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I'm A Liar or You Believe In God . . . ?

Fino

Alex
V.I.P Member
I thought this might make an interesting thread. So long story short, here are the facts:

-was consistently suicidal for a decade
-Went on Christian retreat (long story as to why)
-During prayer on suicide, saw a light and was instantaneously, permanently healed from suicidality
-Was Atheist at the time and had no belief or interest in prayer

I believe that's everything relevant to the question: if you're Atheist or Agnostic, what now prevents you from reconsidering your faith?

If you simply don't believe me, no need to comment since I can't really respond to that with anything useful.

If you believe I hallucinated and simultaneously inexplicably recovered from a life-time of depression, then also no need to comment because I think that's silly and have no idea if I even needed to address that one but decided to because I entertained that possibility in the aftermath of the event.

If you think I'm insane, no need to comment either, because I don't know what I could do about that and I'd probably suggest that you're the one who's insane.

That's all I can think of for now. And just because it's about God, I'll just say, let's not get upset over anything. Just stay calm!!!!! :eek:

The joke was that I said it not so calm. :D

Anyway, I'll definitely stop talking now. :)
 
I have often considered trying to adopt a religion because it seems so comforting to have faith in a greater being watching over you. But I think I’m too skeptical to be able to believe. I want to, but I don’t think I can.
I do live my life by basic rules such as treat others as you’d want to be treated, be kind to everyone, don’t lie, don’t steal and try to be helpful. All in all I am happy with how I conduct myself.
 
I have often considered trying to adopt a religion because it seems so comforting to have faith in a greater being watching over you. But I think I’m too skeptical to be able to believe. I want to, but I don’t think I can.
I do live my life by basic rules such as treat others as you’d want to be treated, be kind to everyone, don’t lie, don’t steal and try to be helpful. All in all I am happy with how I conduct myself.

I actually know what you mean. Ive believed for years. It truly does help when things get overwhelming. I have struggled mightly to hold to my faith. Even to this day. But it is worth while. I am christan if your curious.
 
I have often considered trying to adopt a religion because it seems so comforting to have faith in a greater being watching over you. But I think I’m too skeptical to be able to believe. I want to, but I don’t think I can.
I do live my life by basic rules such as treat others as you’d want to be treated, be kind to everyone, don’t lie, don’t steal and try to be helpful. All in all I am happy with how I conduct myself.
In the judeo christian faith from memory !G~d! gives !you faith !,if !you dont !have !it you havent !been given !it
 
I thought this might make an interesting thread. So long story short, here are the facts:

-was consistently suicidal for a decade
-Went on Christian retreat (long story as to why)
-During prayer on suicide, saw a light and was instantaneously, permanently healed from suicidality
-Was Atheist at the time and had no belief or interest in prayer

I believe that's everything relevant to the question: if you're Atheist or Agnostic, what now prevents you from reconsidering your faith?

If you simply don't believe me, no need to comment since I can't really respond to that with anything useful.

If you believe I hallucinated and simultaneously inexplicably recovered from a life-time of depression, then also no need to comment because I think that's silly and have no idea if I even needed to address that one but decided to because I entertained that possibility in the aftermath of the event.

If you think I'm insane, no need to comment either, because I don't know what I could do about that and I'd probably suggest that you're the one who's insane.

That's all I can think of for now. And just because it's about God, I'll just say, let's not get upset over anything. Just stay calm!!!!! :eek:

The joke was that I said it not so calm. :D

Anyway, I'll definitely stop talking now. :)

Ive been a believer for years. Saw some truly amazing things. I saw a lot too. Though it was surronded by pillars of stone. These were for my protection as the light was to bright to look upon directly. And actually caused physical reaction.
 
I'm an atheist, and over the past two years or so, I've done a fair bit of research into Christianity and what it entails, because I knew almost nothing about it and I didn't think I could fairly consider myself an atheist if I didn't know anything about the opposite viewpoint. Despite many long discussions with some of my Christian friends, I still don't feel like I have a good idea of what it feels like to believe in God. That makes me sad, because I truly want to understand, but it's as if something is holding me back. I don't know if it's some sort of cognitive dissonance where I subconsciously don't want to understand, but I wish I could figure it out. Anyway, in answer to your question: I've tried to reconsider my faith, but I haven't had much luck yet.
 
