NT thinking and us

[Pats]

There are so many comments (yes, justified) about NT's not understanding us and our thought processes. Shoot, we don't understand a lot of it ourselves. We seem to have this need to understand how our mind works because we know we are different? I know I am very self analytical and is it because I know I'm different? Because we question so much about ourselves?
I noticed we complain a lot about NT's not understanding us, but how well do we understand them? How much time do we take to understand how other people's minds work and think? I don't think like an NT so I can not know how they think. I often ask my daughter in law specific questions about her way of thinking or seeing things and we compare. It's interesting to see the differences.
I'm still thinking about all the different comments on empathy and I'm wondering how much the emotions we're picking up on are from our own discomforts. And how do we know if we're truly feeling what they are feeling if we can't get inside their heads? Outside stimuli influences how we feel - noises, lights, chaotic movements, smells - so how much of what we're feeling is related to something specific and how much is related to everything else around us? It's hard because there are so many things going on that our brain is taking in and not distinguishing one from the other and something innocent suddenly becomes a nightmare. I can't be upset with the NT's for not understanding what that's like - how could they possibly?
I remember reading an article about how the brain processes fear. In an NT brain, the part of the brain that picks up fear sends the signal to the part that interprets whether or not it is actually something to fear - so it analyzes before sending it to the fight or flight part of our brain. Our fear signal passes over the interpreting part and even though we might realize it's not something to fear we still go into the fight or flight mode. IE: Oh that's just a mark on the wall, not a spider. A normal person is then fine, but we're not. We not only have already gone into that fight or flight mode, but it takes us much longer to return to normal. I like comparing what's going on in my brain with the NT brain and if something is going on with me I might can better explain to an NT the difference in their reaction and mine if I need to, but usually not because I'm not asking them to explain what is going on with them either.
Anyhow, that's one of the things that makes me feel selfish - because I want them to understand me and my thought processes being different, but I'm not as interested in understanding them and their thought processes - other than to compare.
Thoughts? (Didn't mean the pun. lol)

 

[Judge]

True. It goes both ways more often than not. Unfortunately we remain a distinct minority. Which more often than not puts us at a distinct disadvantage, socially or otherwise. While we may want desperately to be heard, they may be indifferent to what we a two-percent minority have to say.

Sometimes I suspect we can all summarize it all into a single video presentation:

 

[Pats]

 

[Bella Pines]

On a neuroscientific level I would love to study aspie versus NT brain structure. Or invent a machine that can adequately map and compare biological neural networks, I find it fascinating.

I've given up on them ever understanding me. I've been married to an NT for 20 years and during some hard years when the kids were young, we realised that we would never understand each other, but can predict and fully accept each other. As such we work really well as a team.

But as for other NTs, that is a life battle for me. I constantly fight against judging them. I don't want to generalise or discriminate against a (rather large!) group, but I do. I notice every time I do it. I patronize them, call their illogical actions pathetic, see them as weak and fail to understand how they can accept social norms without question. My fixer techniques are to see the world as a mix of colours and also try to see them as individuals. And stop calling them "them"! I use visualizations and hopefully one day I'll mature to the point where I stop discriminating, and the NT v aspie is no longer a thing for me.

 

[OlLiE]

there are so many 'small' groups of different people,
we realistically can't expect the 90% average people to take everyone's specific limitations and needs into account

i'm afraid that all we can 'expect' from NT's, is what anyone should be able to expect from anyone else:
- respect
- an openness to listen, understand and talk

regretfully, even that is beyond most people's capabilities

 

[Bolletje]

I have trouble understanding many people, whether on the spectrum or not.

 

[Pats]

Actually I would like to hear more from the NT's on here that we can compare . But I tend to forget, so you would need to remind me if you are neurotypical.

 

[Ginseng]

Sometimes I suspect we can all summarize it all into a single video presentation:

I always loved that quote. I have thought of it often. I couldn’t agree with you more.

 

[the_tortoise]

How much time do we take to understand how other people's minds work and think?

Lots, in my case. I wonder a lot about other people's thoughts and feelings and usually I try very hard to understand them.

And how do we know if we're truly feeling what they are feeling if we can't get inside their heads?

We don't.

I find it astonishing how much confidence some people have in their assessment of other people's feelings and thoughts (especially when they are wrong and are told explicitly, and in detail, that they are wrong by the person having the thoughts and feelings, but cannot or will not believe it).

