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Infections and autism

Martha Ferris said:
This just came up on my news feed and I thought it might be of interest to some of you.

Viral Infections in May Be Linked to Autism in Boys, Study Suggests (businessinsider.com)
Click to expand...
I consider this to be speculation, especially as correlation is not causation. Mice lie, monkeys exaggerate. The only recent animal study that I've seen recently regarding neurochemistry is the breakdown of the blood-brain barrier that allows toxic peptide-lipid complexes to enter the brain to cause Alzeheimer's dementia. It still needs to be confirmed in humans.
 
Gerald Wilgus said:
I consider this to be speculation, especially as correlation is not causation. Mice lie, monkeys exaggerate. The only recent animal study that I've seen recently regarding neurochemistry is the breakdown of the blood-brain barrier that allows toxic peptide-lipid complexes to enter the brain to cause Alzeheimer's dementia. It still needs to be confirmed in humans.
Click to expand...

Did you read the article?
 
Yes , I did, and had a 1,001 questions about the postulated mechanisms, especially after the deliberately created dysfunction of the innate immune system, especially when many viral antigens or interleukin-like modulators cannot cross the blood-brain barrier. Without direct measurement of cell activity in humans, this will go nowhere.
 
I confess, I haven't read the article. When I first saw it a couple of weeks ago I was instantly put off. Autisim is known to be a neurological disorder. Our brains are wired differently.
I have no doubt that viruses can cause autisim like symptoms. After all we know that viruses have been proven to cause other diseases such as lymphoma.

But the title suggests that viruses CAUSE autisim and that immediately puts a false spin on the subject and denis the neurological connection to autisim.

So, even if the study has merit, the article is poorly written with bias and so, can not offer any value to me as a lay person.
 
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Gerald Wilgus said:
Yes , I did, and had a 1,001 questions about the postulated mechanisms, especially after the deliberately created dysfunction of the innate immune system, especially when many viral antigens or interleukin-like modulators cannot cross the blood-brain barrier. Without direct measurement of cell activity in humans, this will go nowhere.
Click to expand...
As an engineer, I never trust "evidence". Evidence regardless of frequency or how convincing, is still just evidence. Evidence is never proof of anything. Proof is always in the mechanism of action. If ALL of the elements of the mechanism of action are not known, then proof has not been established.
 
Ken said:
As an engineer, I never trust "evidence". Evidence regardless of frequency or how convincing, is still just evidence. Evidence is never proof of anything. Proof is always in the mechanism of action. If ALL of the elements of the mechanism of action are not known, then proof has not been established.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. I treat everything as provisional in the biological sciences until there is confirmation by independent means of verification. That observation is just that, an observation of an effect of a forcing action. I dislike speculation of general effect from such scant evidence. One confounding variable is the state of endothelial tissue, such as the linings of capillaries, which can create a neurological effect merely by altering the permeability of vessels in the brain. Most of the time this is transient. The citation does not reveal how confounding variables were treated.

Plus, I hate hype. You see that a lot with premature claims of gene/metabolic-repair editing. Even the methods with the greatest specificity end up putting information at sites it should not incorporate because the researchers forgot the fact that all you need is a 10 base pair homology for recombination to occur, and for such a small homolog, the genome is a target rich environment.
 
Related articles:
Association between Viral Infections and Risk of Autistic Disorder: An Overview
https://drexel.edu/now/archive/2021/August/Autistic-Individuals-Increased-Risk-of-COVID-19/
Could autism spectrum disorders be a risk factor for COVID-19?
https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=116111

If we do a search for "autism and immune function", "autism and melatonin", "autism and viral infection",...you get quite a few hits with articles and PDF files.

Some of the results are a bit mixed depending upon the population, pediatric vs. adults,...and of course, these are statistical analysis. Autistics, as a group, appear to have an increased risk of more severe inflammatory responses to infections,...statistically speaking. In other words, not ALL autistics may fall into an "immune dysfunction" or "immunocompromised" category,...it's still individualized. Unfortunately, one will never know until you have some history of severe responses to infections,...or not,...or,...you actually have immune function and inflammatory mediator levels measured by a laboratory. Some autistics have a low melatonin level,...and melatonin does have some antioxidant and immune function roles in the body. Some autistics have an excess amount of immune function cells in the brain. Some autistics have an excess amount of oxygen radicals in the brain. Some autistics have a more porous blood-brain barrier. Some autistics have "hyper-responsive" inflammatory responses to injuries, surgical procedures, post exercise muscle soreness, allergies, and so on. However, not all,...but statistically speaking,...there appears to be a body of evidence to suggest some caution and some awareness with regards to one's risk factors for contracting a more severe case of common infections.
 
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While it is a possibility, they haven't proven anything. To quote from the article:

"might make a future diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder more likely in men who are genetically predisposed to the condition.

