NT traits being more recent in homo sapiens evolution

[Atrapa Almas]

The more I read about autism, the more it seems clear (to me) that autism traits are accient while NT traits are more recent. I mean here autism and NTs evolutionary traits, not autism frecuent problems in our modern society. Let me share some observations I have done about the subjet:

• Autism traits are more family-tribe-small groups oriented, in this groups individuality is important as any person of the group knows all the other people.

• NT traits works better in bigger groups where its needed to merge with the group, suppositions about how other people think or behave are important because there is no chance to know all members of those big groups. And there is such level of especialization that everyone must follow the designed plan for them.

• Autism sensory traits are "aware" of a lot of imputs, filtering "badly". This is usefull in dangerous enviroments, like those of accient times when whe still had not dominated the enviroment.

• NT sensory traits filter almost everything but what they expect to see, hear or think. This is usefull in social heavy groups and enviroments which have been dominated and no longer are so dangerous.

• Autism values and ethics are more in the direction of being at equilibrium with nature, there is less ambition, less need of having more than other people of the group, less aggression, and more comtemplation. To me this makes sense with humans who was in balance with their enviroment in small groups.

• NT values and ethics are more about supremacy, being the best, having more than other members of the group, more about social status, power, influence. Thus they dont care much of the enviroment and grow without control consuming all kind of resources until they need to move, expand, or do war.

So I was having those thougths when I started reading some Temple Granding books like "The autistic brain" and " Animals in translation". There she explains how animals brains work, and their social behavour and many other (very interesting) things and by doing comparions she concludes that (in her oppion) autists brains and senses are closer to brains and senses of animals than NT brains and senses. This reinforced my personal view of NT traits being a more modern variation of homo sapiens gennes (and of NT traits being responsible of the homo sapiens exponential growth in the last 100k years, causing the holocene mass extintion).

And today I bought an audio book called "Sapiens: A brief history of humankind" that is not about autism at all, its about the personal informed view of the author of our history. And in the very first chapter he talks about homo sapiens being more or less in equilibrium with the enviroment until about 100k years ago where something happened to us that make us to grow exponentially destroying the enviroment and all the other human species. And the magic adaptation that according to him explains our success is "socials". More in detail he explains that things like "gossiping", "figurative thinking to create religions, nacionalisms, laws and other expressions of social culture" allowed us to colaborate in way bigger groups so we could have such success. So this book (at least the first chapter I hear today) seems also to reinforce my own view about his matter.

And as I have nobody else I can tell this, I am telling it to you. You may care or not, but I dont feel judged by having different ideas or interests here in the forum.

Thank you for that.

 

[Slim Jim]

So... Neanderthals.

 

[Darkkin]

There are actually more than just the Neanderthals that were alive at the same time. There were also the Denisovans based on fossils found in a cave in Siberia. Has anyone else read Clan of the Cave Bear? I was a bit young when I read them im 7th Grade, but the history they explore was fascinating.

 

[StrayCat]

There she explains how animals brains work, and their social behavour and many other (very interesting) things and by doing comparions she concludes that (in her oppion) autists brains and senses are closer to brains and senses of animals than NT brains and senses.

Maybe I should investigate her, it's certainly in line with my own experiences

I can also see why that would not be popular view, not only it could be potentially dangerous in "social suicide" kind of way, it probably also hurts those huge egos autists tend to have...

 

[BNeg01]

The more I read about autism, the more it seems clear (to me) that autism traits are accient while NT traits are more recent. I mean here autism and NTs evolutionary traits, not autism frecuent problems in our modern society. Let me share some observations I have done about the subjet:

• Autism traits are more family-tribe-small groups oriented, in this groups individuality is important as any person of the group knows all the other people.

• NT traits works better in bigger groups where its needed to merge with the group, suppositions about how other people think or behave are important because there is no chance to know all members of those big groups. And there is such level of especialization that everyone must follow the designed plan for them.

• Autism sensory traits are "aware" of a lot of imputs, filtering "badly". This is usefull in dangerous enviroments, like those of accient times when whe still had not dominated the enviroment.

• NT sensory traits filter almost everything but what they expect to see, hear or think. This is usefull in social heavy groups and enviroments which have been dominated and no longer are so dangerous.

• Autism values and ethics are more in the direction of being at equilibrium with nature, there is less ambition, less need of having more than other people of the group, less aggression, and more comtemplation. To me this makes sense with humans who was in balance with their enviroment in small groups.

