Heaven/hell. Why isn't there a third option?

[Magna]

Catholicism teaches that there is our life on earth (the "Church Militant"), there is Purgatory, a place in which a soul is in limbo until granted entrance to heaven; a purification process (the "Church Sorrowful") and Heaven, an eternally perfect place (the"Church Triumphant").

God gives people free will while on earth to choose the path of their eternal soul. There are only two choices: Heaven or Hell. As an aside, I often wished that I could be the last person to turn out the lights in Purgatory because I believed it would take that long for my soul to truly be healed, changed, etc to where I could glorify God unceasingly without ever questioning any of it again, but that's another topic.

It's understood within the framework of Christianity that I'm aware of that perfection, namely the desire for it is a foregone conclusion. Why would anyone desire anything less than perfection? With God in the end, it's black and white. Either all good all the time (perfection) or all bad all the time. There is no middle option.

Occasionally in my life, during those fleeting instances when I'm "present" in the moment, when I'm really living life being aware of it, I'll have various feelings of contentment, vibrance, happiness, joy, satisfaction, sadness, melancholy, appreciation, acceptance. Taking a walk outside by myself for example and being fully aware of life around me, through me and in me. Even with any pain, sadness or sorrow I might carry, in moments such as those I think:

"This is my heaven. This is all that I need. It's all that I want. I don't need perfection, nor do I even want it. Pain, suffering, sadness, the fleeting nature of life can be just as beautiful as joy and happiness; those things are a counterbalance and the pains are things that make life real just as the joys are. I don't need more than this. I'm not expecting it or demanding it. My heaven is imperfect. It's like a worn and broken antique that's beautiful for and in what it is. I don't want for it to be made new and flawless in every way. This patina means everything. Look at it. Really look at it; really feel it. It's there to see and to feel. It's overwhelmingly beautiful. It's my heaven. It's my life.

 

[Markness]

Hinduism has the positions that there are multiple afterlives or you come back to this plane of existence to try again. It just depends on what Yama, their ‘Lord of the Dead’, decides for your soul.

 

[watersprite]

@Magna Have you read That All Shall Be Saved, by David Bentley Hart.

 

[Magna]

@Magna Have you read That All Shall Be Saved, by David Bentley Hart.

No I have not. What is it about?

 

[Markness]

Fun facts: Yama’s Japanese equivalent, Enma, appears in both the Dragon Ball and YuYu Hakusho franchises. I will upload the photos after a bit.

 

[watersprite]

I haven’t finished it. (A bad habit I’m trying to change)
I started it because it is interesting to me why humans think there is such a thing as a hell, since if God created everything, then creating hell would indicate God is, in the author’s words, “viciously vindictive.”

Edited to add excerpts:

 

[watersprite]

No I have not. What is it about?

A sentence from the description:
“On the basis of the earliest Christian writings, theological tradition, scripture, and logic, Hart argues that if God is the good Creator of all, He is the saviour of all, without fail.”

 

[Markness]

I can’t get the other photo uploaded for some strange reason. Oh well! I hope I’ll meet someone like him when I reach the other side of the physical universe.

 

[PinkPhilodendron]

I believe too that heaven sounds kind of boring. Also if there is no shadow how can I distinguish the light?
So I think that the answer is "Life". And not being eternal makes it even more valuable...
I also think the idea of heaven and hell has more of a motivational origin...probably from a time where life was much harder and full of suffering for most of people. Heaven would be a nice piece of hope to keep going without despair.

 

[Ella Spell]

From Wuthering Heights:


'If I were in heaven, Nelly, I should be extremely miserable.'

'Because you are not fit to go there,' I answered. 'All sinners would be miserable in heaven.'

'But it is not for that. I dreamt once that I was there.'

'I tell you I won't hearken to your dreams, Miss Catherine!'
She laughed, and held me down; for I made a motion to leave my chair.

'This is nothing,' cried Catherine. 'I was only going to say that heaven did not seem to be my home; and I broke my heart with weeping to come back to earth; and the angels were so angry that they flung me out into the middle of the heath on the top of Wuthering Heights where I woke sobbing for joy.'

 

[SimonSays]

This is my heaven. This is all that I need. It's all that I want. I don't need perfection, nor do I even want it. Pain, suffering, sadness, the fleeting nature of life can be just as beautiful as joy and happiness; those things are a counterbalance and the pains are things that make life real just as the joys are. I don't need more than this. I'm not expecting it or demanding it. My heaven is imperfect. It's like a worn and broken antique that's beautiful for and in what it is. I don't want for it to be made new and flawless in every way. This patina means everything. Look at it. Really look at it; really feel it. It's there to see and to feel. It's overwhelmingly beautiful. It's my heaven. It's my life.

Exactly. It's your heaven because it's all there is. The other stuff, what you think and believe, is no longer relevant, because it was always just what you think and believe. But in this present moment, which is all there ever is, as you describe, so eloquently, nothing else is needed, so it must be exactly what you're looking for, your heaven. What else could that feeling be?

 

[Magna]

I haven’t finished it. (A bad habit I’m trying to change)
I started it because it is interesting to me why humans think there is such a thing as a hell, since if God created everything, then creating hell would indicate God is, in the author’s words, “viciously vindictive.”

Edited to add excerpts:
View attachment 73945 View attachment 73946 View attachment 73947 View attachment 73948 View attachment 73949

@watersprite Thank you for the suggestion and for posting that. That's an interesting idea about God. I would assume based on how I was taught about Christianity that a rebuttal to that would likely be that God didn't actively create hell. God allowed/allows Satan to have a certain amount of power and the concept of hell is a place in which God is completely absent. In other words, Satan created hell and God allowed/allows it to exist. Thinking about it more, even if God didn't actively create hell, God had a passive hand in hell's creation by allowing it to to be created. Interesting thought to ponder. Thanks again.