I adore your angel story! I shared it with my sister and a friend of mine after you told it to me back in October. They loved it, too.

An angel-shaped white light flashed across your vision when you were in a church. You were struggling horrifically before it happened, and you emerged from the experience completely changed for the better. These are facts. Any conclusions or interpretations drawn from them, however, are purely conjectural and subjective. People from all walks of life have encounters like yours—Christians, Buddhists, agnostics, scientists, etc. They are interpreted by different people in different ways. We don’t know the what, why, and how of them, but we do know that they happen and that many of them completely defy all explanation.

You had your experience inside of a church, and it saved your life. You needed something to believe in, and you got it. You get to decide what it means to you, and anyone who tells you you’re wrong or a liar is just small-minded and mean.

Have you read any books on this subject? Might be interesting to you. I read one not long ago by a woman who’s been an ICU doctor for about 20 years. She shares paranormal experiences she’s had and near-death experiences reported by her patients that cannot even begin to be explained. There are a few angel stories in there, too, if I recall. Cool subject.
 
I'm an atheist, and over the past two years or so, I've done a fair bit of research into Christianity and what it entails, because I knew almost nothing about it and I didn't think I could fairly consider myself an atheist if I didn't know anything about the opposite viewpoint. Despite many long discussions with some of my Christian friends, I still don't feel like I have a good idea of what it feels like to believe in God. That makes me sad, because I truly want to understand, but it's as if something is holding me back. I don't know if it's some sort of cognitive dissonance where I subconsciously don't want to understand, but I wish I could figure it out. Anyway, in answer to your question: I've tried to reconsider my faith, but I haven't had much luck yet.

If it helps. Consider what the definition of faith is. Then see how it is described in the Bible. That might give you a foundation to build on.
 
Thank you all for your replies!

I have often considered trying to adopt a religion because it seems so comforting to have faith in a greater being watching over you. But I think I’m too skeptical to be able to believe. I want to, but I don’t think I can.
I do live my life by basic rules such as treat others as you’d want to be treated, be kind to everyone, don’t lie, don’t steal and try to be helpful. All in all I am happy with how I conduct myself.

In modern society, skepticism leads to a lack of faith. It's a symptom of the current climate, where "science" and "reason" are pitted against faith. Have you ever tried imagining it in the reverse?

Typically a person replaces their "lack of faith" with a number of things they have no way of verifying themselves but which are accepted on faith based on a general trust in mainstream authorities. Think of all the things you do believe and try to think if they're things you know or certain or if there is an element of faith to it. You may not be as skeptical as you think. It may only be about which subjects you're choosing to be skeptical and which ones you aren't.


I'm an atheist, and over the past two years or so, I've done a fair bit of research into Christianity and what it entails, because I knew almost nothing about it and I didn't think I could fairly consider myself an atheist if I didn't know anything about the opposite viewpoint. Despite many long discussions with some of my Christian friends, I still don't feel like I have a good idea of what it feels like to believe in God. That makes me sad, because I truly want to understand, but it's as if something is holding me back. I don't know if it's some sort of cognitive dissonance where I subconsciously don't want to understand, but I wish I could figure it out. Anyway, in answer to your question: I've tried to reconsider my faith, but I haven't had much luck yet.

Thank you for sharing! Discussions with friends are great, but have you spent any time reading any religious texts for yourself, such as the Bible? Either way, I think you should keep trying, which it sounds like you are since you said "yet" as your last word. Awesome!

I adore your angel story! I shared it with my sister and a friend of mine after you told it to me back in October. They loved it, too.

An angel-shaped white light flashed across your vision when you were in a church. You were struggling horrifically before it happened, and you emerged from the experience completely changed for the better. These are facts. Any conclusions or interpretations drawn from them, however, are purely conjectural and subjective. People from all walks of life have encounters like yours—Christians, Buddhists, agnostics, scientists, etc. They are interpreted by different people in different ways. We don’t know the what, why, and how of them, but we do know that they happen and that many of them completely defy all explanation.

