How to have normal social interactions?

[Batmansbrotherspidey]

Are there good youtube or otherwise training resources which really start from basics like body language, eye contact, tone, how to say and what to say etc? I've read books such as "How to make friends" but all those are too advanced for me. An advice in that book was to make other people talk about themselves. So I was interested in a person who was interested in math so I kept asking that person questions about math. After a few months, the person said that although they liked answering the questions, the interactions always felt like interviews and not how they'd talk to a potential friend. Idk how to resolve issues like this unless there are tutorials which start from basics. In math and physics, everything follows from few fundamental principles. Everything has a logical connection. Why is social interaction not like that? Why is it so chaotic, complex and unpredictable? It's 1000 times harder than the hardest math problem and no, I'm not exaggerating. The hardest math problem, if provable, will have set patterns and set logical connections. In a social interaction you'll never be able to prove why something worked and why something didn't. Please make it a science!!

 

[jsilver256]

"Make them talk about themselves" is great advice but a better term should be make them talk about themselves organically.

As in, I have to wander through topics until I hit that one subject which makes them go at length about themselves. Then you ask another question about what they said and repeat. In short, you need to calibrate your criteria to include the lengthiness of replies you get.

Typically kids, family, vacation plans, etc and other mundane topics are much better at eliciting monologues.

Unfortunately I have found that there is something of a disconnect between "what makes people enjoy interacting with me" and "what I enjoy in interacting about other people." E.g., the things I do to have other people enjoy being with me (small talk), do seem not have much relationship with things that I do to enjoy being with other people (talking about speciality topics).

If that applies to you - then it might be worthwhile asking - what is the goal of pursuing these conversations?

It is not a coincidence that the people I enjoy working closely with, and who seem to enjoy working with me, have a lot of ND traits. We don't have small talk. We just have a shared excitement about getting a project done and we'll drone about it all day long.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Are there good youtube or otherwise training resources which really start from basics like body language, eye contact, tone, how to say and what to say etc? I've read books such as "How to make friends" but all those are too advanced for me. An advice in that book was to make other people talk about themselves. So I was interested in a person who was interested in math so I kept asking that person questions about math. After a few months, the person said that although they liked answering the questions, the interactions always felt like interviews and not how they'd talk to a potential friend. Idk how to resolve issues like this unless there are tutorials which start from basics. In math and physics, everything follows from few fundamental principles. Everything has a logical connection. Why is social interaction not like that? Why is it so chaotic, complex and unpredictable? It's 1000 times harder than the hardest math problem and no, I'm not exaggerating. The hardest math problem, if provable, will have set patterns and set logical connections. In a social interaction you'll never be able to prove why something worked and why something didn't. Please make it a science!!

Laughing here. The only "science" here is understanding social behavior and emotions, which from all my decades of living and studying it, I can only conclude there is very little science. It's mostly "chaos" that is either controlled or uncontrolled. It is sensed and reacted to. Social behaviors have a cultural/situational component. Emotional behaviors are this combination of genetics, neurobiology, psychological, and psychiatric components. This "learning how to behave" is partly intuitive and observational at the macro and micro behavioral levels, as it requires high levels of skill at "reading people". Some people can be taught to be "trained observers" and other people seem to already have these skills. Some people have a high sensitivity to other people's emotional states, the reading of non-verbal language, and facial micro-expressions. Some people can really connect with all of that and become very effective leaders, communicators, educators (in a positive way) and yet others can become manipulators (in a negative way).

Having said all that, this prenatal, genetic and epigenetic, neurodevelopmental medical condition we call "autism" is anatomically, physiologically, neurochemically, psychologically, and psychiatrically associated with characteristic social/interpersonal deficits and behaviors that, at best, we can only mask/hide somewhat from others. We can mimic some neurotypical behaviors, but will always be lacking that fundamental understanding, the associated non-verbal behaviors, the facial micro-expressions, the voice inflections, and so on. Behaviors can become rather "scripted" and sometimes be sensed as "not genuine", "fake", or "deceptive" by others. The reason why many people keep us at a distance is because with "masking", others can sense that we are only getting a portion of the associated communication correct, they sense that, it is confusing to them, and they think we are "weird" in some way. "Sure, he's nice and polite, but something is off." They won't commit to bonding with us.

Many of us suffer from what can best be called "mind-blindness" in that we will never, ever know people. It is for this reason, socializing with people can, at times, be this unpredictable "minefield" just waiting for you to say or do something that will "blow up in your face" when you least expect it. People will interpret things in very unpredictable ways and you will be the source of their anger. Prior to my diagnosis at 52, I have had so many bad experiences, I was "walking on eggshells" any time I spoke or wrote an e-mail, whatever. My mind would have never, in a million years, taken what I have said or done in such a bad way, as my intentions were always good. Knowing what I know and don't know, I have been with my wife for nearly 40 years, I realize I have zero idea what she is thinking, so I always have to inquire and ask a lot of questions. I will never "know" her. This is my curse, and I just have to live with that.

