Looking for advice on boundary issues

[GypsyMoth]

Hi all! So I've been selling my friend on what a great group we have here but she's happy living life outside of the internet. I've been trying to help her deal with a problem and since we are now both out of ideas, I asked her if she'd mind if I brought it to the group. She's fine with it -- probably only because she's nearly at her wit's end.

Here's the problem. Her adult son lives at home, has ASD, and some of his tics are driving her crazy. On the positive side, he's a good kid, early twenties, and has quite a few friends. (Plural!) On the not-so-positive side, she's dealing with some boundary issues with him. It might help to know that his dad died a couple of years ago and that the boundary issues problem began developing shortly thereafter.

Problem #1: Not respecting boundaries.
She works from home. When he comes home from school or work, she takes a short break to catch up on the day with him before returning back to work. The problem is, once he starts talking, sometimes he doesn't stop. Her general tactic then is to remind him that she's working and for him to go do something else--something else usually being getting dinner started. When that doesn't work, she'll escort him from her office. When that doesn't work and she's shut the door, and he's still chattering on about every event of the day in minute detail through the door, her frustration level just climbs. Not much sets her off, but this does! She's an Apsy and can't just 'tune' him out.

I have known him long enough and well enough to have seen other NT adults take the frustrated, "[name], STOP!" approach with him. I don't know how successful that tactic has been for her. My guess is not very well. I used to take the redirect-the-activity approach, which I thought worked pretty well, but he doesn't internalize that well at first and she's right--she really does need to get back to work and redirecting takes time.

Problem #2: Not keeping up with household chores.
He's responsible for doing the laundry. It can literally take him all day to do ONE load of laundry. Oh, he says he'll do it--I've heard him say quite cheerfully, "I'm on it!" And then, nothing happens. For hours. He's quite willing to wear clothes long after they ought to have been laundered, too. This leads me to...

Problem #3: Hygiene
Okay, so we've all met the person who doesn't want to bathe. Nobody wants to be around them! She's explained this to him but he still won't bathe. His reply? "People just have to accept me for who I am!" UGH! Any ideas on how to get him to bathe? Yes, he's an adult -- and no, she can't just threaten that he'll have to move out if he doesn't comply. He's not able to live on his own.

Ideas?

Thanks!

GypsyMoth

 

[Luca]

Oh boy, this reminds me of myself when I was a teenager...

I eventually just had to "grow up" and get my crap together and grow out of it. No amount of reprimanding and punishment from my parents ever resolved anything, it just led to arguing and tension, and believe me, I know how much I frustrated them. It was mutual lol
The "fixing" had to come from me taking accountability, and recognizing that I was the one who was unpleasant and needed to change (not my parents.) My behavior had consequences, not just from my parents. I was miserable too.

I don't think being overly harsh, critical, or demanding (as parents) really works for autistic kids/young adults. But I'm not saying she should just roll over and let him do whatever he wants either.

I think she needs to sit down with him and get him to have an adult conversation, and explain this to him in a way that it will "click" with him that his actions have a negative impact on her (and on him.) Something along the lines of "This household can't run smoothly with just one of us doing the work. You need to be responsible too."

Something that did help me a bit when I was younger was to have a set schedule for chores every day (I do basically the same thing now that I'm an independent adult running my own household.)
Like, take out the trash at 8am, do the dishes after breakfast at 10am, do laundry at 1pm, etc (and then have free time to do whatever I would like to do once all the chores/responsibilities are done.)
I still have a chore schedule, although now it's kind of intertwined with my work schedule.

Hope this was helpful... maybe she'll be able to take something useful away from this...

 

[Outdated]

He needs a girlfriend, that'll sort out #2 and #3 pretty quick.