Edit: To be fair, sometimes I doubt what people say about themselves, but I try to keep an open mind and I trust that ultimately other people know themselves a whole lot better than I do.

 

[PATILYN]

Actually I would like to hear more from the NT's on here that we can compare . But I tend to forget, so you would need to remind me if you are neurotypical.

Hi pat, I have been here for awhile. I would be excited to hear from you ... I am NT. I have friends, employees and family and a man whom I have loved all on the spectrum. It would be so cool to exchange thoughts. Fire away.

 

[Pats]

Hi pat, I have been here for awhile. I would be excited to hear from you ... I am NT. I have friends, employees and family and a man whom I have loved all on the spectrum. It would be so cool to exchange thoughts. Fire away.

Great. Will do. First thing I would ask - when you look at a wall, what do you see and notice? (Wall with shelves, pictures, knick knacks, whatever).

 

[Theta.G]

I noticed we complain a lot about NT's not understanding us, but how well do we understand them?
The world is dominated by an NT populace, we grew up around NT's so i would say we know them quite well. Certainly in relation to us, the minority. I think those who developed autism after birth / later in life whether childhood, teenage years or young adulthood will also have some better insight into the NT mind.

How much time do we take to understand how other people's minds work and think? Out of personal interest i spent a lot of time studying this both in a broad sense and with those in my personal life. I think one needs a catalyst as a driver for mind studies. Living with abusive manipulative narcs will usually jump start this if the person becomes aware of the manipulations.

 

[Pats]

I noticed we complain a lot about NT's not understanding us, but how well do we understand them?
The world is dominated by an NT populace, we grew up around NT's so i would say we know them quite well. Certainly in relation to us, the minority. I think those who developed autism after birth / later in life whether childhood, teenage years or young adulthood will also have some better insight into the NT mind.

How much time do we take to understand how other people's minds work and think? Out of personal interest i spent a lot of time studying this both in a broad sense and with those in my personal life. I think one needs a catalyst as a driver for mind studies. Living with abusive manipulative narcs will usually jump start this if the person becomes aware of the manipulations.

I'm not an expert, but I don't think you can develop autism later in life. It's a physical difference in the brain. I guess I'm thinking we can't put ourselves inside someone else's mind so we can never be sure we know how they are feeling and all.

 

[Theta.G]

I'm not an expert, but I don't think you can develop autism later in life. It's a physical difference in the brain. I guess I'm thinking we can't put ourselves inside someone else's mind so we can never be sure we know how they are feeling and all.

Head injuries can do this, some drugs which cross the blood brain barrier can also do this especially if used by a growing developing brain / in children.

 

[Daydreamer]

I think that often in these conversations perhaps the malleable nature of the brain is not taken into account as much as it should be. Our minds are both products of our nature and nurture. Personally, I don’t view myself as completely neurotypical per say, as I have grown up with people around me consistently questioning my behaviour...asking why I do this, or why I do that...and so on.

Sometimes people have remarked “I wish I knew how your brain works” and on occasion I’ve had “psychologists would sure have a field day with you”. I’m quite used to being referred to as a bit of an oddity.

Talent and perception vary greatly between people, and the brain can form in peculiar ways. When an area of the brain is perhaps a bit lacking, it can end up almost compensating for it by developing considerable skill in another area. For example, I have fairly poor mathematical skills and my visual processing ability is way below the average. However, I am skilled in other areas such as; auditory memory, creative thinking, retaining facts (although my brain is very selective over what kind it chooses to remember) and sensory perception. You could play a few seconds of a song I know and I’d probably place it instantly. I was born prematurely, and certain learning disabilities do run in my family so that probably explains some of my difficulties.

How are you defining neurotypical on this thread? I know that some simply use it as a word to describe anyone who isn’t autistic, whereas others use it as a means to specify individuals with no neurological conditions whatsoever. Although I don’t have a diagnosis, I do heavily suspect that I either have dyscalculia or some kind of visual processing disorder. On the official tests that I have done with an education manager I scored within the 1st percentile (99% of people who took the same tests scored higher than me, and the average was nowhere near my score unfortunately… I took this test twice, once at 14 almost 15 and again at either 16 or 17, I believe it would’ve been closer to 17 and I scored the same both times) for visual processing/rapid visual information processing testing, so it seems clear that this is an area that I struggle with immensely.

