Inability to say no.

[Ylva]

I know you're probably sick of my ABA-posts, but this one has an extremely good point:

Social skills for autonomous people. — Appearing to enjoy behavior modificiation is not...

ABA-sessions are just poorly executed acting classes. Ones there is no choice in whether to go to.

Not written by me.

One common response to criticism of ABA is to claim that people subjected to it enjoy it:

• “My child loves his therapist and asks to go to sessions!”
• “All of my clients smile and have fun!”
• “My ABA is play based!”

What people forget is that affect is a set of behaviors, and that behavior modification methods work as well on affective behaviors as they do on anything else:

• You can reinforce people to look happy
• You can reinforce people to praise therapy
• It doesn’t have to be an explicit part of the behavior plan to happen
• And it can keep happening even after you fade direct prompts or direct intentional reinforcers

ABA programs give the therapist massive power over the person. That power in itself can cause people to look happy, through a more subtle reinforcement mechanism than takes place on a behavior plan:

• If you have power over someone in the way that behavior therapists do, they’re going to be highly motivated to please you
• If they figure out that you want to believe that they are happy, they are very likely to act like they are
• If you treat them better when they display the affect you want or praise you, they’re likely to act happy.
• It doesn’t mean they’re actually happy
• Or that what you’re doing is good for them

(Also, affect often is an explicit part of someone’s behavior plan. It is not at all uncommon for ABA programs to involve actively ignoring distress and withholding attention and rewards until someone looks happy. It is not at all uncommon for ABA programs to involve teaching people to smile, to hug, or to otherwise do things that would out-of-context indicate happiness, enjoyment, or affection. It doesn’t have the same meaning if it’s prompted or trained.)

Also, programs based on positive reinforcement involving controlling someone’s access to stuff they care about:

• The first step in a program based on positive reinforcement is to find out what someone most enjoys or cares about
• (This is called a preference assessment or a reinforcement inventory. Here’s an example.)
• And then making sure they have no access (or limited access) to those things outside of sessions or other situations in which someone is actively reinforcing them to do something
• Of course if someone’s only access to everything important to them happens in sessions they will ask for sessions
• That doesn’t mean they like the fact that someone has that level of power over them
• (No one likes being manipulated that way.)
• That doesn’t mean they like the things that the therapist makes them do
• That doesn’t mean the power dynamic is harmless
• That doesn’t mean ABA is a good approach to teaching

People who can’t say no, can’t say yes meaningfully. Looking happy isn’t meaningful if you’re rewarded for affecting happiness and punished for looking visibly distressed. Making the best of a bad situation isn’t consent.

 

[tree]

I can't be sick of them, because I didn't know what ABA was.
The little article didn't explain what the letters were for either.
So I looked at this (because it wasn't promoting a clinic or
something.

Applied behavior analysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[qwerty]

This breaks my heart @Yiva I have not read
any of your other posts on this subject, but I
I too would be concerned about this approach.

As that oh so famous study of the impact
power differentials have on peoples psyche.
(The prison mock up with students randomly
selected as guards and inmates.)
Intentionally exercising dominance over any
person when the person subjected to this
dominance is punished for resisting would
have to be one of the most dangerous
scenarios to be involved in, terrifying really,
for both the influencer and the influenced.

This kind of approach reminds me of the
reeducation treatments in Orwell's 1984.
When did we stop wanting to understand
someone out of curiosity, compassion and
a desire to understand and help?
(sweeping generalisation, not true in many cases)

I haven't yet read more about this so this is
pretty much an emotional knee jerk reactive
post.

Thanks Tree for the link.

Oh by the way... tree hug your it

 

[ChrisC1983]

i only recently heard of ABA...... and honestly i'm too tired right now to read the article (fuzzy eyed.. i can type though since i know where the keys are lol)..
anyway.. literally speaking... i grew up in an optionless household. things were presented as an option, but you quickly learned it was only deceitful wording. if i was asked to do something and said no, i was yelled at, insulted, and made to feel terrible about not helping for the rest of the day.. sometimes the rest of the week depending on various factors (generally not so much what the task was, more based on what their mood was in relation to the task) of course, if i said yes.. i was still usually doing the task incorrectly (even if it was as simple as holding tools.. i would pass them the wrong way the 1st time, then switch the way i passed them and it would still be wrong because i should have known the right way the first time) so there wasn't really any positive outcome once a task was assigned to me.

at times.. honestly.. i wish i was just hit a lot. it's an easier thing to deal with and move on from

 

[AsheSkyler]

Sounds like basic psychology to me, although suggesting it's used for nefarious purposes in this case.

Would that actually work on anybody here? Does the amount of willpower of the patient come into play? There have been a few times when I've been dealing with a bad situation and I've had some of those methods above applied to me, and it didn't make me feel better about the thing I was dealing with, nor made me want to keep company with that person.

 

[Ylva]

Sounds like basic psychology to me, although suggesting it's used for nefarious purposes in this case.

Reminds me of the episode of Big Bang Theory where Sheldon tries to train Penny out of her annoying habits by giving her chocolate. My dislike for Sheldon was cemented with that episode.

Which might have been a point the writers were trying to make. No one would ever consider doing that to a neurotypical child; it's too disrespectful.