 

[Knower of nothing]

2 and 3 could point at major executive dysfunction issues. It's possible these tasks have become associated with discomforts that far outweigh the benefit and sense of duty to do them. I personally suffer from it. The only thing that temporarily resolves it is for the discomfort of not doing it to outweigh that of doing it.
My only succesful work around has been to simply pay for professional help and keep all my trash and laundry separated so that despite regularly piling up it may only affect me. Thus lightening the load of my presence on family. It's a very long road to peace with yourself in that kind of situation, so I do hope it's for different reasons in his case.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Living independently solves a lot of issues, unless she has infantilized him under the guise of protection. The goal is to have him, as an adult out on his own as soon as is practical and learning the responsibility to take care of himself.

 

[Outdated]

It's possible these tasks have become associated with discomforts that far outweigh the benefit and sense of duty to do them. I personally suffer from it.

I'm pretty much the same. As a young man what drove me was the desire for a sex life. I dressed fairly well and was always neat and tidy, and my house was always spotless.

But I was most comfortable in dirty old overalls, I hated dressing up. Now I'm older I'm quite happy to live like a slob.

 

[GypsyMoth]

...Hope this was helpful... maybe she'll be able to take something useful away from this...

Very helpful! I will pass it along.

 

[GypsyMoth]

He needs a girlfriend, that'll sort out #2 and #3 pretty quick.

LOL!
Yeah, I'm passing this along, too. She has a great sense of humor--I'm sure she will enjoy hearing about it (I can see her rolling her eyes about now)

 

[GypsyMoth]

2 and 3 could point at major executive dysfunction issues. It's possible these tasks have become associated with discomforts that far outweigh the benefit and sense of duty to do them. I personally suffer from it. The only thing that temporarily resolves it is for the discomfort of not doing it to outweigh that of doing it.
My only succesful work around has been to simply pay for professional help and keep all my trash and laundry separated so that despite regularly piling up it may only affect me. Thus lightening the load of my presence on family. It's a very long road to peace with yourself in that kind of situation, so I do hope it's for different reasons in his case.

Thanks, @Knower of nothing. I'll share this with her--I'm sure she'll appreciate it.

 

[GypsyMoth]

Living independently solves a lot of issues, unless she has infantilized him under the guise of protection. The goal is to have him, as an adult out on his own as soon as is practical and learning the responsibility to take care of himself.

Hi @Gerald Wilgus, good thoughts, though I'm not sure that I see her coddling him. She is very adamant about protecting her independence and it is a quality I've seen her instill in her son--which is why this is all so very frustrating to her. But I'll pass it along.

He is unlikely to be able to live on his own for some time yet, although that is her goal. He's in a special program that teaches a trade, living skills, and gives him extra help in a supervised job program. Without the program's help, he's not been able to keep a job for more than a couple of days on his own. But he is excited about learning to cook and has taken up their grocery shopping--so he's not completely irresponsible. Just partially so.

 

[Crossbreed]

@GypsyMoth, is mom his guardian or representative payee/conservator? (Those are important to the OP questions.)

I am the guardian of my ASD3 daughter.

I was the rep payee to my ASD2 son. I was allowed to bill his account for his share of household expenses.
He has some serious executive function issues. He is not deliberately mean, but has some markedly dangerous impulsive behaviors. When he was a minor, I was big enough to intervene.
Once he turned 18, he could bring me to court for sustained injuries even if it was later proven that I acted in self-defense. I did not need that headache, rent money be damned.

Just before his 18th birthday, he was chomping at the bit about moving out, but because of his severity level, SSI would never pay him directly. They required a rep payee for him. I worked out a deal for him to go to a group home, which he jumped at. (It was much more difficult for him to manipulate them legally.) He is now in a supervised apartment and comes to visit once in a while.

 

[GypsyMoth]

@GypsyMoth, is mom his guardian or representative payee/conservator? (Those are important to the OP questions.)

Hmm... I'm not sure.

I am the guardian of my ASD3 daughter.

I was the rep payee to my ASD2 son. I was allowed to bill his account for his share of household expenses.
He has some serious executive function issues. He is not deliberately mean, but has some markedly dangerous impulsive behaviors. When he was a minor, I was big enough to intervene.
Once he turned 18, he could bring me to court for sustained injuries even if it was later proven that I acted in self-defense. I did not need that headache, rent money be damned.