Also, I was considered selectively mute as a young child so I was classified as having a type of social anxiety disorder (I mainly felt self-conscious about my speech impediments though, that’s why I felt anxious and withdrew from almost everyone for a few years). However, I am much more talkative these days, although my stutter and signs of lisp occasionally reveal themselves.

Now, as for your question regarding a wall...I imagine one with bumps on it. Not completely smooth. The paint has chipped off a bit (it’s an old wall, hasn’t been painted for a while..could do with a new coat of it), but it’s primarily a dark blue colour, although the parts where it has peeled off a little reveal an off white. Unless you meant one in reality, I just described the first visual imagine that comes into my head when I think of the word. Anything else you’d like to know?

Edit: Just to clarify, when I mention visual processing issues, in my case I mean that there is a noticeable delay between when my brain sees visual information such as abstract symbols (particularly numbers or music notes on a sheet of paper) and the time it takes for my brain to recognise and process them. There's nothing wrong with my eyesight, it just takes longer than expected for me to take in this information. If numbers quickly flashed on a screen and I was asked to choose which pattern was just shown out of a multiple choice question (a fairly common test when it comes to visual processing retention), I'd find it really difficult.

 

[Pats]

I think that often in these conversations perhaps the malleable nature of the brain is not taken into account as much as it should be. Our minds are both products of our nature and nurture. Personally, I don’t view myself as completely neurotypical per say, as I have grown up with people around me consistently questioning my behaviour...asking why I do this, or why I do that...and so on.

Sometimes people have remarked “I wish I knew how your brain works” and on occasion I’ve had “psychologists would sure have a field day with you”. I’m quite used to being referred to as a bit of an oddity.

Talent and perception vary greatly between people, and the brain can form in peculiar ways. When an area of the brain is perhaps a bit lacking, it can end up almost compensating for it by developing considerable skill in another area. For example, I have fairly poor mathematical skills and my visual processing ability is way below the average. However, I am skilled in other areas such as; auditory memory, creative thinking, retaining facts (although my brain is very selective over what kind it chooses to remember) and sensory perception. You could play a few seconds of a song I know and I’d probably place it instantly. I was born prematurely, and certain learning disabilities do run in my family so that probably explains some of my difficulties.

How are you defining neurotypical on this thread? I know some simply use it as a word to describe anyone who isn’t autistic, however others use it as a means to specify individuals with no neurological conditions whatsoever. Although I don’t have a diagnosis, I do heavily suspect that I either have dyscalculia or some kind of visual processing disorder. On the official tests that I have done with an education manager I scored within the 1st percentile (99% of people who took the same tests scored higher than me, and the average was nowhere near my score unfortunately… I took this test twice, once at 14 almost 15 and again at either 16 or 17, I believe it would’ve been closer to 17 and I scored the same both times) for visual processing/rapid visual information processing testing, so it seems clear that this is an area that I struggle with immensely.

Also, I was considered selectively mute as a young child so I was classified as having a type of social anxiety disorder (I mainly felt self-conscious about my speech impediments though, that’s why I felt anxious and withdrew from almost everyone for a few years). However, I am much more talkative these days, although my stutter and signs of lisp occasionally reveal themselves.

Now, as for your question regarding a wall...I imagine one with bumps on it. Not completely smooth. The paint has chipped off a bit (it’s an old wall, hasn’t been painted for a while..could do with a new coat of it), but it’s primarily a dark blue colour, although the parts where it has peeled off a little reveal an off white. Unless you meant one in reality, I just described the first visual imagine that comes into my head when I think of the word. Anything else you’d like to know?

Edit: Just to clarify, when I mention visual processing issues, in my case I mean that there is a noticeable delay between when my brain sees visual information such as abstract symbols (particularly numbers or music notes on a sheet of paper) and the time it takes for my brain to recognise and process them. There's nothing wrong with my eyesight, it just takes longer than expected for me to take in this information. If numbers quickly flashed on a screen and I was asked to choose which pattern was just shown out of a multiple choice question (a fairly common test when it comes to visual processing retention), I'd find it really difficult.

