ND+ND=?

[MarcusAuralius]

Help please !
Long story short, I'm diagnosed ND, and have some good coping strategies in place and it's always a learning day on what works better.
Wife is not diagnosed, and anti-my diagnosis and doesn't like my diagnosis, and tries her best not to understand my diagnosis and not provide accommodations or coping. (yes it's difficult, somewhere we have passed the "until death do us" part section of the marriage vows, but I digress).

I understand it's relatively common during the "understanding and acceptance phase" and afterwards - to get a feeling when you're with relatives to start "pointing the finger" and going "oh my god you are too arn't you!" (not necessarily out loud, but you'd never be forgiven if you did by the NT's apparently...)

Anyway I had the pleasure of her brothers family for lunch over christmas. By the end of it I was (even more) convinced his entire family are ND, as is his Mother (my mother in Law), and of course - his sister - my wife.

(The only people I'm not so sure about in both our family trees are her dad and my dad (unfortunately passed away).)

So what's the best coping strategy with a wife that is *clearly* ND as well, when you're ND, but she hates the entire concept with a passion, and yet ND coping strategies work for her really well...she just won't admit it yet, or simply doesn't register with her...

Thanks in advance, all help with this ND+ND relationship, where one of them doesn't like any ND in her life ? all suggestions welcomed
M

 

[Atrapa Almas]

You are both humans.

Neurodivergence and Neurotypical are just ways to speak. If that way of speaking is not working, just find another one or don't use it.

She probably understands that she is somewhat different to other people in some areas, that is enough.

Medicine do work on patients who understand about how it works and on patients who don't understand how it works.

So give her what she needs without the ND label.

My wife also dislikes that ND stuff but understand very well "let's have some time to rest and enjoy our personal projects". She doesn't want nor need to understand whats burnout.

 

[Rodafina]

I agree with @Atrapa Almas. Maybe keep the focus on the challenges and the coping strategies. If she is not into the label, pushing it could likely cause resistance and resentment. But really, if you suspect you are both ND, this just allows you to understand each other a bit better. No need to label it, really.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Using the language "ND" or "Neurodiverse" to describe an autism spectrum disorder is a bit misrepresenting. It is "soft language" that is not helpful to those who are genuinely having difficulties that effect their daily living and need support. To me, neurodiverse is someone who "thinks differently", and certainly someone with an ASD often does "think differently", but neurodiversity can also include non-autistic individuals, and as such, using that language does not appear accurate. Even those with an Asperger's condition/ASD-1 diagnosis, those so-called "high functioning", even "high intellect" autistics, will have a different brain anatomy, their neural connectivity and conductivity is different, neurotransmitter imbalances, motor dysfunction (observable and subclinical), immune function dysfunction, and some will exhibit "stimming" behaviors, Visual Snow Syndrome, tinnitus, etc. An ASD-1/Asperger's condition is a different variant than that of "autism classic", but still has many of the signs and symptoms, at a lower intensity. It's not simply a "neurodiverse" condition, in and of itself.

That said, with any relationship, communication is going to be a critical element. Almost every conflict you have with your partner will likely have something to do with miscommunication. Context and perspective, being accurate with your language, pausing and using your "System 2" thinking, being aware of yourself and your cognitive biases, etc. will be important to a long-lasting relationship. My wife is somewhere between so-called "neurotypical" and autistic, as per the on-line testing, she falls in between on her scores, and certainly, she can exhibit some extremes of both. That said, we had to figure out a communication style that works for the both of us. We've been together roughly 38 years.

Furthermore, I would be careful with "assigning" anyone with a label, as just because you recognize certain behaviors some of the time, other times they might not behave that way. To be diagnosed with a "condition", it has to be more consistent/pervasive/repeatable.

 

[Rodafina]

To anyone, but especially you, @Neonatal RRT, Although there seem to be some genetic determinants of ASD, wouldn’t it be quite rare for so many family members to be fully autistic? I can’t get that 1 - 2% of the population out of my head and it seems like one or two people in a family would make more sense than the entire family. But I am not very knowledgeable in this area.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

To anyone, but especially you, @Neonatal RRT, Although there seem to be some genetic determinants of ASD, wouldn’t it be quite rare for so many family members to be fully autistic? I can’t get that 1 - 2% of the population out of my head and it seems like one or two people in a family would make more sense than the entire family. But I am not very knowledgeable in this area.

That 1-2% is if there are no familiar autists.

If one son is born autist, any other son has about 1/3 of chances of being autistic too. That is an average, just get the idea that is mostly generic so if both parents are autists chances will be higher than if just one parent is autistic.

If most people in the family are autists chances will be even higher. But its not fully genetic since there are cases of twin brothers who are genetically identics, where one is autistic and the other is not.

Epigenetics can make some gennes to become active and disactivate others, so the chances are never 100% of being autistic.