Just before his 18th birthday, he was chomping at the bit about moving out, but because of his severity level, SSI would never pay him directly. They required a rep payee for him. I worked out a deal for him to go to a group home, which he jumped at. (It is much more difficult for him to manipulate them legally.) He is now in a supervised apartment and comes to visit once in a while.

Thanks for sharing. It sounds like your family has been through a lot. Hopefully your relationship with your son has improved somewhat.

She would like to keep him out of a group home. It's only come up once in passing. I think -- but am not sure -- that he might be ASD2. (It's just never seemed like an important question to ask.) They raised him as 'normally' as they could--in some ways, he is more well-adjusted and happy than most twenty-somethings! And he is goal-oriented and dedicated to learning a trade, so she just yet may see her dream for him to live independently realized. It may still take him a while...

I think you are right about the executive function. That seems to be the disconnect on the laundry. He knows how to do it. He just won't do it. And if he does get started, he gets...sidetracked. And then nothing gets finished. Like she's told me, she can't hand-hold him through every single step. Besides, he's already using a checklist for his daily activities. Some activities--like @Knower of nothing has suggested--are just a lot harder for him to connect with doing and finishing.

Would you mind my passing along your reply in its entirety to her? She's got some limited friends and family support, but I think she's a bit removed from the autism community. I've been able to share some current research topics with her that she didn't know about (and vice-versa -- she does know a lot). It might help her to hear other people's struggles and resolutions.

 

[Crossbreed]

Would you mind my passing along your reply in its entirety to her?

Sure.
Severity levels seem subjective, but if SSI requires a rep payee, that person is a 2 in their eyes.
If doctor & court order a guardianship (loss of majority privileges), that person is a de facto 3.
If neither applies, that person is taken to be a 1.

One's severity level can make one eligible for different support services.

My 28yo ASD3 daughter has a mental age of 18mos. so we don't have very high expectations for her contributions.

My ASD2 son [35] has a mental age of 6-10yo.

 

[GypsyMoth]

One's severity level can make one eligible for different support services.

Huh. I was wondering about all that. Thanks for enlightening me.

 

[Hypnalis]

There's always a fine line between Executive Dysfunction and "Weaponized Incompetence".

And some Aspies are inclined to do, or not do, things for which the consequences are severe, to the point of obvious and significant negative effects on their own lives.

IMO step one is a BS test.

The easy way to remember the testing principle: abusers who become enraged and smash stuff up somehow never smash their own things /lol.

The BS test is just to see if the kid takes care of things that matter to him. Your friend will know the answer already. The test is to contextualize it for her.

Important: the next step isn't to take away the few things that matter to him. He already has control through denial, inaction and refusal, and he won't let that go. So a "head-banging competition is out - push him and he'll happily go without washing (himself or the laundry) forever.

Your friend should plan an adult interaction.

Or, if she has been enabling him, you should plan one with her first.

BTW, "statistically" it's not unlikely she is contributing, but there's no data in your OP so I have no idea one way or the other. But if you look around here you'll see plenty of examples of "learned helplessness". That's another "fine line" that could have been be integrated into my first sentence. It's not easy to address, but nor is it impossible.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

It might help to know that his dad died a couple of years ago and that the boundary issues problem began developing shortly thereafter.

The problem is, once he starts talking, sometimes he doesn't stop.

It can literally take him all day to do ONE load of laundry.

He's quite willing to wear clothes long after they ought to have been laundered, too.

he still won't bathe. "People just have to accept me for who I am!"

He's 20 years old, but with the developmental delays associated with some variants of autism,...so, let's say he's closer to 12-13 years old in neurotypical development. He may also have an attention deficit disorder complicating things, as well. Furthermore, he has the trauma of his father passing away,...and not having a father figure in the home to help run interference for mom. That said,...

