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NT -vs- ASD thoughts

Discussion in 'General Autism Discussion' started by Eric Greenland, Jun 12, 2021.

  1. Eric Greenland

    Eric Greenland New Member

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    NT -vs- ASD thoughts:
    I have come to think of NT logical thought as a circle. A 2D shape. Any logical point of view from a NT mind can be placed on this 2D circle for any given problem/topic with the center being a perfectly balanced point of view. This 2D shape is locked in place tho. The reason for this is in the name... Neuro"typical". This is what humans in general have as a reference. It's what most humans use for logical thought. Us ASD have a third dimension of logical thought. This gives is a sphere rather than a circle. This sphere is not tied to the 2D shape in any way however because we don't use the "normal standards". Because this movable 3D shape is overlayed with the locked in 2D shape, what to a NT could be paradoxical thinking is actually just thinking without the addition of that extra dimension. A sphere can intersect that circle in two way different, way apart points and still fit into our bubble of thought.

    This all works fine for logical thought. The problem comes when you add emotions. Emotions give that locked in 2D shape that extra dimension and now we have two spheres, one locked into the 2D NT logical thought plane and one not. Now when you get an intersection between spheres you get four points that can be connected vertically. This helps explain the perceived "black and white thinking". Our ASD minds can explain up and down each intersecting line with excruciating detail but we can really only explain those two crossing lines because that is our only points of mutual reference. The NT mind, now with that 3rd emotional dimension, has the whole plane of points to reference in between our two lonely little lines. Our positive becomes a negative.

    *If this theory already exists I apologize for ripping it off. It's just been how my visual mind has wrapped itself around my current situation. Tell me what's is wrong with this please. I'm curious. Thank you for your time.
    Eric Greenland
     
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  2. Wolfsage

    Wolfsage In training to be Wolf King.

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    Hi. Never pictured thinking in that context. I always saw it as a flowing manifestation. An outreach beyond the limitations of our bodies and the world we live in. Attempting to understand the world and absorb it's lessons and questioning what we learn along the way. But, NT's have this gift as well.
     
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  3. Eric Greenland

    Eric Greenland New Member

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    Interesting. I appreciate your perspective. So if I'm understanding you correctly, it's almost like a quantum aura we reach out with? I quite often miss the point so I feel the need to clarify
     
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  4. Eric Greenland

    Eric Greenland New Member

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    I guess I'm now picturing an aura of particles that are quantum ly linked with the spooky action at a distance effect to the atoms that make up our thoughts, reaching out into the world, absorbing information! Holy ahit man that mind blowing!
     
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  5. Thinx

    Thinx Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Hi and welcome. Interesting idea, I am not very visual at all, but still can get most of what you mean about how it shows the differences. Good to try to conceptualise this in a way that's non perjorative to either group. I hope you enjoy it here and find plenty of interest.

    :sunflower::cat::sunflower::bee::herb::bug::rose::beetle:
     
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  6. unperson

    unperson Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    NTs do seem to think only along certain planes.
     
  7. Eric Greenland

    Eric Greenland New Member

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    I would love to hear more on how you think about human interaction in a non visual way! I am realizing that visual thought can certainly be helpful, but it also quite limited. Maybe we can help fill in each other's informational voids. Or not, I have no clue.
     
  8. Neonatal RRT

    Neonatal RRT Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    @Eric Greenland, this is an interesting way of perceiving thoughts. I like it on some level.

    However, in my 54 years, working with the public within the hospital setting,...seeing people at their potential worst, as well as, looking at how society has revealed itself on social media over the years, looking at how people can be manipulated though media, politics, and religion,...it just seems to me that most people tend to be creatures of emotion. Fear is a great motivator, and is routinely wielded by people of influence and power to manipulate the narrative and thoughts,...and resultant decision making. Logical reasoning and scientific fact tend to take a background role in decision making for most neurotypicals.