You had your experience inside of a church, and it saved your life. You needed something to believe in, and you got it. You get to decide what it means to you, and anyone who tells you you’re wrong or a liar is just small-minded and mean.

Have you read any books on this subject? Might be interesting to you. I read one not long ago by a woman who’s been an ICU doctor for about 20 years. She shares paranormal experiences she’s had and near-death experiences reported by her patients that cannot even begin to be explained. There are a few angel stories in there, too, if I recall. Cool subject.

Thank you very much! And thank you for making the thread where I mentioned it in the first place, otherwise I likely wouldn't have thought to discuss it at all, ever.

And I completely agree with your assessment. That's the exact assessment I made after it happened. It required further experiences for me to go any further than that.

Do you think it's at all relevant that the experience happened in a Christian church at a Christian camp during a Christian prayer, or are you leaving that to the possibility of being an unrelated coincidence? And the fact that it was a prayer on suicide which healed the suicidality? And the fact that it was an angel, which is only believed in by particular groups, one of those being Christian?

Also, you mentioned a few groups who have had similar experiences, and the only one of your examples I wonder about is "agnostic." The first definition I find for "agnostic" is:

"a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God."

Maybe you don't know this because it's not like it's your own thoughts, but do you have any idea how a person could experience this and still not believe in "anything beyond material phenomena," without chalking it off to hallucination?

And no, I haven't read any books on the subject! Do you have any in particular you recommend?
 
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I think your experience of grace sounds amazing and I am so happy for you. I feel like there must be something, there's so much we don't understand, but I don't feel comfortable with any faith I have researched or tried so far, this may be more because of the social aspects of worship that I can't manage.

I try to live up to my values and behave well towards others, and hope that whatever is there will accept that I did my best.
 
I'm an atheist, and over the past two years or so, I've done a fair bit of research into Christianity and what it entails, because I knew almost nothing about it and I didn't think I could fairly consider myself an atheist if I didn't know anything about the opposite viewpoint. Despite many long discussions with some of my Christian friends, I still don't feel like I have a good idea of what it feels like to believe in God. That makes me sad, because I truly want to understand, but it's as if something is holding me back. I don't know if it's some sort of cognitive dissonance where I subconsciously don't want to understand, but I wish I could figure it out. Anyway, in answer to your question: I've tried to reconsider my faith, but I haven't had much luck yet.
The holding you back for some people is in the quote Faith is the evidence of things unseen
 
I am a Christian, a work in churches actually.

To be honest the Atheism concept baffles me. Firstly they argue it isn't a faith but based on evidence. When I ask what evidence do you have that there is no God they say it's up to me to prove there is (!). I ask but you said yours is based on evidence show me it, there is none that there is no God. Therefore atheism is a faith for it isn't based on rational evidence either.

Then to consider that all of this merely happened. This universe, the complexity of life, a big bang which occured from an eternal singularity...I'm sorry but that takes more faith to believe than that a God made all of this.

I found God or He found me at 21 when I was depressed, in the grip of paralising OCD and He helped me find stability. I find the Christian community hard at times and church very hard at times but Jesus is brilliant! I love how he challenged the oppression of the day, showing compassion, drawing in the outsiders and giving His life so we can know life.
 
I think your experience of grace sounds amazing and I am so happy for you. I feel like there must be something, there's so much we don't understand, but I don't feel comfortable with any faith I have researched or tried so far, this may be more because of the social aspects of worship that I can't manage.

I try to live up to my values and behave well towards others, and hope that whatever is there will accept that I did my best.

You can worship on your own. I have for years.
 
I am a Christian, a work in churches actually.

To be honest the Atheism concept baffles me. Firstly they argue it isn't a faith but based on evidence. When I ask what evidence do you have that there is no God they say it's up to me to prove there is (!). I ask but you said yours is based on evidence show me it, there is none that there is no God. Therefore atheism is a faith for it isn't based on rational evidence either.

