time...
     
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  12. OrdinaryCitizen

    OrdinaryCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Its common knowledge for me personally i was talking from my personal experience. Not trying to convince anyone who thinks otherwise.

    You could try this i found it after i starting this thread:
    • Two new theories of autism: hyper-systemising and assortative mating
    • Systemisers are better at maths
    • Empathizing–systemizing theory

    This research based on university students Aspies or not, they were interested enough to pursue higher education for whatever reason so they practice this skill. Not every Aspie is good at STEM simplay because they might never been interested/motivated enough, however almost every Aspie has potential to be more successful in it than NT's.

    I spoke with 15 year old Aspie girl who said she was best in class for computer programming while other people including guys were lagging and could not understand she was coding no problem. I had similar experience myself, though i sucked at every other subject mainly because did not give a damn about it.


    Learned about Low Latent Inhibition from "prison break" long before i found out i had ASD.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019 at 12:04 PM
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  13. OrdinaryCitizen

    OrdinaryCitizen Well-Known Member

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    For some reason NT's in my class always compete who finish teachers assignment first.
    In real life it does not matter if you finish things few minutes or hours faster or slower as long as you do a good job esp in complex tasks like programming, so i always failed to understand why they race in school. Perhaps to look smarter than others.

    I had reputation for not giving a damn about studying was actually forced to go to school and hated it...
    On rare occasions when i paid attention (because i was bored of just sitting there) if material was complex teacher would ask "everyone understands, anybody has question?", most people sit down quietly because they did not want to look stupid i suppose.

    I could not care less if i did not know something i asked teacher for clarification and immediately whole class joined with more follow up questions and teacher had to repeat whole material because obviously no one understood, yet they did not wish to show it.

    This happen on multiple occasions and lead me to think people are silly, they care more about what others say/think about them than learning.

    Here's interesting article Why Students with Autism Spectrum Disorder Have Difficulty with Math Word Problem Solving
     
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  14. Nitro

    Nitro Admin/Immoral Turpitude Staff Member Admin V.I.P Member

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    Having worked in a manufacturing setting, there are two values that are important.
    Quality comes first, but if it is slow in coming, it loses value.
    What employers are looking for is accuracy done the most efficient way possible, because that is how they pay the bills.

    Fast slip-shod work will kill a company just as fast as prices that are too high, so a balance has to be found in order to be successful.
     
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  15. OrdinaryCitizen

    OrdinaryCitizen Well-Known Member

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    I guess schools as part of our post-industrial society always prioritize on raising working class people for factories and similar conveyor type organizational structures that require little work just repetition and people are no more than extensions of this big conveyor line and can be replaced if they don't preform fast and efficient enough.

    What i refer to is intellectual work like writing a book or coding an application where it takes time to think things trough from beginning to an end and create something new from scratch it can take from few days to few weeks to complete, taking few days longer in such a complex task does not make much difference.
     
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  16. Nitro

    Nitro Admin/Immoral Turpitude Staff Member Admin V.I.P Member

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    No, I don't believe, from personal experience I might add, that it is not like that at all.
    A lot of my design work took many hours to do, but I had deadlines to meet where if a product wasn't put into production fast enough, your bid was canceled and all of your efforts were lost.
    We built items from concept to design to final product, so it wasn't just smash it out so some robotic employee could grind out our product.
    A lot of thought has to be put into design work in order to make suitable items at an affordable price.
    To tell me that wasn't intellectual enough is an insult to how I made my living and provided wages for others.

    Trust me, think things through too long, and you will be out of a job in coding too.
    If you have a worker beside you that can finish more coding than you, and get it done correctly, your own position could well be terminated.

    To assume that your employer's time doesn't equal money shows how little you know about finances, AKA mathematics.
    To assume that your ASD brain is better suited to the work you do than one of a neurotypical shows an air of supremacy that could well get you knocked down off your peg by one.

    I also happen to know some very intellectual people who at times I feel have a better grasp of what I do, so I never really let neurology guide how my decision process was done.
    I hired based on abilities and fired based on a lack of them, without ever considering neurology.
     
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  17. Fridgemagnetman

    Fridgemagnetman I only have one V.I.P Member

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    Social based learning (integration in society and world) vs literal learning. (Learning as it is,without social reference to status and such)

    Which was the idea showing a key difference below.
     