Hi Daydreamer. I'm using NT here meaning those who appear 'normal'? I don't know - I'm following suit more or less. Why are you cornering me on this one? I'm still learning. lol Yes, I know that not everyone who is non-autistic is normal. Believe me - I know. LOL (I'm trying to be funny here to squirm out of answering something I have no idea how to answer. )
As far as the wall - yes, I mean a real wall. Like if you were to look right now are the wall in front of you, what do you see? Are you focusing on one object and not really seeing everything else on the wall or are you seeing the wall and everything on it as a whole or what? I'm always curious about that for some reason.

 

[Daydreamer]

Hi Daydreamer. I'm using NT here meaning those who appear 'normal'? I don't know - I'm following suit more or less. Why are you cornering me on this one? I'm still learning. lol Yes, I know that not everyone who is non-autistic is normal. Believe me - I know. LOL (I'm trying to be funny here to squirm out of answering something I have no idea how to answer. )
As far as the wall - yes, I mean a real wall. Like if you were to look right now at the wall in front of you, what do you see? Are you focusing on one object and not really seeing everything else on the wall or are you seeing the wall and everything on it as a whole or what? I'm always curious about that for some reason.

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to come across as if I was cornering you. I was simply asking out of curiosity, I didn't realise that I was coming across that way in my post.

Hmm... I guess I'd see the whole wall unless I was really close to it, or if I was specifically looking for a detail to focus on. My attention would somewhat dart between various objects on the wall, but I'd mainly view it as a whole.

 

[Pats]

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to come across as if I was cornering you. I was simply asking out of curiosity, I didn't realise that I was coming across that way in my post.

Hmm... I guess I'd see the whole wall unless I was really close to it, or if I was specifically looking for a detail to focus on. My attention would somewhat dart between various objects of the wall, but I'd mainly view it as a whole.

I didn't really feel like you were cornering me - just I really didn't know how to answer because Nt's used all the time on this site and I'm just assuming who I think it includes.
Interesting about the wall. If I was at a strange place and looked at a wall for 5 minutes and looked away I could only tell you the one thing on the wall I'm actually looking at. There were shower games that things are placed on a tray and left in the room for so many minutes and then removed and people wrote down what they remember being on the tray. I always did so poorly at that game and I never knew why. But now I realize it's because I look at one object at a time - so I didn't have enough time to even look at every object. But there can be advantages to it, too - I see things and people always ask how did I see that? I just don't tell them that may have been the only thing I saw. lol My focus and peripheral vision is fine - I just can't force myself to look at the whole thing.

 

[TempeFan]

Life is a two way street. Some people travel on automatic and others are more autistamatic. I honestly don't think that all NT people OR all Aspy people have/lack empathy. I do think BOTH groups fail to give familiar signals that the other can readily understand. People from any type of diverse group don't understand people from another group as well as they do people from the same group who share the same experiences. People from all groups can be selective. Our group is just smaller, so there are less people who think as we do.

 

[Progster]

I didn't really feel like you were cornering me - just I really didn't know how to answer because Nt's used all the time on this site and I'm just assuming who I think it includes.
Interesting about the wall. If I was at a strange place and looked at a wall for 5 minutes and looked away I could only tell you the one thing on the wall I'm actually looking at. There were shower games that things are placed on a tray and left in the room for so many minutes and then removed and people wrote down what they remember being on the tray. I always did so poorly at that game and I never knew why. But now I realize it's because I look at one object at a time - so I didn't have enough time to even look at every object. But there can be advantages to it, too - I see things and people always ask how did I see that? I just don't tell them that may have been the only thing I saw. lol My focus and peripheral vision is fine - I just can't force myself to look at the whole thing.

When I look at a wall, I look only at one thing too, I look at one picture on the wall first, then I might move on to something else, another picture, going round the wall until I've seen everything on it. This is assuming I have time to look and no other distractions. I look at details first and build up a picture of the things as a whole. I don't think it's physically possible to see the whole wall at once; your eye can only focus on one narrow spot at once and everything else is peripheral. Your brain relies on your short term memory to build up a picture of the wall as a whole. It also makes a generalisation of what you see, 'this is a wall', rather than 'this is a collection of bricks'. I think that where we might differ from most NTS is that the NTs will see the wall first from the general shape, outline and context, and then hone in on the details of the wall, like individual bricks or pictures on the wall, whereas we will start with the details and then build up a picture, then conclude that it is a wall.
To illustrate this point, in a lesson with an NT student, we had a picture simular to this to practice numbers

:

The question was simply: how many?

My answer was 4.
The student's answer was one.