I don't want to start a never-ending argument here, but it's a logical imperative that negatives do not require proof, for the simple reason such proof is impossible. (Silly) example to consider: can we prove unicorns don't exist? Is "unicorn don't exist" a thought based on faith? If you think it is, I have nothing but to say that the word "faith" hold different meaning for us.

However, I think sometimes the "new atheism", as popularized by Dawkins and his (probably fedora-wearing) friends, give too much content to "There is no god", to the point it becomes an affirmation in itself.

Leaving "popular" atheism aside, atheism as a religion position consists in applying this general rule: "Not believing in the existence of X, whatever X is, in the absence of any reasonable evidence" (which rules scientific thought) to theological matters - whether that kind of rule should or should not apply to religious thinking is a different matter, one that has become the seed for many philosophical discussions it wouldn't be proper to introduce here.

I consider myself an atheist, with a keen interest in religious thought (in general, beyond Christianity) in regards to its philosophical nature. One of my favorite books that I'd recommend to anyone is The Gospel in Brief by Tolstoy, in which the author attempts to "clean" and show clearly the teaching of Jesus, from the Gospels as written in the Bible.

And I also would like to add that in some topics, what is true or not may be not important or meaningless, and I prefer a more pragmatic position. If a person find happiness in religious beliefs, I think that's great, as long as it is not the cause of physical or emotional harm to other people (as it has been, and still is sometimes).
 
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I don't want to start a never-ending argument here, but it's a logical imperative that negatives do not require proof, for the simple reason such proof is impossible. (Silly) example to consider: can we prove unicorns don't exist? Is "unicorn don't exist" a thought based on faith? If you think it is, I have nothing but to say that the word "faith" hold different meaning for us.

However, I think sometimes the "new atheism", as popularized by Dawkins and his (probably fedora-wearing) friends, give too much content to "There is no god", to the point it becomes an affirmation in itself.

Leaving "popular" atheism aside, atheism as a religion position consists in applying this general rule: "Not believing in the existence of X, whatever X is, in the absence of any reasonable evidence" (which rules scientific thought) to theological matters - whether that kind of rule should or should not apply to religious thinking is a different matter, one that has become the seed for many philosophical discussions it wouldn't be proper to introduce here.

I consider myself an atheist, with a keen interest in religious thought (in general, beyond Christianity) in regards to its philosophical nature. One of my favorite books that I'd recommend to anyone is The Gospel in Brief by Tolstoy, in which the author attempts to "clean" and show clearly the teaching of Jesus, from the Gospels as written in the Bible.

And I also would like to add that in some topics, what is true or not may be not important or meaningless, and I prefer a more pragmatic position. If a person find happiness in religious beliefs, I think that's great, as long as it is not the cause of physical or emotional harm to other people (as it has been, and still is sometimes).

If you dont mind answering what is your definition of faith from a philosophy stand point?
 
I think your experience of grace sounds amazing and I am so happy for you. I feel like there must be something, there's so much we don't understand, but I don't feel comfortable with any faith I have researched or tried so far, this may be more because of the social aspects of worship that I can't manage.

I try to live up to my values and behave well towards others, and hope that whatever is there will accept that I did my best.

There are no required social aspects. They're only so highly encouraged because humans are social creatures and often operate under the assumption that what is good for some is good for all. Just ignore 'em!

I don't want to start a never-ending argument here, but it's a logical imperative that negatives do not require proof, for the simple reason such proof is impossible. (Silly) example to consider: can we prove unicorns don't exist? Is "unicorn don't exist" a thought based on faith? If you think it is, I have nothing but to say that the word "faith" hold different meaning for us.

However, I think sometimes the "new atheism", as popularized by Dawkins and his (probably fedora-wearing) friends, give too much content to "There is no god", to the point it becomes an affirmation in itself.

Leaving "popular" atheism aside, atheism as a religion position consists in applying this general rule: "Not believing in the existence of X, whatever X is, in the absence of any reasonable evidence" (which rules scientific thought) to theological matters - whether that kind of rule should or should not apply to religious thinking is a different matter, one that has become the seed for many philosophical discussions it wouldn't be proper to introduce here.