• NT values and ethics are more about supremacy, being the best, having more than other members of the group, more about social status, power, influence. Thus they dont care much of the enviroment and grow without control consuming all kind of resources until they need to move, expand, or do war.

So I was having those thougths when I started reading some Temple Granding books like "The autistic brain" and " Animals in translation". There she explains how animals brains work, and their social behavour and many other (very interesting) things and by doing comparions she concludes that (in her oppion) autists brains and senses are closer to brains and senses of animals than NT brains and senses. This reinforced my personal view of NT traits being a more modern variation of homo sapiens gennes (and of NT traits being responsible of the homo sapiens exponential growth in the last 100k years, causing the holocene mass extintion).

And today I bought an audio book called "Sapiens: A brief history of humankind" that is not about autism at all, its about the personal informed view of the author of our history. And in the very first chapter he talks about homo sapiens being more or less in equilibrium with the enviroment until about 100k years ago where something happened to us that make us to grow exponentially destroying the enviroment and all the other human species. And the magic adaptation that according to him explains our success is "socials". More in detail he explains that things like "gossiping", "figurative thinking to create religions, nacionalisms, laws and other expressions of social culture" allowed us to colaborate in way bigger groups so we could have such success. So this book (at least the first chapter I hear today) seems also to reinforce my own view about his matter.

And as I have nobody else I can tell this, I am telling it to you. You may care or not, but I dont feel judged by having different ideas or interests here in the forum.

Thank you for that.

I was seriously pondering the possibility of NT behavior being the next stage in human evolution the other day. Could be why they reproduce so much more. It's seemingly all that is on the mind if your average NT specimen.

 

[SpiltPaint]

I've gone down the same rabbit hole, but I have a completely different perspective on that. I recommend the book 'Pattern Seekers' by Simon-Baren-Cohen.

 

[JackAdams]

I love this subject. The evolutionary history of Asperger's Syndrome is marvelous. However I do disagree with you pretty much completely.

Neurotypicals are just that, typical. They are normal mammalian humans, social humans. As social mammals they live in a hierarchy that is directly a result of perceived genetic quality, and the main mechanism for maintaining the hierarchy is testosterone. Testosterone is what allows a person to think outside the herd mentality that is common in normal people, as they have the genetic quality to not be entirely dependent on the herd. While people of lower perceived genetic quality will develop lower testosterone, thus having lower ability to question the norm, this is an evolutionary adaptation, as if they did question the norm and got expelled from the group, they would likely die. It also guarantee's that the leader of the group is the most capable and genetically fit individual and allows the group to smoothly function. Basically they outsource their ability for independent thought to their leaders.

Individuals with Asperger's are not normal, in fact divine. The main mechanism for Asperger's Syndrome is prenatal testosterone in the brain or something similar, which leaves a permanent impact on the brain and thus gives the individual a highly masculinized "hyper-systemized" brain. When combined with other genes that lend to intelligence it leads to a human capable of unprecedented levels of thought.

I believe that nearly every invention from fire to the wheel to the combustion engine and beyond are all invented by individuals with AS, and that we are the creators of civilization itself. I do agree with you on the subject that people with AS are generally more in touch with nature. This is because of their highly systemizing brain, resulting in them having a better understanding of what's called "Natural Law", basically the way nature works. This ties back to my belief in the divine nature of AS. Every single european pagan culture I have studied had at least one god associated with divine right / rightful kingship. Which I have come to understand simply meant having AS.

 

[Greatshield17]

• Autism traits are more family-tribe-small groups oriented, in this groups individuality is important as any person of the group knows all the other people.

Once again the importance of why forming small Autistic Communities within larger non-Autistic communities is a key way to achieve Autism Acceptance is shown:

Battle Plans for achieving Autism Acceptance.

 

[Greatshield17]

Autism values and ethics are more in the direction of being at equilibrium with nature, there is less ambition, less need of having more than other people of the group, less aggression, and more comtemplation. To me this makes sense with humans who was in balance with their enviroment in small groups.

Apologies for taking the conversation in this direction, but have ever heard of the Mesoamerican Four-Petal Flower?

 

[Atrapa Almas]

Nope, I have not.

 

[Outdated]

That's a really interesting theory @Atrapa Almas .

I can't think of anything to refute it and I can cite examples that back it up. Including a very high incidence of autism in Australian Aboriginal peoples. And my own experience of heightened senses when I had to hunt my own food.