Does he know he is autistic? Has anyone sat down with him and explained what that is, what that means in terms of the social and communication rules of world around him? Part of being able to function within the neurotypical world,...is being self aware,...and then understanding the expectations,...and then adapt to situations within the context and perspective of one's own autism condition. Know thy self. Obviously, as a parent, we want our children to grow up to be good citizens and be able to function well in society with relative autonomy,...we can't always be there for our children.

1. The talking,...part of that is the autism,...monologuing,...get on a topic and run with it until you've exhausted your thoughts. Part of that is not being self-aware that people don't like that,...they don't want to listen to your lecture. Part of that is the fact that dad is gone,...with some trauma associated with that,...and mom is the one he has a strong bond with. She may be all he has,...literally.

2. The lack of focus on chores. Part of that is his developmental delay,...if we were to consider he may be acting quite appropriate for a 12-13 year old boy,...Lord,...I have been through that, twice. Part of that may actually be an attention deficit. Part of that may be parenting,...set a timer on getting things done if you have to,...with negative consequences if he doesn't,...and rewards if he completes the task within the time limit. Carrot and stick.

3. Hygiene. Again, self awareness and socialization skills. Neurodiversity acceptance or not, if you actually smell bad, and are making people avoid you,...you will be further isolated.

I think, in this case, if he hears it from someone else,...not his mother,...he may be more receptive. Again, if developmentally, he is a young teen,...he may not listen to his parent. This may be better dealt with in a professional manner,...group therapy,...the two of them sitting down with a therapist and discussing things in a very open and intimate way. I am sure he is a good kid,...his autism may be hindering his perspective taking at this time,...and he might not be fully grasping the situation.

 

[Crossbreed]

He's 20 years old, but with the developmental delays associated with some variants of autism,...so, let's say he's closer to 12-13 years old in neurotypical development.

Having the majority standing of a 20yo with the sensibilities of a tween is where the problem arises. It ties [mom's] hands in so many ways.

 

[GypsyMoth]

He's 20 years old,

Well, early twenties.

but with the developmental delays associated with some variants of autism,...so, let's say he's closer to 12-13 years old in neurotypical development. He may also have an attention deficit disorder complicating things, as well. Furthermore, he has the trauma of his father passing away,...and not having a father figure in the home to help run interference for mom. That said,...

That's about where he's at. I always picture when he's in his early thirties he'll have caught up to where his peers are now. And you're right, the passing away of his dad was very traumatic.

Does he know he is autistic? Has anyone sat down with him and explained what that is, what that means in terms of the social and communication rules of world around him?

He's aware of it. Shortly after I met him, he actually gave me an overview of what autism was in a few brief sentences. He's extremely articulate and knowledgeable, and is a great ambassador! His peers and the other adult staff I worked with would say--about any topic--if you want to know all about [whatever], just go ask ___. It was always said good-naturedly and, in looking back, I think that was part of his ticket into a lot of the social activities he had in school. Because he was so communicative and has always been a very good child, it helped dispel the mistrust people sometimes have of those who are different.

About social rules, oh boy, he can tell you what the rules are! He's just choosing not to live by them. That's what makes it so frustrating!

Part of being able to function within the neurotypical world,...is being self aware,...and then understanding the expectations,...and then adapt to situations within the context and perspective of one's own autism condition. Know thy self.

I've been wondering about how to communicate to him about boundaries, limits, and showing respect in a way in which he could accept and grow. Any ideas?

Obviously, as a parent, we want our children to grow up to be good citizens and be able to function well in society with relative autonomy,...we can't always be there for our children.

Something he's come face-to-face with already. I've wondered, it wasn't until after he went through two major life changes in a fairly short time and then started taking on more responsibilities of being an adult that he entered this rebellious phase. Is it fair to call it a phase? I'm not aware of his previously ever having been so...well, set in his ways. At least not when it came to showing respect to his family and others.

1. The talking,...part of that is the autism,...monologuing,...get on a topic and run with it until you've exhausted your thoughts. Part of that is not being self-aware that people don't like that,...they don't want to listen to your lecture. Part of that is the fact that dad is gone,...with some trauma associated with that,...and mom is the one he has a strong bond with. She may be all he has,...literally.