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  18. Peter Morrison

    Peter Morrison Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    I agree with you completely. The way I see it, the first issue is competition, and boys are more likely to want to compete and win. I think it is in our nature - games like "King of the hill", who runs home fastest, and even hitting something far away with a rock. They are all aggressive games. We even place bets on who can do it fastest, first, or better. Losers are laughed at. I accept these aspects of growing up because I believe they are natural to us. It's not just cultural. You are expected to compete, and you have to accept the loss if you are not the winner. As games, these are fun and innocent. The same spirit of competition goes into sports. For some reason, the world has to know who the best runner is, or who the best skier is. Nature wants us to try. If we never try, we don't develop. We even bring competition into beauty contests. Beauty, strength, and endurance are the result of nature. We have to rate them all. But as Nitro points out, the work world requires people who excel at certain skills. Competition has a purpose. Striving has a purpose. But for kids, especially ones on the spectrum, competition can be more challenging than it is for others. Is it fair? There is no fairness in nature. For us, ASD conditions can be like driving with the emergency brake on. We have to give more just to be average. I know, for myself, constant competition had a negative impact on my self-esteem. I wanted to be like everyone else, but I didn't have the skills to compete and win. The contributing factors are a list that is too long to reference here. I just continued to believe that I was deficient, so I never expected to win anything. I kept trying, but I always expected failure. Oddly, I am an optimist. Perhaps I used optimism to cover the pain of never achieving an admirable winning result. I'm still sifting through events in life to identify ripple effects from childhood experiences. I refuse to whine and I refuse to be a victim, but I had always been curious about the unexplainable successes and failures in my life. In my adult years, I won professional awards for productivity and even one for being the best manager. I strongly believe that my successes were directly related to being able to indulge my ASD attributes. I was happy, my head was clear, and I loved work - no upset, no interruptions, no confusion. I always loved absolute completion, and I was able to pursue it and achieve it. At the time, I didn't know anything about ASD. It was only by chance that my responsibilities were a direct correlation to my ASD traits and abilities. I was incredibly lucky but I never knew it. Today, I am wiser.

    Kids with ASD need to understand how ASD plays out in their world. We have to know ourselves well and we have to be OK with our faults - not unlike anyone else. If you can identify the deficiencies that become a nuisance or have a detrimental impact on a kid, you can reasonably incorporate corrective measures to help a kid achieve where achievement is important. This means understanding that you don't have to be like the other kids who win prizes and awards for being the fastest or having the most impressive science project. We still want to win a prize, but it would make sense to use the ASD skills we possess to suit a realistic, achievable goal. I think that medical science is doing its best to help kids deal with their learning and concentration problems, but it isn't magic. It's just reducing the chaos that interrupts sound thinking and planning. Kids with ASD need a lot of guidance. I had none. That's why I see childhood ASD the way I do. Some of the concepts of learning disabilities can be tough for a child to understand. But if nothing is said or done, the kid is lost at sea. This is why our childhood experiences were difficult and frustrating. We never fit in anywhere, so we feel we have no direction or purpose.

    We praise people who compete, even though there is no way the person can win. Competing is its own achievement. It means they are brave and have determination to try. Our society praises those qualities. If a kid can focus attention and training to achieve in some area, being well aware of the attributes that they possess or lack, the kid will benefit from the skills they need to perfect to get by in life. Sending a kid out for guaranteed failure and ridicule does not do much to enhance clear thinking and realistic expectations. The horrible reality for me in life is that I have 1,000 interests, so you can't give undivided attention to anything. We love to indulge our interests, but this can cause us to lose sight of important priorities that we might reject because they are difficult.

    These kids who compete in school among one another to be the fastest have an advantage. They can work quickly and they are motivated by the thrill of winning. They don't get a cash prize or a new car. They just like winning. I would also add that trying to work quickly is a skill that anyone on the spectrum could benefit from. It's like training for the SAT exams. The objective is a high number of correct answers within a certain amount of time. The faster you work, the more time you have to ponder the difficult questions. Given my scholastic record and abilities, I never expected to do well on the SAT test. Consequently, I didn't try. I didn't think that trying mattered because I was used to failing anyway. That is a really bad attitude, and it is the result of continued difficulties in learning. We can compete, but we have to find the right objectives and methods to connect properly with our mental abilities.

    I think we will always compare ourselves to others, even though it is unhealthy for some. We can use achievers as inspiration, but we have to accept and understand the reality of limitations. We all know we have limitations, but if you can't identify them or deal with them effectively, it's like falling into the same hole every day because you can't fill it in, so your only recourse is to avoid the hole. There is no shame in that. Why incur the upset.
     
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  19. SolarPoweredNightOwl

    SolarPoweredNightOwl Walking contradiction

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    From what I've read (haven't met enough ND in real life to confirm), we seem to have our own framework for socializing, that's quite different from NTs. So more like we have different operating systems. As for STEM, it's definitely not true for all of us. I do alright with numbers and could learn coding pretty well if I had a mind to, but written language is my strong suit.

    I think this is true to a point, but pretty much everyone defaults to the path of least resistance, because a lot of stuff simply doesn't require much thought, and it'd be a waste of energy to over-analyze it. This is literally why habits exist, so you don't have to devote brainpower to things like brushing your teeth. It's true that we look at things from outside the box, but that's because we're outside the box to begin with. Just as we can sometimes think inside the metaphorical box, NTs are sometimes capable of thinking outside of it.
     
  20. Thinx

    Thinx Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Are we outside the box or is it that for us the box isn't there?
     
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