Would that actually work on anybody here? Does the amount of willpower of the patient come into play?

Depends. As a child (<14) in ABA-therapy I would have quietly rebelled, and even ignored my brainwashers, but I'd have a breaking point. I had one when it came to school bullying, despite my lofty ideals of independence and nonconformity, and I'd have one when it came to active brainwashing by adults.

If someone takes liberties with me now, I'll ignore them so hard they start questioning their own existence.

 

[tree]

Oh by the way... tree hug you're it

I will be It a long time,
unless I know the rules.

 

[qwerty]

I will be It a long time,
unless I know the rules.

I randomly made up a game of hug tag
after learning how to tag someone.
A cross forum game where ya just tag
someone n hug em, like tag normal tag
just without the contact and the addition
of much more confusion lol

You will be "IT" until you tag n hug someone else.
Hmmm maybe without the hug, shrug may freak
some people out.

 

[tree]

I randomly made up a game of hug tag
after learning how to tag someone.
A cross forum game where ya just tag
someone n hug em, like tag normal tag
just without the contact and the addition
of much more confusion lol

You will be "IT" until you tag n hug someone else.
Hmmm maybe without the hug, shrug may freak
some people out.

I thought Hug Tag sounded like a fun game.
I looked up "Hug Tag" today. Apparently,
a person is Safe while Hugged.

So that's the good part.
The tricky part is when people play it IRL,
there is a time limit on the duration of
Safe Time.

 

[qwerty]

I thought Hug Tag sounded like a fun game.
I looked up "Hug Tag" today. Apparently,
a person is Safe while Hugged.

So that's the good part.
The tricky part is when people play it IRL,
there is a time limit on the duration of
Safe Time.

It's a real game????
wowsers

 

[tree]

It's a real game????
wowsers

Yep.
Hug Tag - The Ultimate Camp Resource
Hug Tag - DeepFUN

 

[AsheSkyler]

Reminds me of the episode of Big Bang Theory where Sheldon tries to train Penny out of her annoying habits by giving her chocolate. My dislike for Sheldon was cemented with that episode.

Which might have been a point the writers were trying to make. No one would ever consider doing that to a neurotypical child; it's too disrespectful.

Not exactly. Housewives have been employing such tactics for hundreds of years on their husbands with food, intimacy, and the levels of nagging the husbands were exposed to based on their efforts.
Bribery and "positive reinforcement" is the preferred method of training another living thing as discipline, denial, and "negative reinforcement" is roundly frowned on no matter who or what you do it to (unless you're in the military, they seem to rather enjoy being absolute scumbags to make you do what they want you to do). Basic psychology all around. The kicker though is in the morals and ethics, that's usually what separates it from constructive training to outright torture. Training a person to understand that stealing and lying is bad is a little different than teaching them to be a little obedient minion who suppresses all their emotions and lives to please you. Police dogs are trained by given time with their very favorite toy when they do good, which is different from whipping and beating a horse when getting it used to the saddle. Of course, that's the non-consensual training. The terms and conditions are much more flexible and relaxed when it's consensual, part of the reason why the military can get away with how they treat soldiers in boot camp, and seems to be the reason why kids can be done the way they are so long as the parents consent to it like at the Judge Rotenberg Center.

Depends. As a child (<14) in ABA-therapy I would have quietly rebelled, and even ignored my brainwashers, but I'd have a breaking point. I had one when it came to school bullying, despite my lofty ideals of independence and nonconformity, and I'd have one when it came to active brainwashing by adults.

If someone takes liberties with me now, I'll ignore them so hard they start questioning their own existence.

I never could get away with ignoring somebody. I had to learn more subtle ways to get even. And they were soooo much fun.

 

[Gordy]

I am torn on this one. In principal I think its overstepping the boundary, but in reality it's how I learned to cope with many aspects of the world I had to live in.

 

[Ylva]

I am torn on this one. In principal I think its overstepping the boundary, but in reality it's how I learned to cope with many aspects of the world I had to live in.

There are other ways to learn it that wouldn't be as damaging.

 

[Gordy]

There are other ways to learn it that wouldn't be as damaging.

Yes, I would say so too. I suppose it comes down to whether you think the "acting" adaptation model works or not.
It does to some extent - it allows me to operate in an alien world - but it takes its toll in tiredness and mental health issues I think.

 

[Beverly]

For me, the exact methods used to teach ABA behavior make a difference. I would never condone beating it into a child, as was done to me. Effective but, I know I am a rare individual to remain assertive and, even defiant under those methods. Most can't separate actions taught that way into a facade meant to please others at a young age and, retain their sense of self under that facade. By some blessing or miracle, I was able to do that so, for me I learned to act NT when it was required, and to do it with a smile but, I never became submissive internally and, once the threat of punishment was removed, I was a strong, assertive young woman. A bit fool hardy at times, but that's the bane of youth I suppose.

NT or not, we all have to learn to get along in this world to some degree, more or less so depending on the path we each choose for our lives. Learning to adapt outwardly at a young age is not a bad thing but, it needs to be taught in a way that does not risk physical or psychological damage to the child. Too many never recover from that damage and, it has a negative impact throughout their lives.

Yes outward adaptation needs to be taught but, how it's taught needs to be considerate of the well being of the child.