His mom is pretty much all he has. About the monologuing, is it fair to say it's like stimming in that it's more of a compulsion to self-soothe on some level than it is to communicate? How might that level of self-awareness be taught?

I, ah, had a bit of trouble with this myself. I've lost at least three friendships over carpooling from one place to another and not stopping to take a breath during the entire, um, ...ten hours. It's not a good way to win friends.

2. The lack of focus on chores. Part of that is his developmental delay,...if we were to consider he may be acting quite appropriate for a 12-13 year old boy,...Lord,...I have been through that, twice. Part of that may actually be an attention deficit. Part of that may be parenting,...set a timer on getting things done if you have to,...with negative consequences if he doesn't,...and rewards if he completes the task within the time limit. Carrot and stick.

You know, put into the context of being a teen, it fits. He is acting exactly like a teen. (Twice--two boys? Fun! Had I ever had kids, I think I was secretly hoping for girls after having visited my aunt's and the atrocious way my boy cousins kept their bathroom when they were teens...gross!)

The timer idea sounds really good. I've tried brainstorming positive and negative consequences with my friend but we're kind of at a loss. I mean, he has his own phone, his own car, he can come and go as he pleases, has a job. Superficially, he seems like a functional twenty-something. We're not sure what the carrot or the stick looks like.

3. Hygiene. Again, self awareness and socialization skills. Neurodiversity acceptance or not, if you actually smell bad, and are making people avoid you,...you will be further isolated.

No kidding. (Gosh, the more I learn about this stuff the more I can see myself on the spectrum as a kid. I had this aversion to bathing, too, probably worse than he has it. Lasted from middle school until college, when the social ridicule caught up with me--although I did keep up on it sporadically, but mostly due to peer pressure. I finally wasn't embarrassed, just fed up with what I thought were undeserved comments. Today I'd be terribly embarrassed! I can't believe people put up with me!!! At least if I'm going to skip a day or two, I don't leave the house. And not leaving the house on the weekends has been made so much more socially acceptable by Covid.)

I am wondering, not sure if I mentioned it before, he seems to have a peer in his program who has preceded him in all this...err, social rebellion. Do you think addressing that might help? Let's say, in a manner that shows that his peer's example is not approved of and how this peer's behavior affects the way people think about the peer? (My step-kids came pre-raised so I have no real advice to offer her here.) And then tie it to how his is affecting people in the same way, so that the illustration is direct?

I think, in this case, if he hears it from someone else,...not his mother,...he may be more receptive. Again, if developmentally, he is a young teen,...he may not listen to his parent. This may be better dealt with in a professional manner,...group therapy,...the two of them sitting down with a therapist and discussing things in a very open and intimate way. I am sure he is a good kid,...his autism may be hindering his perspective taking at this time,...and he might not be fully grasping the situation.

I can really see that, what you just said about his autism perhaps hindering his perspective. Whatever this new, clothing-on-repeat appeal is, and the lack of respect for his mother's space, is wearing on their household peace. I know some of what my friend's plans are, and I will definitely mention the suggestion that they have a heart-to-heart with a therapist who can help navigate. His former youth group leader has stayed in touch with him as a mentor. He's been a great help to their family; maybe he can help negotiate?

And he is a terrific kid. This makes it harder for mom, as she's never had to deal with such an openly rebellious son before--especially one that really doesn't have a history of doing anything else upsetting. He's just not grasping the situation at all.

Thanks for the feedback! It's greatly appreciated!

 

[GypsyMoth]

Having the majority standing of a 20yo with the sensibilities of a tween is where the problem arises. It ties [mom's] hands in so many ways.

Agreed. You can't be teaching independence while enforcing rules thought out-grown.