Here they are saying that early brain damage from infections might make your autism symptoms worse. Well, duh! It is also begging the question that one can be genetically predisposed for autism and not actually have it.

"boys diagnosed with autism were more commonly hospitalized with infections between the ages of 1.5 and 4 than boys who didn't have autism"

Autism doesn't suddenly hit later in life. You can tell a child is autistic in late infancy if you know what to look for. That's before the 1.5 to 4 year window. Plus it doesn't show that autism didn't contribute to the increase in infections.

It goes on to explain:

"some traits commonly associated with autism, such as difficulty communicating verbally or recognizing familiar faces"

OK, "some traits commonly associated with autism" isn't autism. Not even close. Those are traits also associated with a number of other brain conditions. Plus there are many people on the spectrum who do not have those particular problems.

This appears only to apply to those specific traits and only applies to males. The large majority of people on the spectrum are left out. Especially females. All you ladies are out of luck.

Most importantly, the evidence of autism being primarily genetic is overwhelming. Genetic factors are all that are necessary to explain 80% of all cases. The uterine environment may have an impact but that is less clear. While this points out the possibility that early childhood infection might have a role in later developmental difficulties, it overstates its significance by a lot.

The researchers are, of course, looking for more funding. This is done by overstating results, speculating wildly, and exaggerating potential

I don't think Business Insider is a good judge of neurological medicine but it does know what will grab readership.

AAAS
 
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Martha Ferris said:
This just came up on my news feed and I thought it might be of interest to some of you.

Viral Infections in May Be Linked to Autism in Boys, Study Suggests (businessinsider.com)
Click to expand...
I didn't read the article. I have no intention of doing so. This is a summary appearing in a business magazine of a technical paper. These articles are generally written by reporters who do not understand the science or methodology used in the original paper. They are almost invariably wrong and sensationalistic, misinterpreting the paper and the results. I ignore them unless they are in a science or specialist oriented publication.
 
watersprite said:
Please take care what you allow to influence & consequently share as though it’s fact. There are many things which come up on someone’s “news feed” which should go straight through to the compost.
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I posted as something to consider not as fact. I made no statement as to the accuracy of the findings.
 
Au Naturel said:
While it is a possibility, they haven't proven anything. To quote from the article:

"might make a future diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder more likely in men who are genetically predisposed to the condition.

Here they are saying that early brain damage from infections might make your autism symptoms worse. Well, duh! It is also begging the question that one can be genetically predisposed for autism and not actually have it.

"boys diagnosed with autism were more commonly hospitalized with infections between the ages of 1.5 and 4 than boys who didn't have autism"

Autism doesn't suddenly hit later in life. You can tell a child is autistic in late infancy if you know what to look for. That's before the 1.5 to 4 year window. Plus it doesn't show that autism didn't contribute to the increase in infections.

It goes on to explain:

"some traits commonly associated with autism, such as difficulty communicating verbally or recognizing familiar faces"

OK, "some traits commonly associated with autism" isn't autism. Not even close. Those are traits also associated with a number of other brain conditions. Plus there are many people on the spectrum who do not have those particular problems.

This appears only to apply to those specific traits and only applies to males. The large majority of people on the spectrum are left out. Especially females. All you ladies are out of luck.

Most importantly, the evidence of autism being primarily genetic is overwhelming. Genetic factors are all that are necessary to explain 80% of all cases. The uterine environment may have an impact but that is less clear. While this points out the possibility that early childhood infection might have a role in later developmental difficulties, it overstates its significance by a lot.

The researchers are, of course, looking for more funding. This is done by overstating results, speculating wildly, and exaggerating potential

I don't think Business Insider is a good judge of neurological medicine but it does know what will grab readership.

AAAS
Click to expand...

I posted the article as something of interest, information to consider. I made no statement as to fact. Perhaps a discussion would ensue regarding the arrticle.
 
Neonatal RRT said:
Related articles:
Association between Viral Infections and Risk of Autistic Disorder: An Overview
Report: Autistic Individuals Have Increased Risk of COVID-19 - DrexelNow
Could autism spectrum disorders be a risk factor for COVID-19?
https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=116111

If we do a search for "autism and immune function", "autism and melatonin", "autism and viral infection",...you get quite a few hits with articles and PDF files.

Some of the results are a bit mixed depending upon the population, pediatric vs. adults,...and of course, these are statistical analysis. Autism, as a group, appears to have an increased risk of more severe inflammatory responses to infections,...statistically speaking. In other words, not ALL autistics may fall into a "immune dysfunction" or "immunocompromised" category,...it's still individualized. Unfortunately, one will never know until you have some history of severe responses to infections,...or not,...or,...you actually have immune function and inflammatory mediator levels measured by a laboratory. Some autistics have a low melatonin level,...and melatonin does have some antioxidant and immune function roles in the body. Some autistics have an excess amount of immune function cells in the brain. Some autistics have an excess amount of oxygen radicals in the brain. Some autistics have a more porous blood-brain barrier. However, not all,...but statistically speaking,...there appears to be a body of evidence to suggest some caution and some awareness with regards to one's risk factors for contracting a more severe case of common infections.
Click to expand...