You can find courses on human communication, such as here: The Great Courses

I have spent the money on these courses, and it has helped with understanding, or should I more accurately say, my masking.

 

[Batmansbrotherspidey]

"Make them talk about themselves" is great advice but a better term should be make them talk about themselves organically.

As in, I have to wander through topics until I hit that one subject which makes them go at length about themselves. Then you ask another question about what they said and repeat. In short, you need to calibrate your criteria to include the lengthiness of replies you get.

Typically kids, family, vacation plans, etc and other mundane topics are much better at eliciting monologues.

Unfortunately I have found that there is something of a disconnect between "what makes people enjoy interacting with me" and "what I enjoy in interacting about other people." E.g., the things I do to have other people enjoy being with me (small talk), do seem not have much relationship with things that I do to enjoy being with other people (talking about speciality topics).

If that applies to you - then it might be worthwhile asking - what is the goal of pursuing these conversations?

It is not a coincidence that the people I enjoy working closely with, and who seem to enjoy working with me, have a lot of ND traits. We don't have small talk. We just have a shared excitement about getting a project done and we'll drone about it all day long.

Yeah I end up talking a lot about math or black holes or AI. I think I understood a mistake I'm making. I'm ignoring a lot of stuff when determining what they'd be interested in talking about because I would be so disinterested in them that it doesn't even strike me that others could be a lot more interested in those topics than what I anticipated. So someone could be interested in math or black holes but that could be quite minute compared to how interested they are in talking about the things you listed.

 

[Peter Morrison]

Having spent most of my life working with clients and customers, I've come to learn that I am easily made awkward in "chit-chat". To help you get through your fears of small talk, just remember that it isn't a contest. jsilver256 is right in suggesting that you get someone to talk about themselves and their interests. Somewhere along the way you will find a topic that sparks your interest. The topics that you can stumble upon are endless. There is nothing wrong with claiming ignorance over a subject. That's a good opportunity to ask questions and interact when your question is being answered. There is no map to follow.

 

[Mary Terry]

Yeah I end up talking a lot about math or black holes or AI. I think I understood a mistake I'm making. I'm ignoring a lot of stuff when determining what they'd be interested in talking about because I would be so disinterested in them that it doesn't even strike me that others could be a lot more interested in those topics than what I anticipated. So someone could be interested in math or black holes but that could be quite minute compared to how interested they are in talking about the things you listed.

You just nailed the problem everyone has with small talk, regardless of whether you're NT or ND. People are rarely interested in other people's interests. You try to find some common ground/common interest with them that allows you to tolerate "chatting".

 

[RemyZee]

I happen to be sitting by myself at a restaurant table and when I look around me every single person here is sitting with other people talking about things not important enough to hear, about this and that...about small thoughts they have and aren't embarrassed of...couples, people with friends, loners, people here for football. And it's like there is no way in the world I can enter into what they're doing: for instance, how to use a spoon in good company. It just seems complicated. But in terms of chit chat I would say I keep working on getting to a place where any word other than written words that come out of me is less orchestrated. In a bad way.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Laughing here. The only "science" here is understanding social behavior and emotions, which from all my decades of living and studying it, I can only conclude there is very little science. It's mostly "chaos" that is either controlled or uncontrolled. It is sensed and reacted to. Social behaviors have a cultural/situational component. Emotional behaviors are this combination of genetics, neurobiology, psychological, and psychiatric components. This "learning how to behave" is partly intuitive and observational at the macro and micro behavioral levels, as it requires high levels of skill at "reading people". Some people can be taught to be "trained observers" and other people seem to already have these skills. Some people have a high sensitivity to other people's emotional states, the reading of non-verbal language, and facial micro-expressions. Some people can really connect with all of that and become very effective leaders, communicators, educators (in a positive way) and yet others can become manipulators (in a negative way).

Having said all that, this prenatal, genetic and epigenetic, neurodevelopmental medical condition we call "autism" is anatomically, physiologically, neurochemically, psychologically, and psychiatrically associated with characteristic social/interpersonal deficits and behaviors that, at best, we can only mask/hide somewhat from others. We can mimic some neurotypical behaviors, but will always be lacking that fundamental understanding, the associated non-verbal behaviors, the facial micro-expressions, the voice inflections, and so on. Behaviors can become rather "scripted" and sometimes be sensed as "not genuine", "fake", or "deceptive" by others. The reason why many people keep us at a distance is because with "masking", others can sense that we are only getting a portion of the associated communication correct, they sense that, it is confusing to them, and they think we are "weird" in some way. "Sure, he's nice and polite, but something is off." They won't commit to bonding with us.

