I am applying to Debenhams in Meadowhall to be a part time sales advisor

[Mr Allen]

Topic.

Taking my CV and cover letter this afternoon, the applications close next week, I checked on the Meadowhall website this morning.

Anyway, should I put as part of the cover letter that under "reasonable adjustments" would I be able to wear "smart casual" attire rather than the shirt/tie uniform due to disability and not being able to do a shirt/tie?

OK yeah I'll spare you my long rant about the enforcement, or rather lack thereof, of the equality laws, but can they say no to my request?

I need a quick response to this please as I'm off out shortly.

 

[Suzanne]

In this day and age, Rick, I would venture to suggest that you ought to not get your hope up high about it.

 

[Mary Lyn]

What's wromg with having someone do up a tie then it can be loosened to get it over the head and then will not need doing again.

 

[tree]

No, I think you'd just be making trouble for yourself
to say that you'd be dressing differently due to not
being able to manage a shirt/tie on your own.

If that's the attire required, get someone to fix up
a tie for you. Nobody has to know you didn't tie
it yourself.

 

[Mary Anne]

Topic.

Taking my CV and cover letter this afternoon, the applications close next week, I checked on the Meadowhall website this morning.

Anyway, should I put as part of the cover letter that under "reasonable adjustments" would I be able to wear "smart casual" attire rather than the shirt/tie uniform due to disability and not being able to do a shirt/tie?

OK yeah I'll spare you my long rant about the enforcement, or rather lack thereof, of the equality laws, but can they say no to my request?

I need a quick response to this please as I'm off out shortly.

People continually tell you NOT to disclose your disabilities but if you keep on doing that, expect the same results as usual.

Also, there are very inexpensive clip-on ties you could put on with one hand blindfolded. What’s the big deal? Go and buy one in a neutral color that goes with everything.

 

[Judge]

Anyway, should I put as part of the cover letter that under "reasonable adjustments" would I be able to wear "smart casual" attire rather than the shirt/tie uniform due to disability and not being able to do a shirt/tie?

You don't ever want to challenge any prospective employer's dress code as an applicant. So you have two simple alternatives:

1. Buy at least three or more clip-on ties to wear alternately every other day.

2. Buy at least three conventional neckties, and have someone like your father tie them. When you discard them don't untie them- simply loosen them up enough to pull over your head and then retain the knotted tie for use again. Geez...I can tie a Windsor Knot just fine. But it takes time and effort I prefer to avoid each morning when I had to wear them. The biggest challenge? To keep them clean.

I still have all my neckties worn decades ago. And they're still knotted too! But neatly stored flat, where on occasion I might even iron them a bit. But undo those nicely tied Windsor Knots? -Hell no.

 

[Mary Anne]

You don't ever want to challenge any prospective employer's dress code as an applicant. So you have two simple alternatives:

1. Buy at least three or more clip-on ties to wear alternately every other day.

2. Buy at least three conventional neckties, and have someone like your father tie them. When you discard them don't untie them- simply loosen them up enough to pull over your head and then retain the knotted tie for use again. Geez...I can tie a Windsor Knot just fine. But it takes time and effort I prefer to avoid each morning when I had to wear them. The biggest challenge? To keep them clean.

I still have all my neckties worn decades ago. And they're still knotted too! But neatly stored flat, where on occasion I might even iron them a bit. But undo those nicely tied Windsor Knots? -Hell no.

You can also hang ties on a hanger. You want the air to circulate around them. I think Rich could get away with only clip ons.
I learned to tie Windsor’s back in high school. Still can do it but it’s not really necessary in this day and age. Most people will not know the difference. However, if one is working in a upscale men’s haberdashery, then you WILL be looked down for wearing a “clip on tie.”

 

[Judge]

You can also hang ties on a hanger.

That's exactly what I did. In fact one of them was a tie hanger I made in metal shop in junior high. Glad I kept it. Wasn't pretty but functionally it sure served its purpose.