I consider myself an atheist, with a keen interest in religious thought (in general, beyond Christianity) in regards to its philosophical nature. One of my favorite books that I'd recommend to anyone is The Gospel in Brief by Tolstoy, in which the author attempts to "clean" and show clearly the teaching of Jesus, from the Gospels as written in the Bible.

And I also would like to add that in some topics, what is true or not may be not important or meaningless, and I prefer a more pragmatic position. If a person find happiness in religious beliefs, I think that's great, as long as it is not the cause of physical or emotional harm to other people (as it has been, and still is sometimes).

I understand what you mean and I used to argue the same thing, and perhaps we do have different definitions of "faith," but I believe it does require faith to believe in every example offered. We are constantly living in faith. The definition I'm seeing for "faith" is "complete trust or confidence in someone or something."

We have faith we won't die tomorrow and operate under that assumption. To disbelieve the existence of unicorns is to have faith that any reason given to believe in unicorns is not adequate reason for believing n them.

A sort of statement of belief for an Atheist could be:

"It doesn't matter how bafflingly complex the universe is, it doesn't matter how many people believe in God, it doesn't matter how many miracles there are, and it doesn't matter what has happened in my life or the lives of my loves ones, I have faith that there is no God."
 
Thank you very much! And thank you for making the thread where I mentioned it in the first place, otherwise I likely wouldn't have thought to discuss it at all, ever.

And I completely agree with your assessment. That's the exact assessment I made after it happened. It required further experiences for me to go any further than that.

Do you think it's at all relevant that the experience happened in a Christian church at a Christian camp during a Christian prayer, or are you leaving that to the possibility of being an unrelated coincidence? And the fact that it was a prayer on suicide which healed the suicidality? And the fact that it was an angel, which is only believed in by particular groups, one of those being Christian?

Also, you mentioned a few groups who have had similar experiences, and the only one of your examples I wonder about is "agnostic." The first definition I find for "agnostic" is:

"a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God."

Maybe you don't know this because it's not like it's your own thoughts, but do you have any idea how a person could experience this and still not believe in "anything beyond material phenomena," without chalking it off to hallucination?

And no, I haven't read any books on the subject! Do you have any in particular you recommend?

Well, I see it from a "correlation is not causation" point of view. Your experience happened in a Christian church, and you found meaning and relevance in the correlation. There are a multitude of non-religious reasons it could have happened there, but none of them are provable (e.g. if an intelligent entity of some kind caused the flash and your transformation,--as I feel is the case,--maybe it/he/she knew that you needed something "solid" to put your back up against i.e. a "focal point" such as the Christian religion and so chose to heal you there, or maybe what happened was more of a psychic or "energy" experience of some kind). The possibilities are endless. It led you to Christianity and saved your life and continues to enrich your life through your faith. I love that. I don't think anyone who has an experience like that is wrong in the way they interpret it. Whatever works for you, whatever you feel it means to you, is valid.

Angels are actually found everywhere, in every culture. They're just called by different names. All kinds of people have angel experiences.

Oh that's interesting re: agnosticism. I always thought it meant open to all possibilities. I stand corrected! It sounds a lot like solipsism. Kind of. But yeah, I think atheists, scientists, agnostics, and skeptics suffer a great shock when they have unexplainable paranormal experiences, and they either turn away from them or allow them to transform their previously-held beliefs about reality. For example, the other day I listened to an interview with a neuroscientist who had a near death experience that he could not explain and so decided to research and write books on the subject.

I haven't read any books specifically about angel encounters, but I'm sure it would be easy to find some good ones. The book I mentioned before is called Near Death in the ICU: Stories from Patients Near Death and Why We Should Listen to Them by Dr. Laurin Bellg. There are a few stories in there that I would consider angel-related.
 
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What l found interesting is the church uses gifted people to counsel and spread the church's message. But l also have heard of many people who are fed up with their pastors and their bad examples and end up leaving the church.

I am a spiritual person but l practice my beliefs everyday, some days are defintely better then others.
 

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