Many of us suffer from what can best be called "mind-blindness" in that we will never, ever know people. It is for this reason, socializing with people can, at times, be this unpredictable "minefield" just waiting for you to say or do something that will "blow up in your face" when you least expect it. People will interpret things in very unpredictable ways and you will be the source of their anger. Prior to my diagnosis at 52, I have had so many bad experiences, I was "walking on eggshells" any time I spoke or wrote an e-mail, whatever. My mind would have never, in a million years, taken what I have said or done in such a bad way, as my intentions were always good. Knowing what I know and don't know, I have been with my wife for nearly 40 years, I realize I have zero idea what she is thinking, so I always have to inquire and ask a lot of questions. I will never "know" her. This is my curse, and I just have to live with that.

You can find courses on human communication, such as here: The Great Courses

I have spent the money on these courses, and it has helped with understanding, or should I more accurately say, my masking.

I have a small library of great courses.

 

[Lena_C]

I spend some hard time to learn to be sensitive and considerate, then it ends up some NT people don't appreciate at all, rather, they find me over-sensitive and easy irritated. Can't please everybody, but it still feel rewarding when people in need say I'm a good person.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

That's why it is better to stick to our own, looking back that's what I did. My friends are and were bright and autistic.
some never got married.

 

[Xinyta]

Are there good youtube or otherwise training resources which really start from basics like body language, eye contact, tone, how to say and what to say etc? I've read books such as "How to make friends" but all those are too advanced for me. An advice in that book was to make other people talk about themselves. So I was interested in a person who was interested in math so I kept asking that person questions about math. After a few months, the person said that although they liked answering the questions, the interactions always felt like interviews and not how they'd talk to a potential friend. Idk how to resolve issues like this unless there are tutorials which start from basics. In math and physics, everything follows from few fundamental principles. Everything has a logical connection. Why is social interaction not like that? Why is it so chaotic, complex and unpredictable? It's 1000 times harder than the hardest math problem and no, I'm not exaggerating. The hardest math problem, if provable, will have set patterns and set logical connections. In a social interaction you'll never be able to prove why something worked and why something didn't. Please make it a science!!

Why are conversations chaotic, complex, and unpredictable?

Because of the human condition.

There are no true set in stone rules, outside the unwritten ones. It's something that is only learned from by experience. It just so happens us NDs are slower to the curve, due to executive disfunction. Though, it can be still learned. And what you learn, cannot be found in self-help guilds.

Alot of life is a personalized experience. Though, that doesn't mean you can't take ques from others and pick up on trends. It just takes extra effort is all. Effort you must be willing to put in.

I'll admit there are things that go over my head. There is not much we can do about it, beyond being our best self. Know what you can and cannot do. In time, even what maybe a tribulation now, will be simpler. You just need to keep at it and add your own quirky flare.

 

[Levitat0r]

"Make them talk about themselves" is great advice but a better term should be make them talk about themselves organically.

As in, I have to wander through topics until I hit that one subject which makes them go at length about themselves. Then you ask another question about what they said and repeat. In short, you need to calibrate your criteria to include the lengthiness of replies you get.

I think our tendency is to bog down in details and assume that we can fix things with a magnifying glass and tweezers, but jsilver has the right idea. It's about the big ideas, and you know that most people have things they want to be the one to talk about, so it make sense to invite them to talk about themselves in order to get any manner of conversational or social snowball rolling.

I have a tendency to get rejected within seconds, so it doesn't help me, but I'm certain it's sound advice for some.

 

[thejuice]

Having spent most of my life working with clients and customers, I've come to learn that I am easily made awkward in "chit-chat". To help you get through your fears of small talk, just remember that it isn't a contest. jsilver256 is right in suggesting that you get someone to talk about themselves and their interests. Somewhere along the way you will find a topic that sparks your interest. The topics that you can stumble upon are endless. There is nothing wrong with claiming ignorance over a subject. That's a good opportunity to ask questions and interact when your question is being answered. There is no map to follow.

How do I get to the point of getting someone to talk about themselves. How do you find out what they like? I wish there was a magic bullet, one size fits all answer. In the meantime I fumble about and say stupid foot in mouth things.

Even had an old guy sit on a table next to me and say to himself he's lonely and I remained a cold fish, in my head, worried I'd say something dumb and out myself as an imbecile.

 

[thejuice]

As in, I have to wander through topics until I hit that one subject which makes them go at length about themselves. Then you ask another question about what they said and repeat.