Eventually the number of ties I had exceeded my one hanger so yes, I bought another hanger. But it does allow them to be neatly stored without untying them. A thicker gauge of metal than just a clothes hanger. So it doesn't put a crimp or crease in them when they are hanged.

 

[Mr Allen]

People continually tell you NOT to disclose your disabilities but if you keep on doing that, expect the same results as usual.

Also, there are very inexpensive clip-on ties you could put on with one hand blindfolded. What’s the big deal? Go and buy one in a neutral color that goes with everything.

i'M damned either way IMO, I don't declare my disability at application stage, and then they find out during the recruitment process, technically I "lied" so they can terminate my employment, although legally they can't, but if discrimination is going on, the onus is on ME to prove it.

 

[Judge]

i'M damned either way IMO, I don't declare my disability at application stage, and then they find out during the recruitment process, technically I "lied" so they can terminate my employment, although legally they can't, but if discrimination is going on, the onus is on ME to prove it.

Consider the reality of your situation. You have nothing to lose in trying a very different approach given you have yet to actually be hired for any paying job.

Choose to divulge only your hearing and visual issues and keep your autism to yourself. And don't make a point of emphasizing those issues. Report them on your application but don't discuss them. See how far you get in the process. Consider it an experiment.

 

[MrSpock]

There are things that are real which you may fight and beat, but you cannot successfully fight against the nature of reality itself and win. That will always be frustrating, both for the person doing the fighting and for the people who try to help that person. From what I can see the people on this forum who are critical of you are not being mean, they're trying to help you, and they're frustrated - you seem to be frustrated too.

You will go on and on about 'equality' at the same time as you want special treatment because you're different. These are two very different and opposite things, and you don't seem to understand that.

...I'll spare you my long rant about the enforcement, or rather lack thereof, of the equality laws...

Thanks for sparing us that. It might be a healthy exercise for you to write that rant in a text file for yourself, then read it while asking yourself if the ranting person is asking to be treated the same as everybody else, or is asking to be treated differently. If everyone else is wearing the uniform and you want to not wear it, you're asking to be treated differently, not asking to be treated the same, not asking to be treated as an equal.

You don't seem to have tried thinking of this from any other perspective than your own. You're not the only person applying for these jobs. You know what it's like to be in your position when others get the job, imagine what it would be like for someone else if you got the job. They have worked in paying jobs for the last twenty years, they are better able to do the job than you, they can wear the uniform for example. They have been paying taxes to support you, and they need this job not for a bit of extra money, but to support themselves and you as well, possibly a spouse and children on top of that. In spite of being less qualified you get the job, now they need another job to support themselves and the person who just took 'their' job, and you had help to do it that they don't have (Autism Plus for example). You've used his own tax money against him. Has the government represented him fairly? What sort of rant might he have to post?

The way I see it you have two ways you can end your frustration. You could choose to fight a different battle, stop trying to gain the type of employment that you are, expecting to be treated as a 'normal' person at the same time as getting special treatment (accept a lower wage, or accept being unemployed) - OR - you can accept the fact that you are not equal, that the same government you wish would enforce these 'equality laws' is giving you disability money BECAUSE you are not equally capable of working.

It's nice to have laws that treat people equally, but in reality people are simply not equal. If you want help getting something off the top shelf and two people are there to ask for help, one is short and the other is tall, you're going to ask the tall person. The short person will not be offended and go on about how they're equal. The short person may be better at something else, but FOR THIS JOB they are clearly unequal.

For any job some people will be more suited than others, and no law will change that. If that did change it would take away your disability benefits, wouldn't it?

 

[Mr Allen]

For any job some people will be more suited than others, and no law will change that. If that did change it would take away your disability benefits, wouldn't it?

.

No it wouldn't, because without a job, I would HAVE to be on benefits to live, if the government thinks they can sanction the crap out of me and I'll commit suicide like countless others have done, they can forget it.