 

[NB79]

You could show to her 'autism traits' life experiences of other etc, you identify in her, and that are known, maybe she feels identified and start accepting the idea more.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

To anyone, but especially you, @Neonatal RRT, Although there seem to be some genetic determinants of ASD, wouldn’t it be quite rare for so many family members to be fully autistic? I can’t get that 1 - 2% of the population out of my head and it seems like one or two people in a family would make more sense than the entire family. But I am not very knowledgeable in this area.

I am thinking your thoughts are more in line with the truth. With familial autism variants, you may have some siblings with autism, but rarely all. You may have a grandfather, a father, and a son, but rarely more.

The latest one or two generations, the majority of autism appears to be a result of a "loading" of "de novo", epigenetic changes which we are still trying to sort out the etiology of.

 

[Rodafina]

The latest one or two generations, the majority of autism appears to be a result of a "loading" of "de novo", epigenetic changes which we are still trying to sort out the etiology of.

Thank you for the video!

 

[MarcusAuralius]

Thanks everyone, some good points on the general consensus is just give it a go and keep trying different approaches and don't label it or flag it. See what works and do yourself a favour.
Some of you are clearly experts in some of the specifics you discussed on here but for now that's a bit lost on me - just looking for assurances I'm not tubling into a massive moral tumble dryer and any suggestions !

 

[MarcusAuralius]

You could show to her 'autism traits' life experiences of other etc, you identify in her, and that are known, maybe she feels identified and start accepting the idea more.

I did that with a little example of her being overwhelmed when we have the radio on in the background and the kids are talking at the dinner table. She promptly went onto a support forum and complained about me gaslighting her. So - probably a bit tetchy about that possible approach.
Haven't dared share the 4page characteristic list I have describing her (few NT and) ND traits over the past 25 years - I think she'd leave. Oh wait, she is, so perhaps I might anyway. Turns out she can't cope with my diagnosis apparently impacted worse than I am (she's specifically said so), and she has the option to run away. Nice one. Lets see how this one works out in the end eh... give it time apparently - apparently I CAN change, because well you'know - that's what the diagnosis says all along, it's not been a lifelong problem that I've been working on or anything like that has it...

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I did that with a little example of her being overwhelmed when we have the radio on in the background and the kids are talking at the dinner table. She promptly went onto a support forum and complained about me gaslighting her. So - probably a bit tetchy about that possible approach.
Haven't dared share the 4page characteristic list I have describing her (few NT and) ND traits over the past 25 years - I think she'd leave. Oh wait, she is, so perhaps I might anyway. Turns out she can't cope with my diagnosis apparently impacted worse than I am (she's specifically said so), and she has the option to run away. Nice one. Lets see how this one works out in the end eh... give it time apparently - apparently I CAN change, because well you'know - that's what the diagnosis says all along, it's not been a lifelong problem that I've been working on or anything like that has it...

How has your diagnosis changed you? Are you the same person you were prior? If that is so, then why would anyone NOT cope with your diagnosis? If nothing has changed, then why isn't she coping? Seriously, the diagnosis should actually help with her understanding of context and perspective. You aren't a failed neurotypical with a personality disorder, you simply have an autism condition. That should be a relief.

Now that you have a diagnosis, does it explain much of your past interactions and life choices? Does it make sense to you?

What can you learn from this? Are you a person that, now you are self-aware, can put your life into context and perspective? Can you now become a better version of yourself with this knowledge?

Now, what you absolutely cannot do as a husband is bring up anything that has to do with HER potential ASD diagnosis. She has to realize it herself. Don't bring up any trait similarities in an off-handed way, etc. If she is sensitive about it, don't put salt in that wound. Let it go. She isn't ready. Respect it. Otherwise, you WILL have a problem on your hands. If you understand anything about social animals, including humans, "alpha" males are attracted to "alpha" females, and vice-versa. An "alpha" husband and wife team will ALWAYS support each other, never criticize, etc. You discuss things calmly, NEVER argue. You build each other up. Even around family, friends, and co-workers, you build her up, talk with admiration. It's really bad form for a spouse to complain about their partner behind their back. People take notice of that behavior as a character flaw.

Everyone has a process. Many of us, once we receive a diagnosis, find ourselves on a very steep learning curve about ourselves. How do I communicate more effectively now that I know that I may not be taking in all the subtle communication signals the other person is putting out to me? How do I formulate my questions and answers more accurately? How can I be more self aware of my cognitive biases? How can I pay closer attention to how my wife is communicating so that I can be a better husband? So on and so forth.

Frankly, you can look at this diagnosis as a problem, but you could also look at it as an opportunity to learn and be a better person. Instead of looking at it as something bad, you could look at it as something good.

Now, what NOT to do. 1. Make no mention of her potential ASD traits. You will have a disaster on your hands. If you have already, she might be quietly plotting your murder or something worse. If she does have an ASD, let her discover it for herself. Let it go.

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

I would focus on learning more about my own diagnosis and learn new coping skills.

That notebook of all the stuff she does that could be autistic? Throw it out if you want to stay in the marriage.