Thank you for your response it is much appreciated. It is what I was hoping for when I posted the article.
 
Gerald Wilgus said:
Yes , I did, and had a 1,001 questions about the postulated mechanisms, especially after the deliberately created dysfunction of the innate immune system, especially when many viral antigens or interleukin-like modulators cannot cross the blood-brain barrier. Without direct measurement of cell activity in humans, this will go nowhere.
Click to expand...

I posted this as something to consider not as something that I consider conclusive. I made no statement as to what I thought about the article yet people have replied as if I had. Assumptions. I don't do assumptions. I thought a discussion might follow but the only one who responded to my intent was Neonatal RT. I will forego such postings in the future.
 
Martha Ferris said:
I posted this as something to consider not as something that I consider conclusive. I made no statement as to what I thought about the article yet people have replied as if I had. Assumptions. I don't do assumptions. I thought a discussion might follow but the only one who responded to my intent was Neonatal RT. I will forego such postings in the future.
Click to expand...
You need not. The article was certainly food for thought. As was indicated there is a correlation with immune function (either innate or humoral). I am beginning to understand that ASD has pleirotropic effects, that is, multiple effects from the expression of diverse genes.
 
@Martha Ferris ;

I didn’t read it because it required me to unblock my ad blocks and I refuse to do that. I do however understand and have read up on the topic quite a bit!

Thank you for posting this, You are on to something! Having genetic conditions for years and being misdiagnosed several times over by people that were suppose to know what they are doing per the certificates on the wall, however I found that their education wasn’t worth the paper nor did it reflect any intellectual information that the person proposed to have! A person could write a child’s book and earn the title doctor, the title is used so much it has little relevance or respect any longer. Sad but true.

Autism apparently has a lot of what is being called autism symptoms that has nothing to do with what most think of in autism. How can this be right?!

My personal thought after reading so much is that is has everything to do with the gut, the mind/stomach connection. Even enzymes I believe are connected to how our minds work.

Below is an article on how important Melatonin is for Autism, but also its important for the chinese flu.

Something else to take a look at is how closely related Lyme disease is with the chinese flu - very similar symptoms and treatment. I’ve read many places where Ivermectin will work for Lyme too!

Please don’t stop posting because someone shot you down due to a different opinion, I like what you say and in agreement and believe there are others that are thinking the same but don’t have the gonads to post it like you did!

You Rock Martha! :)

Autism Spectrum Disorder patients may be susceptible to COVID-19 disease due to deficiency in melatonin - PubMed
 
ForestGumpett said:
@Martha Ferris ;

I didn’t read it because it required me to unblock my ad blocks and I refuse to do that. I do however understand and have read up on the topic quite a bit!

Thank you for posting this, You are on to something! Having genetic conditions for years and being misdiagnosed several times over by people that were suppose to know what they are doing per the certificates on the wall, however I found that their education wasn’t worth the paper nor did it reflect any intellectual information that the person proposed to have! A person could write a child’s book and earn the title doctor, the title is used so much it has little relevance or respect any longer. Sad but true.

Autism apparently has a lot of what is being called autism symptoms that has nothing to do with what most think of in autism. How can this be right?!

My personal thought after reading so much is that is has everything to do with the gut, the mind/stomach connection. Even enzymes I believe are connected to how our minds work.

Below is an article on how important Melatonin is for Autism, but also its important for the chinese flu.

Something else to take a look at is how closely related Lyme disease is with the chinese flu - very similar symptoms and treatment. I’ve read many places where Ivermectin will work for Lyme too!

Please don’t stop posting because someone shot you down due to a different opinion, I like what you say and in agreement and believe there are others that are thinking the same but don’t have the gonads to post it like you did!

You Rock Martha! :)

Autism Spectrum Disorder patients may be susceptible to COVID-19 disease due to deficiency in melatonin - PubMed
Click to expand...


Thank you. I needed this and was about to leave the group primarily because I have a huge intolerance for assumptions being made and, in my opinion based on my experience, those in the ASD community make far more assumptions than those in the NT community about others. I had hoped to have a conversation and nothing more instead I got the above. I made no claim about the article or my opinion of it. I enjoy thinking about a lot of things and seek to understand why and this article offered information about something I had not heard about. That doesn't mean I don't have questions.

I read a wide variety of articles and try to limit those only by credibility. Business Insider as determined by mediabiasfactcheck.com is: MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY

My decision to leave was not just about the responses to this post but I am again exhausted by trying to fit in. By turning myself into a pretzel to belong which I did not think I would have to do here. It seems I am too autistic to get along in the NT world but not autistic enough to get along in the ND world. I have felt this for sometime.

Again thanks for the support.
 
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