Also, I was in Debenham's yesterday afternoon, taking my CV and cover letter to hand in, and they were wearing black trousers and a black shirt, no white shirt and tie like I wore 22 years ago when I worked on placement at the one in Town.

 

[Starfire]

You’re not being sanctioned Rich! Despite others mentally and physically far worse off than you being deemed able to work, you have not had your disability benefits stopped. That must suggest to you that in the employment department you are seen as someone realistically unable to ever work due to your disabilities.

Yet you continue to apply for jobs you are totally unsuitable for because you consider jobs you are suitable for to be beneath you.

In employment and wage terms, one is worth what an employer is willing to pay for what you can do and offer, not what you think you should be entitled to, and that goes for everyone employed.

You don’t HAVE to be on benefits either Rich. If the system changed or ceased to exist tomorrow would you starve to death? No, in order to eat and keep a roof over your head you would take anything on offer because you would no longer only look for part time work which would keep you just outside the brackets of having to pay any tax, or lose a penny of your benefits. You would also have to readjust your sense of entitlement and unrealistic expectations.

Anyone could continually apply for jobs they have no realistic expectations of getting then cry discrimination, I could do that, but I don’t see anyone else here doing that.

 

[Mary Anne]

.

No it wouldn't, because without a job, I would HAVE to be on benefits to live, if the government thinks they can sanction the crap out of me and I'll commit suicide like countless others have done, they can forget it.

Also, I was in Debenham's yesterday afternoon, taking my CV and cover letter to hand in, and they were wearing black trousers and a black shirt, no white shirt and tie like I wore 22 years ago when I worked on placement at the one in Town.

Rich, you are not making any sense. You say repeatedly that you can’t work over a certain amount due to losing benefits, but then you say you “HAVE to be in benefits to live.” Which one is it? You are stating two completely contradictory things. Either succumb to living on benefits and falling into that self pity of “Oh I am disabled,” OR try to work as much you can and empower yourself. Fight and live for what you CAN do, and don’t look back.

 

[tree]

I thought he was saying he wants benefits
which provide for his physical needs and he wants
a job that pays, in order to satisfy his emotional
needs. To feel valued.

 

[Mary Anne]

You’re not being sanctioned Rich! Despite others mentally and physically far worse off than you being deemed able to work, you have not had your disability benefits stopped. That must suggest to you that in the employment department you are seen as someone realistically unable to ever work due to your disabilities.

Yet you continue to apply for jobs you are totally unsuitable for because you consider jobs you are suitable for to be beneath you.

In employment and wage terms, one is worth what an employer is willing to pay for what you can do and offer, not what you think you should be entitled to, and that goes for everyone employed.

You don’t HAVE to be on benefits either Rich. If the system changed or ceased to exist tomorrow would you starve to death? No, in order to eat and keep a roof over your head you would take anything on offer because you would no longer only look for part time work which would keep you just outside the brackets of having to pay any tax, or lose a penny of your benefits. You would also have to readjust your sense of entitlement and unrealistic expectations.

Anyone could continually apply for jobs they have no realistic expectations of getting then cry discrimination, I could do that, but I don’t see anyone else here doing that.

You and MrSpock speak such truths. Sense of entitlement, self pity, anger and years of frustration have created Rich’s opinions. He has not considered working for himself in computers or whatever else he has talents in. There are non profits that help people set up a small sole proprietorship. When you work for yourself, you can set the prices, and the hours you work. You can still get disability benefits too.

I also agree, he keeps interviewing for businesses he may not be qualified for, or his attitude negatively colors the interview right from the start. Whatever the problem, it’s time to try uniquely different approaches, and change his “stinkin’ self thinkin.’ “

 

[Mary Anne]

I thought he was saying he wants benefits
which provide for his physical needs and he wants
a job that pays, in order to satisfy his emotional
needs. To feel valued.

He never said that per say, but you might be right. Thanks for clarifying this. I thought he wanted to work for the money. I must say, the times when I volunteered, I felt more valued as a human (by staff) then 90% of the paid jobs I have ever had. Maybe it’s different in the UK.