Typically kids, family, vacation plans, etc and other mundane topics are much better at eliciting monologues.

Ah what normal people do. Family and vacations. Okay, good advice.

 

[Misty Avich]

Social interaction has reasons and answers but it's what words can't really explain. You just have to get it.

 

[thejuice]

Laughing here. The only "science" here is understanding social behavior and emotions, which from all my decades of living and studying it, I can only conclude there is very little science. It's mostly "chaos" that is either controlled or uncontrolled. It is sensed and reacted to. Social behaviors have a cultural/situational component. Emotional behaviors are this combination of genetics, neurobiology, psychological, and psychiatric components. This "learning how to behave" is partly intuitive and observational at the macro and micro behavioral levels, as it requires high levels of skill at "reading people". Some people can be taught to be "trained observers" and other people seem to already have these skills. Some people have a high sensitivity to other people's emotional states, the reading of non-verbal language, and facial micro-expressions. Some people can really connect with all of that and become very effective leaders, communicators, educators (in a positive way) and yet others can become manipulators (in a negative way).

Having said all that, this prenatal, genetic and epigenetic, neurodevelopmental medical condition we call "autism" is anatomically, physiologically, neurochemically, psychologically, and psychiatrically associated with characteristic social/interpersonal deficits and behaviors that, at best, we can only mask/hide somewhat from others. We can mimic some neurotypical behaviors, but will always be lacking that fundamental understanding, the associated non-verbal behaviors, the facial micro-expressions, the voice inflections, and so on. Behaviors can become rather "scripted" and sometimes be sensed as "not genuine", "fake", or "deceptive" by others. The reason why many people keep us at a distance is because with "masking", others can sense that we are only getting a portion of the associated communication correct, they sense that, it is confusing to them, and they think we are "weird" in some way. "Sure, he's nice and polite, but something is off." They won't commit to bonding with us.

Many of us suffer from what can best be called "mind-blindness" in that we will never, ever know people. It is for this reason, socializing with people can, at times, be this unpredictable "minefield" just waiting for you to say or do something that will "blow up in your face" when you least expect it. People will interpret things in very unpredictable ways and you will be the source of their anger. Prior to my diagnosis at 52, I have had so many bad experiences, I was "walking on eggshells" any time I spoke or wrote an e-mail, whatever. My mind would have never, in a million years, taken what I have said or done in such a bad way, as my intentions were always good. Knowing what I know and don't know, I have been with my wife for nearly 40 years, I realize I have zero idea what she is thinking, so I always have to inquire and ask a lot of questions. I will never "know" her. This is my curse, and I just have to live with that.

You can find courses on human communication, such as here: The Great Courses

I have spent the money on these courses, and it has helped with understanding, or should I more accurately say, my masking.

I often wonder if some NTs sense a vulnerability in us which emboldens them to scorch us if we misstep, knowing we are unlikely to be able to defend ourselves effectively and have few allies who'd think itd be worth their while to defend us. I think taking offence is a literal hobby to some, a vain manipulation game.

 

[thejuice]

Social interaction has reasons and answers but it's what words can't really explain. You just have to get it.

There has to be a formula !!

 

[Judge]

I don't think there are any specifics in securing a "normal" social interaction with much of anyone, beyond your own comfort level on a very individual basis. That the less threat someone may be to you in real time, the more likely to be able to sustain that "normal" interaction with someone.

That you either have it, or you don't.

 

[thejuice]

beyond your own comfort level on a very individual basis. That the less threat someone may be to you in real time, the more likely to be able to sustain that "normal" interaction with someone.



That you either have it, or you don't.

Socialising feels like I'm thrashing around trying to keep my head above water

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I often wonder if some NTs sense a vulnerability in us which emboldens them to scorch us if we misstep, knowing we are unlikely to be able to defend ourselves effectively. I think taking offence is a literal hobby to some.

There is some truth to that. Some people do have this "sense". I watched a program recently where psychologists interviewed violent criminals and asked them, "How do you pick your victims?" Part of the experiment was to show them videos of a crowd of people on the street, then have them pick out their potential victims. It was interesting, because they were, for the most part, picking out the same people, then having them explain why this person and not these others. What I was able to take away from it was they were looking for people who did not show strength and purpose in their interactions with others and in their walking. Also, people who were not situationally aware.

So, basically, they were NOT going to mess around with people who had their head up, neck on a swivel, walking purposefully from point A to point B.

I suspect, that even if one is not a violent criminal, but some "average Joe", you still may sense strength, or weakness in others simply by observing them. Yes, I suspect that some will take advantage of someone else's perceived weaknesses.