    Regardless of being "on the spectrum" or being so-called "neurotypical", fear plays a role in our lives. Personally, and from other posts on here, many autistics have anxiety issues,..."irrational fears", but for the most part, they tend to be "small scale", more personal to us. However, looking at society, as a whole,...and I would suspect that this includes the majority of the neurotypical population, their fears and anxieties are on a much grander scale,...with a preoccupation with "sameness". Society is obsessed with sameness, whether you are talking about discrimination between races, religions, LGTBQ, politics,...whatever,...we are tribal in nature,...it is about "we" and "they",...and how can we exude some power over the other group. We can also look at every "standard", rule, regulation, policy & procedure, and law,..."order" and "consistency" is valued,...again, it reduces variables that may cause us fear and anxiety associated with some perceived potential "harm". Keeping the population "afraid" allows for easy manipulation. The people that can get quite violent if they perceive their freedoms are impinged upon,...are also the same people that value "law and order", often to the point of authoritarianism,...things that take away freedom. Fear will allow an authoritarian to wield full control over a population,...often to thunderous applause.

    Personally, the only thing that likely separates the way I think versus many of the neurotypicals I have had experience with,...is the fact that I do not have a sense or a desire to be part of a group,...so less subject to influence of others. Two, I tend to have a heavy bias towards logical reasoning and data in my decision making. Three, my decision making is generally not influenced by anxiety and fear. Lastly, because I am very low in cognitive empathy, I generally do not think of others thoughts (I know that sounds bad), but I am not interested in pleasing anyone but myself (exception perhaps being my wife).

    So, I am not convinced, as of yet, that there is some sort of "2D vs 3D" way of thinking,...as I think it is more primal and biological than that. The autistic brain is different in many ways than the neurotypical brain, right down to the anatomical structure of the neurons,...so the function is going to be different,...both good and bad. My personal bias, as someone with Asperger's condition, would be despite some "issues",...my condition has likely put me into a better situation overall than had I been born neurotypical,...but that's me.
     
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  9. Eric Greenland

    Eric Greenland New Member

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    I am going to respond to your thoughts in the order you wrote them. It might be a weird format but I have learned to do what works best for me and this is what currently does.
    I agree with you on the fact that humans are creatures of emotion. I very much agree with your perspective of how powerful fear is and how it can be used. I did not think of this in terms of decision making. More as a way for my brain to visualize the difference.
    I actually feel that fear could be a tool to provide an anchor point between perspectives. Given that the ASD bubble is disconnected from the 2D base, a way to start to increase shared perspectives would be to have a shared anchor point. Once one point is immovable in each perspective, greater overlap can occur. Fear could be that point. It doesn’t have to be a positive perspective. Just the same.
    I feel this model addresses your thoughts. All that your saying in regards to anxiety issues seems true but it doesn’t seem foundational enough. I see this theory as a way to strip aside those individual perspectives and give use a base human visual model in the form of the bubble.
    I fully agree with the lack of desire to be a part of a group! I feel this model can actually help people who really struggle with interpersonal connection such as my self. One could give one’s own perspective bubble (I actually prefer the word perspective over the word disorder) it’s own features. For example a depression bubble may change in size drastically from large to small along the 3rd emotional dimension. Bipolar perspective may have quantum features, able to blink in and out of existence in any place including fully within other perspectives. I hope there are more examples, but I am limited by my own personal experiences.
    I have those biases as well which is why I felt the need to simplify and try to understand emotions logically.
    I try not to let anxiety/fear to influence my decisions. I actually have found my model to be useful in removing these things.
    You and I sound much alike in terms of having low empathy! I have extremely poor “theory of mind” and this has helped me simplify.
    I am still toying with some ideas that would address the “2D -vs- 3D way of thinking”. Initial thoughts are to essentially create a similar model using emotional thought as the 2D plane with a yet undetermined perspective (disorder) providing the 3rd emotional dimension. Few problems I’m still working out with this… it reduces ASD perspective to 1D . What is the 1st dimension? I would argue it is conscientious itself. Either way, when an additional emotional dimension is added to our ASD brains, it still only brings us to a beat case scenario of a 2D emotional space. I have come to think of the 3rd logical and the 3rd emotional as two halves of one large human “sphere”. There in lies another problem tho. Does a point on the logical 2D = the same point on the emotional 2D? My gut says no which leaves a space. Maybe this is where perspectives such as schizophrenia live. In this area with no real reference to either side or maybe strong references to both sides.
    Still working on this and would love input.
     
  10. Eric Greenland

    Eric Greenland New Member

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    Perhaps the perspective of the 3rd emotional dimension from the emotional 2d plane comes from those with downs syndrome?
     