 

[the_tortoise]

You will go on and on about 'equality' at the same time as you want special treatment because you're different. These are two very different and opposite things, and you don't seem to understand that.

I think that when @Mr Allen talks about "equality" he means "equitability"....many people use the word "equal" to mean "equitable".

@Starfire, how could you possibly know what he would do if he lost benefits? I doubt anyone on here is omniscient, and I don't think you can judge a person's degree of disability by forum posts. He might end up homeless and starving, he might not -- we have no way of knowing that.

You say repeatedly that you can’t work over a certain amount due to losing benefits, but then you say you “HAVE to be in benefits to live.” Which one is it? You are stating two completely contradictory things. Either succumb to living on benefits and falling into that self pity of “Oh I am disabled,” OR try to work as much you can and empower yourself. Fight and live for what you CAN do, and don’t look back.

They aren't contradictory at all -- both statements are about him needing to remain on benefits to live.

Also, you are massively over-simplifying the situation by saying it's a matter of self-pity versus empowerment.

To everyone who is sick of providing the same advice and the same "suck it up" type lectures again and again:

I will never understand why you don't just stop offering the advice and lectures instead of getting all bent out of shape about not getting the response you want and telling Mr Allen off as if he's done something wrong by not adopting your views or following your advice -- he hasn't done anything wrong by not adopting your views or following your advice. You may not agree with his decisions, but they are his to make and he's not obligated to agree with you nor to try to do things that he perceives as harmful or impossible just because you chose to suggest them.

 

[Mary Anne]

I think that when @Mr Allen talks about "equality" he means "equitability"....many people use the word "equal" to mean "equitable".

@Starfire, how could you possibly know what he would do if he lost benefits? I doubt anyone on here is omniscient, and I don't think you can judge a person's degree of disability by forum posts. He might end up homeless and starving, he might not -- we have no way of knowing that.



They aren't contradictory at all -- both statements are about him needing to remain on benefits to live.

Also, you are massively over-simplifying the situation by saying it's a matter of self-pity versus empowerment.

To everyone who is sick of providing the same advice and the same "suck it up" type lectures again and again:

I will never understand why you don't just stop offering the advice and lectures instead of getting all bent out of shape about not getting the response you want and telling Mr Allen off as if he's done something wrong by not adopting your views or following your advice -- he hasn't done anything wrong by not adopting your views or following your advice. You may not agree with his decisions, but they are his to make and he's not obligated to agree with you nor to try to do things that he perceives as harmful or impossible just because you chose to suggest them.

Well said. But, then why does he keep posting the same things despite getting the same answers? He does ask for help. Only he can answer that, I guess.
Also, you have no idea how many of us might be going through the very same challenges, AND have found ways to navigate the disability benefits and working situations. We are peers here trying to help other peers like Rich who have actually asked for help. Rich asks for help all the time on these matters.

 

[Judge]

A sobering critique on Britain's ESA benefits. Lengthy reading, although it seems to cover a number of issues that have come up with so many of Rich's attempts to secure paid employment.

If these are truly many concerns on the part of the public, politicians, bureaucrats and especially prospective employers, I can see how it's possible that much of anyone on long-term ESA benefits may in fact be shunned from the workforce. Made worse if one factors in the political wrath of social conservatism among a relatively evenly divided electorate.

Imagine if it were a widely-held perception that the "scarlet letter" wasn't being disabled per se, but rather simply receiving long-term ESA benefits.

https://www.centreforwelfarereform.org/library/by-az/thoughts-on-esa.html

If I was in such a situation, after reading this I would attempt to seek out anyone who might be presently employed for pay, while still receiving long-term ESA benefits. And to research as to what government sources publish in the way of such statistics reflecting those part time workers.

And that if you can't find such feedback, perhaps there is your real answer. Where discrimination may in fact be institutionalized by the same bureaucracy charged to enforce the very same laws against it.