 

[Greatshield17]

Nope, I have not.

In Aztec philosophy, the Four-Petal Flower symbolized the natural order of everything, the Divine Order of the Cosmos; it's the equivalent of the Tao in China (I've actually been reading the Tao de Ching), Rta in Hinduism, and the Logos in Greek philosophy. This of course is why I'm interested in it, as a Catholic I believe that the God of Israel is the Divine Order of the Cosmos Himself as the fist chapter of St. John's Gospel teaches; on the Miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, the Four-Petal Flower actually appears on Her Womb showing that Her Son is that Divine Order incarnate. The earliest churches in Mexico were actually decorated with this Indigenous symbol, presumably it was the horrible Bourbon Reforms that stopped this, when they tried to Europeanize the Indigenous people and strip them of their autonomy, and thus you had Tupac's revolt down in South America. I'd like to see the Four-Petal brought back and this school of Mesoamerican philosophy taught more in the Americas.

 

[tree]

REMINDER

For discussions of a religious /faith based nature,
please use the Religion area.

 

[Hypnalis]

@Atrapa Almas
I don't think there's any useful evidence to support or refute your views. But I'm inclined to disagree with some of them.

For a start I think it has to be a comparison between ASD1(+ some ASD2) and NT's, because I doubt that non-contributing members of society would have survived to adolescence if you go far back in time (middle paleolithic).

But to me, the a distinguishing characteristic of ASD1 is a deficit in non-verbal and indirect communication - many of us (perhaps most) don't learn it instinctively as children. But you'd expect those skills to be extremely important during the time that language was being evolved/developed.

To me, that suggests that NT traits may well have evolved as an integral part of the development and evolution of the Homo species from which homo sapiens developed.

OTOH I don't think all the facts are in on any of this

BTW I'm struggling with the idea that "something big changed" 100K years ago.

Homo Sapiens is about 300K years old (very young for a species). It's hard to imagine there being an evolutionary change that doesn't show up in fossil records, but relatively quickly turned us into organized group hunters capable of destroying much of the world's megafauna with early stone-age tools.

We were already weak (relative to other animals), with very limited/weak natural weapons, physically equipped to be tool users (human hand "design" and relative strength), smart, and (perhaps) with language.

My person theory (with AFAIK no/few facts to support it) is that at a certain point the population density started getting high enough in some locations to make larger groups possible. And by chance evolution had equipped us with the social skills to actually make larger organized groups and use them for something (such as slaughter of the local megafauna, farming, constructing defenses against the environment, stealing from less organized neighbors).

But what was it that caused the weird body and intelligence? My personal vote is for the tool-user hands.

 

[Outdated]

... It's hard to imagine there being an evolutionary change that doesn't show up in fossil records....

There seems to be a few funny quirks throughout our evolution. I think we're the only apes with the layers of subcutanious fat to keep us warm in water which suggests that for a while large portions of our populations spent a lot of time in water, probably getting shellfish. That one act would encourage tool use and possibly even be partly responsible for longer legs.

When I got older I discovered just how sensitive a beard is to shifting water currents, perhaps this was a part of the same evolutionary process.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

There seems to be a few funny quirks throughout our evolution. I think we're the only apes with the layers of subcutanious fat to keep us warm in water which suggests that for a while large portions of our populations spent a lot of time in water, probably getting shellfish. That one act would encourage tool use and possibly even be partly responsible for longer legs.

When I got older I discovered just how sensitive a beard is to shifting water currents, perhaps this was a part of the same evolutionary process.

We actually do have many water related mutations, resistance traveling mutations, and throwing weapons mutations. Among many others. The "we are weak" theory is from a melee figth perspective, but we are distance figthers and trappers.

My personal vote is for the tool-user hands.

Its nice to imagine different posibilities, I am slowly learning that no facts or science can stop people from thinking they are rigth. Autistics or not. Today Im in such a relax mood that I would agree that we voted on mathematics. So Im fine with your vote on the tools thing.

 

[Luca]

@Hypnalis
I don't support the "autistic people are non-contributing members of society" theory, and don't think it's fair to say that autistic people would inherently not survive natural selection.
Let me tell you why.