  11. tree

    tree Blue/Green Staff Member V.I.P Member

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    REMINDER

    This is a support forum to which all varieties of neurology are welcome.
    Juxtaposing types with a view toward ranking one superior to another
    is not advised.

    General Rules & Guidelines
     
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  12. Eric Greenland

    Eric Greenland New Member

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    My genuine apologies. It is my true intention to remove any thoughts of superiority. I truly feel we are all equal! We just don't understand each other. My own experience with ASD led me to a subconscious state of superiority which was false, misplaced and unnecessarily complicated. This is me trying to simplify. I understand it seems to be a paradox which, in trying to understand paradoxes, is what led me to posit this theory in the first place. Please believe my words and genuine intentions.
     
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  13. The Lorax

    The Lorax Active Member

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    I'm an NT. I married an ASD. My child is ASD. So I educated myself in neurology and psychology. So I can give you a clear perspective on this matter from the other side.

    #1 Everyone perceives things only in their mind. If what they perceive flows with the large group then things are ok in their lives. Since NTs are social beings they are subject to mass manipulation. Since they are the largest group in the human population their perception of what is "correct behavior" only includes what they are used to. They are not educated on how you are. They only see it as not

    So you have a bunch of people who only understand their way of thinking and you are odd. Even I have to say before I educated myself I was part of that group. Anything else is out of scope and out of comfort of the group.

    #2 NTs have more social constructs around their egos. They need certain social clues to feel comfortable. ASDs don't give or require these clues. An example is this is say I have an issue with someone. I bring it up to them politely. I ask them questions about this issue in an attempt to engage them. They sit in a chair with neutral body language giving one word answers while being unemotional maintaining eye contact without motion, they are stoic. That is incredibly uncomfortable for NTs to handle. There is nothing coming back.

    #3 It has been shown that the farther you are from a catastrophe the less you have empathy for unless you can make a personal connection. When you have it happen to you even more empathy for it. With ASD it is impossible for NTs to understand what is happening in your heads. They are as far away from it as they can be. This also includes people that are over achievers. What do they always say? "What is wrong with you? Just pick yourself up and do something. Pick anything. I do it so can you."

    How can NTs understand what an ASD is going through. It is so far and alien to them they have no empathy. This is all around the social group construct.

    I have educated myself a lot on ASD, ADD, depression, anxiety, and neurology. I still have things I don't understand about my child.

    What is mind boggling to me is that when I speak to other people about mental disorders and ASD they just don't get it. It is like I am talking to my dog. That is what is most bizarre to me. They don't seem to have the self awareness or the trust in my knowledge to understand and accept it. Even if I reach them today it will be gone tomorrow.

    The only time NTs start understanding ASD is when it happens directly to them in a family member like a child. Now they are directly impacted by it. Empathy and understanding kick in.

    To to sum up. They are part of the common social group that behaves like them. They require social clues to satisfy their egos. They are too distant from the ASD situation to have empathy for it unless they are directly affected by it.

    Often when I speak of neurological disorder with people they just don't listen or understand. It's a little mind boggling to me. Usually the conversation comes up when someone in their family has an issue. Recently I was watching some lectures at Stanford University on psychology. Seems to be that we are very programmed in our behavior even stating in the womb by what the mother eats. Absolutely fascinating material.

    I can say if I did not marry and ASD and have an ASD child I would have been part of the masses. But ASD has really improved my cognition about all sorts of scientific fields and I am thankful. I feel like a better person and I am helping two people have a better life.

    Sorry most NTs suck. It's just their construct.
     
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  14. Neonatal RRT

    Neonatal RRT Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    I am not quite sure, but it seems as if you may be "dancing" around the topics of the "Id, ego, and super-ego"...aka "instincts, reality, and morality",...your "dimensions" as your language might suggest, as it pertains to thinking perspectives. https://www.simplypsychology.org/psyche.html
     
  15. Eric Greenland

    Eric Greenland New Member

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    Thank you so much!
    Thank you so much!!! I LOVE hearing from you normal people! For the record... I decided when I discovered my ASD that I would fully own it and do my best explain to those who are curious. I would love to have a convo with you whenever! I will warn you tho that I am honest to the point of bluntness and that very often comes off as rude. Look me up.
     