Just my 2c. Feel free to disregard.

 

[MarcusAuralius]

How has your diagnosis changed you? Are you the same person you were prior? If that is so, then why would anyone NOT cope with your diagnosis? If nothing has changed, then why isn't she coping? Seriously, the diagnosis should actually help with her understanding of context and perspective. You aren't a failed neurotypical with a personality disorder, you simply have an autism condition. That should be a relief.

Now that you have a diagnosis, does it explain much of your past interactions and life choices? Does it make sense to you?

What can you learn from this? Are you a person that, now you are self-aware, can put your life into context and perspective? Can you now become a better version of yourself with this knowledge?

Now, what you absolutely cannot do as a husband is bring up anything that has to do with HER potential ASD diagnosis. She has to realize it herself. Don't bring up any trait similarities in an off-handed way, etc. If she is sensitive about it, don't put salt in that wound. Let it go. She isn't ready. Respect it. Otherwise, you WILL have a problem on your hands. If you understand anything about social animals, including humans, "alpha" males are attracted to "alpha" females, and vice-versa. An "alpha" husband and wife team will ALWAYS support each other, never criticize, etc. You discuss things calmly, NEVER argue. You build each other up. Even around family, friends, and co-workers, you build her up, talk with admiration. It's really bad form for a spouse to complain about their partner behind their back. People take notice of that behavior as a character flaw.

Everyone has a process. Many of us, once we receive a diagnosis, find ourselves on a very steep learning curve about ourselves. How do I communicate more effectively now that I know that I may not be taking in all the subtle communication signals the other person is putting out to me? How do I formulate my questions and answers more accurately? How can I be more self aware of my cognitive biases? How can I pay closer attention to how my wife is communicating so that I can be a better husband? So on and so forth.

Frankly, you can look at this diagnosis as a problem, but you could also look at it as an opportunity to learn and be a better person. Instead of looking at it as something bad, you could look at it as something good.

Now, what NOT to do. 1. Make no mention of her potential ASD traits. You will have a disaster on your hands. If you have already, she might be quietly plotting your murder or something worse. If she does have an ASD, let her discover it for herself. Let it go.

All of this is pretty much what's going on. OH and she moved out for a "sabbatical" for four months yesterday, so there's that. See if it really is or if I'm being led down the naïve garden path to where the fantasy life faeries live..

regarding not talking to her about her - that cat leapt out of the bag, and well, I think it's been run over by events since.

Frankly - she is terrified herself of being diagnosed - she has little facial expression so in honesty it's difficult to tell at first sight and of course - I'm rubbish at spotting emotion in faces too - so that all helps.

She didn't want me to get a diagnosis, and her traits and behaviours are frankly more outstanding and the strengths are significantly stronger than mine (Photographic memory, engineering, 4 science alevels, stubborn as a mule, and that's the sweet icing layer).
I asked her on saturday "you still haven't told me why you were so against me asking my GP for a referral 5 years ago", and she replied "I believe I told you at the time". A brilliant non-answer. I pushed a bit, and got an angry rant about negative labelling and it's all just labels and really means nothing. My counselling skills training smells the pungent taste of denial.
She complains about my behaviour and when I go - "but you do this and this and this which is the same/identical/worse" she obviously lashes out and hits the emotional jackpot. I really do need to try to bottle up my insensitive reflex responses don't I ? - but she complains when I get a pen and paper out to slow things down, and complains about slow conversations that work, and wants fast conversations that don't work (as if to prove she can have a fast conversation and be understood without causing confusion... nope not here, everything ends up in poor quality rework, just like in rushed engineering factories, always costing more)

I'm now approaching the whole thing as anyone dealing with an irrational pattern of behaviour and denial - like someone who has to undergo phobia training, or conspiracy training re-education. Just like the brexit or victims of financial fraud, or deniers of climate change - it's a slow long process of - "here you go - take a look at this slightly inoffensive life changing fact, and it's not your fault, so accept it."

A gentle process of examples, thinking, testing, and having a go, workshops and education. Phobias of spiders is not cured by throwing spiders at people, and this is going to be my motto from now on.

She's attending an all about autism course with me these past few weeks and we have two more afternoons, there's some great worksheets on identifying your sensitivities and environmental triggers and getting to know oneself. I'd encourage anyone as ND or NT to do them, because knowing yourself is the hardest part of life.

And finally - yes I do know that change must come from within, I am - as I said in the original post - stood pointing and staring mouth wide open at all my relatives, and then trying to point somewhere else rapidly when they see me. Sorry about my social inadequacy everyone, I am trying. Honest. I changed my perception on my brother last week - did some solid active listening, and yes, I can wholeheartedly say if I talk and treat him as aspergers - then conversations with him in the future are going to be much much easier, even my 15yr old daughter noted the different tone.

So that's it for now on this, I know I opened pandoras box on this one, hopefully she left it a bit behind when she moved out yesterday... or maybe not.