There are a huge number of wildly successful autistic individuals on this forum alone. I own a business that is consistently outperforming all my competitors. I have been very candid about this and many other successes. Gerald Wilgus is another highly successful individual that comes to mind. Look at what he has done for environmentalism and the study of fossils. Sherlock77 is an extraordinary photographer who has been awarded for his work. Neonatal RRT and Bolletje are highly successful in the medical field, and Thinx is a therapist. Raggamuffin is an incredibly talented artist who has sold a lot of pieces. Darkkin is a very accomplished and talented poet, and an intellectual. tree, Satal, Nitro, and clg maintain and run this site and don't always get enough due credit... they have an extremely tough job. Aspychata has had a very tough life and has shown incredible growth and resiliency. Forest Cat and Metalhead have an impressive sense of humor and know how to put a smile on anyone's face despite hardships in both of their lives. Maycontainthunder and Judge are probably the kindest people I have ever known. Callistemon is a homesteader and owns a bed and breakfast. Mary Terry has a wealth of knowledge about the world we live in, and has been particularly inspiring to me regarding farming and cooking, and has no doubt been an inspiration to many others. Magna is great at seeing things from a variety of perspectives and doing so kindly. Rodafina has an amazing creative spirit and makes beautiful artwork even though she has overcome some truly awful things. VictorR has traveled the world and is extremely knowledgeable about world politics, same with Stuttermabolur, and they have educated me (and others) about quite a lot of things. Atrapa Almas, who you are debating with here, is unequivocally intelligent and does indeed know what he is talking about. These are just a few examples that come to mind but there are many, many more that I will gladly mention here. There is an ever-increasing number of forum members who are married or in healthy relationships... and are happy (like Gerontius, for example), or are parents, are homeowners, do very well in school, and/or have careers, even successful self-employment.
And yes, there are ASD2 and ASD3, and nonverbal, people on here who have done great things as well, so don't write them off or think they're "not as good as" people with ASD1 or Aspergers. Sarah S has been very open about being ASD3 and being successful in her life in the face of adversity. Grommet is a nonverbal person who has overcome a lot, lives his life to the fullest, and is an inspiration.

None of the people I've mentioned in this post would be victims of natural selection, in any time period, and I am quite confident of that.
So yeah, don't sell anyone short. You don't know the whole story.

 

[Swansong]

Is this related o that four letter personality classification? Meyer-Briggs I believe it's called?

I once read in depth about and the conclusion seemed to be that at best it's scientific rigor was sorely lacking and at worst it was full on pseudo-science.

But I do see the appeal, humans have a natural inclination towards clear and digestible sorting and classification. The idea that humans in all their irrational complexity can be neatly classified through a standardized test seems appealing.

But I'm no sure if it has any meaningful relevance beyond that.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

Is this related o that four letter personality classification? Meyer-Briggs I believe it's called?

No, its not about Myers Briggs.

NT means Neuro Typical, normal human from an stadistic point of view focusing on human neurodivergence. So NT are the mayority of people.

ND means neurodivergence, it does not refer to better or worse, just different path. Some divergences are better than normal, like extra focus, more specific intelligence (like maths), and others may be worst than normal. Like social skills for autists, danger measurement for psycopaths or many others. And in most cases are all mixed. And also mixed with sensory stuff, and other things. This stuff is so mixed that the concept of "normality" is less relevant the more we learn about human divergence.

I dont think we can re-construct an ancient homo Sapiens human like we cant re-construct an ancient Neanthertal human. The gennes are there, but so mixed with modern gennes that may be almost imposible to naturally get an ancient human.

Combinatory stadistics imply than even autistic people will have mostly NT gennes. As an example most modern humans have some degree of tolerance to sugar, bread and milk. Probably ancient humans had way lower tolerance to those foods. This lack of food tolerance is more clear on indigenous people, as it must be other lack of NT gennes.

It actually doesnt mind very much, when I wrote this I just wanted to share some ideas. Im not claiming to have the truth on the subjet. I just like the topic but had nobody to talk about it face to face.

Peace.

 

[Outdated]

....most modern humans have some degree of tolerance to sugar, bread and milk.

Another small twist in our evolution, and a small measure of just how quickly evolution happens.

People of European descent have a much higher tolerance for alcohol than others.

The reason: Populations got too high and forests were devastated by the need for cooking fuel. Then people started using coal. For many hundreds of years Europe was so polluted that people couldn't drink water. Even rain water had too many pollutants in it. So wealthy people drank wine and the poorer folk drank ale.

Several hundred years sounds like a long time but it's only a dozen or so generations, a very short time for such an adaptation to take place.