  16. Eric Greenland

    Eric Greenland New Member

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    Well that's a whole new chestnut! These concepts are foreign to me and I in no way can reply to your comment in an intelligent way yet. Let me chew on this for a few weeks. Thanks for the additional perspective.
     
  17. Eric Greenland

    Eric Greenland New Member

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    Ive read this a buncha times now and its super insightful! Gonna take me a bit to understand i think but i think i hear ya enough to offer a possible joint perspective. Ive been listening to a book called "The Attachment Effect" by Peter Lovenheim. It is not meant for ASD minds (i dont think) and yet i felt it described much of how i became this way. A NT close to me enjoyed and related to the book as well. *full disclosure, i haven't finished it yet and may not cause i struggle with books, even on tape.
     
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  18. Neonatal RRT

    Neonatal RRT Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    I appreciated this as much of this explains a lot of NT behavior that I have been observing.

    Examples:
    1. My observation with society's preoccupation, and almost obsession with "sameness", "predictability", and "conformity". A fear-based social construct that shows itself in the form of every "rule" (standard, policy, law, etc.), to science (the desire to understand the facts,...so they can make rules), to discrimination (political, religious, racial, LGTBQ, etc.). All of this is to reduce fear and anxiety surrounding the "unknowns" and "differences". "When in Rome, do as the Romans." It also plays a role in any "therapy" for anyone with any sort of neurodivergence,...it is called a "disorder",...because we crave "order". So, we must change our behaviors to fit their construct, so they don't get uncomfortable (fear). We have to mask, put on a persona,...so they feel comfortable,...not considering the harm it is doing to us. They get uncomfortable, they reject,...and we, wanting to fit in, respond with depression, anxiety, self-harm, self-medication, suicide, etc. Their social construct literally doesn't allow for any understanding or empathy (even though some individuals may be quite empathetic),...my observation when I revealed my autism to my healthcare co-workers,..."Ok",...that's it,...nothing more,...no questions,...essentially no response,...like talking to my dog. If group of people were to be empathetic one would think people I have known for years, working in a children's hospital would be,...but NO.
    2. Fear, a primal biological emotion, is a driver of most decision making and reasoning. Fear is expertly wielded by big corporations, releasing mis/disinformation against competitors (gas vs electric powered vehicles, fossil fuels vs renewable energy, etc.). Several thousand gas powered vehicles catch fire each year,...no news,...one electric car catches fire,...makes world news. Fear is expertly wielded by the media by the mantra "if it bleeds, it reads" (murders, rapes, kidnappings, car accidents, CoVID-19 statistics, mass shootings, natural disasters, extreme weather events, global warming events, etc.). Follow the stock market,...stock prices are heavily influenced by fear and contribute to significant volatility, people can loose millions of dollars based upon market responses to mis/disinformation,...in fact, FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) is part of the lingo. Fear plays a part in our responses to any potential harm of our loved ones. If you want to see someone become totally irrational and "unhinged",...threaten harm towards a loved one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
  19. Eric Greenland

    Eric Greenland New Member

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    Yeup.... Fear is powerful. It's primal. That's why it's so effective. It seems to be a lower dimension emotion that permeates across society. One of the foundational fractal patterns that could link us all as "human". Fear has been co opted tho. Rather than being a fundamental link across perspectives, it has been monetized/bastardized. We are afraid of fear while simultaneously dismissing potential positives because of the deep built in social stigma. "Negative" perspectives (which I believe often aren't really negative, just cast that way, because society as a whole is unable to get past the gutteral reactions and see "negativity" for what it is: an intellectual link between humans) are good! My opinion.... let the militant ignorant misunderstand. We have the logical dimension to see fear for what it is. Use it my friend. To most NTs it is easier to criticize than understand and we let that mindset permeate our extra dimension (probably because we just didn't know any better, it's all we know. Asking a person to appreciate a perspective they haven't conceptualize d is like asking someone to picture a color they have never seen. The human mind can't. It's foundational refrence doesn't exist). Your to logical to fall for such silly false social constructs. Use your dimension (your pure dimension) to understand that much of what sounds like worries you, isn't even a correct representation of what's happening. It's what a society that lacks the proper logical dimension has told you you should "feel". Reject old tired ideas.
     
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  20. Tom

    Tom Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    NT vs ASD thoughts? That's easy.

    source.gif

    ;)