 

[Gerontius]

Hi all! So I've been selling my friend on what a great group we have here but she's happy living life outside of the internet. Consider me jealous. I've been trying to help her deal with a problem and since we are now both out of ideas, I asked her if she'd mind if I brought it to the group. She's fine with it -- probably only because she's nearly at her wit's end.
Here's the problem. Her adult son lives at home, has ASD, and some of his tics are driving her crazy. On the positive side, he's a good kid, early twenties, and has quite a few friends. (Plural!) On the not-so-positive side, she's dealing with some boundary issues with him. It might help to know that his dad died a couple of years ago and that the boundary issues problem began developing shortly thereafter. Part of me thinks that he respected the boundaries of his father's imposing, that he maybe associated boundaries & good manners with his dad, or that maybe the father was the disciplinarian in the household--or a compilation of all that.

Problem #1: Not respecting boundaries.
She works from home. When he comes home from school or work, she takes a short break to catch up on the day with him before returning back to work. The problem is, once he starts talking, sometimes he doesn't stop. Her general tactic then is to remind him that she's working and for him to go do something else--something else usually being getting dinner started. When that doesn't work, she'll escort him from her office. When that doesn't work and she's shut the door, and he's still chattering on about every event of the day in minute detail through the door, her frustration level just climbs. Not much sets her off, but this does! She's an Apsy and can't just 'tune' him out. See, this is something he should've never been allowed to start. What's hard is communicating to people that "Dude, I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain to you why this is irritating, but -- Nobody is rejecting you. However, I have to focus on something else, and this gets really tedious sometimes." Figuring out how to tone that back even further is the hard part instead of doing like the folks do below and --

I have known him long enough and well enough to have seen other NT adults take the frustrated, "[name], STOP!" approach with him. --and this exactly. It is mostly cathartic for the one who wants the other to shut up. I don't know how successful that tactic has been for her. My guess is not very well. I used to take the redirect-the-activity approach, which I thought worked pretty well, but he doesn't internalize that well at first and she's right--she really does need to get back to work and redirecting takes time.This is a matter usually of empathy--but good news, empathy is teachable! Most people have the natural capacity for Being Nice, and contrary to myth, so do autistic folks like us!

Problem #2: Not keeping up with household chores.
He's responsible for doing the laundry. It can literally take him all day to do ONE load of laundry. Oh, he says he'll do it--I've heard him say quite cheerfully, "I'm on it!" And then, nothing happens. For hours. He's quite willing to wear clothes long after they ought to have been laundered, too. This leads me to...telephone the Volunteer Fire Brigade to hose him off once in awhile, I don't know. I wear stuff for days at a time but it's outer layers, heavyweight woolens designed for that. Shirts and undergarments need washing! There is no compromising here. If he realizes that other people depend on him, that he's hurting people by sitting around, maybe he would do more. Hard to communicate this to someone in his shoes though.

Problem #3: Hygiene
Okay, so we've all met the person who doesn't want to bathe. Nobody wants to be around them! She's explained this to him but he still won't bathe. His reply? "People just have to accept me for who I am!" UGH! Any ideas on how to get him to bathe? Yes, he's an adult -- and no, she can't just threaten that he'll have to move out if he doesn't comply. He's not able to live on his own. If he starts, he's going to have to figure out in a hurry, far as that moving-out business. Broski here needs to get over the "people have to accept me!" stuff. If he keeps going around with a potato patch of dirt stuck to him he shouldn't be surprised if people water him with a tin can and start chasing him around with a Flit gun to dust him for aphids!
Now I can speak from experience here that bathing is something that some people do not know how to do. I didn't know how to get a bath for most of my life, partly because I was & am not one to go around naked in front of people. Didn't realize that you need to get a washcloth & actually scrub your neck, realized that when I found that my skin naturally needs to slough off so I use a washcloth religiously now & actually it's great.
Something I'm starting to suspect is that I had sensory issues about washing. This is something I would have vehemently denied at the time because I used to like just hanging out in the hot water from the shower, like one of those Japanese monkeys in a hot spring. I'd come out of the shower pink as a boiled Englishman and still not be quite clean.
Have since overcome that stuff though. Stay clean & look keen.

Ideas?

Thanks!

GypsyMoth