 

[Gerontius]

I'm fine with the idea of hell existing, and if Satan, in rebellion against God, hates God so much the sight of divinity would be torture--then perhaps hell in itself may be a certain mercy in a strange hellish way.

But as for that third option--what if Earth is that third option? If those beautiful moments where everything is so right are maybe just the third option we need & it makes sense to us?

I always thought of those moments as a little hint of heaven, anyway, and they're pretty nice. One was laying out in the yard as a kid looking up at the sky, petting the old family dog and watching the clouds. The sky was so blue that it hurt to look at it, but there were some clouds, and I could see the details and all in them and it was fantastic.

Another time I was out in a huge open field sitting up on top of a very old horse with a fairly tolerable disposition. I was just hanging out on top of this horse while he was mowing the lawn...like "cat on Roomba" but scaled up. And it was a nice moment of just enjoying everything as it was.

Then the time I wrecked my car out in the forest and had to dig it out the ditch. That was a good day--Working hard at building a log ramp to drive that thing out of the deep ditch by the railway line, sweating and covered in dust and digging with my hands to get the dirt off the running-gear and get the car freed up and moveable again, digging and adjusting and digging until finally it was balanced out with the back wheels sitting on the road again--that was a good day. Not that I'd launched my car into a blackberry patch but that I'd had to face down a challenge and do it.

Or a morning in the woods and the first bird to wake up is a ruby-crowned kinglet.

If there's a 3rd spot between heaven & hell, what if we take hell out the equation temporarily, for the fun of appreciating the sheer beauty of the present, and focus on earth? Heaven will be there if we're ready, and hell I'm not exactly interested in going to although I've burnt the hell out of the Decalogue. But earth is here & it's what I got now. Science and reason reveal it to be the most beautiful ball in a vast universe of beauty. As long as I got serotonin enough to let my brain work and as long as I still got my wits, I'm going to be glad to exist--Right here--right now. Mighty good living, is living.

Sure it's a beast but life itself is beautiful and I think that "third place" is just Life.

 

[watersprite]

Nicely said @Gerontius .

 

[Magna]

When I was a teenager I often wondered if hell could be where we are now. That earth was hell. Because you can experience and see wonderful things here but also endless suffering. And that`s hellish, you see a beautiful bird and the world is nice. And then it`s run over by a car. You become a parent and the world is perfect. Then you lose your child. A hell with only suffering and pain all the time isn`t as bad as this place we live in. Maybe I was overthinking things back then?

At the point in life I am now, I don`t really care if there is a heaven or hell. I`m here and doing the best I can. Whatever happens later, happens later. I`ll deal with that then.

A favorite movie of mine is one that's hard to find now. A 1985 Australian film starring Barry Otto called Bliss. It's not to be confused with movies from 1997 and 2021 with the same name since neither is related to the 1985 gem at all . The main character has a heart attack and after being revived, sees things as he never had before. He's now acutely aware of all the bad/evil things in life around him and he's convinced that he didn't survive his heart attack, but instead he died and woke up in hell.

I loved the movie and recommend it if it can be found streaming, etc.

 

[watersprite]

The little sign I made and stuck to the wall here says,
happiness is not a noun.
I have screamed and grieved for the deaths of my closest people, and I have rejoiced when finding out my daughter was not dead but recovering in hospital. Those are emotions, not glimpses of hell or heaven. Our whole lives, all of the textures and darks and lights, are all valid and vital parts of creation of life. It is us who are “it.” We can’t see through the layers but that doesn’t mean we are not creating along with every other critter and leaf and cell and even viruses.
It is sometimes a matter of getting up and walking away from something and toward something else. Hold your fear’s hand & go.

 

[Tom]

I don't know what it will be like in it's detail.

But something I think on, is that the original place set up for us was a natural garden with trees, plants and animals. Perhaps it's possible we will be able to enjoy something like that again. I hope so. But it's hard to imagine what our feelings will be like as our nature will be changed. Sort of like how can the catapiller know what it's like to be a butterfly, until they become one.

 

[Raggamuffin]

"The bible, that’s God book, as far as I know the devil hasn’t brought out a book yet, haven’t heard his side of the argument. God’s just writing [deleted] about him, and the devil’s being the bigger man and saying I’m not even going to comment, talking [deleted] about me like that." Jim Jefferies

I think there is something after death. But I think heaven/hell are just threats to keep people inline with said religion. "Follow what we do, otherwise you go here..."

I find it interesting that in Islam, hell is temporary for Muslims but permanent for those who follow other religions. How convenient.

Ed

 

[Magna]

I find it interesting that in Islam, hell is temporary for Muslims but permanent for those who follow other religions. How convenient.

I didn't know that. Catholicism has a vaguely similar belief then about fellow Christians (not just Catholics) and non-believers. Those that believe in God/Jesus and try their best to lead a virtuous life likely go to Purgatory; not hell, but a waiting room of sorts to spend time in purification. If a soul makes it to purgatory, then the soul is absolutely guaranteed to go to Heaven, it's just a matter of when. Whereas non-believers, namely those that reject God would likely be going to hell forever.

 

[watersprite]

Supposedly the non-believers get a less ouchie part of hell.*

That non-Catholics go to hell is the first “selling point” I can remember as a child listening at mass and thinking, “hmm, sounds like tnese guys are trying to scare me into being Catholic. And I don’t like bullies. I know where God and I talk and it is not via this avuncular show-off who says all the people of other faiths go to hell. That’s more conceited than even my older brothers and sister.”
Since I detest unfairness I moved on from Catholicism despite loving certain aspects of it.
—-
*
Abba Macarius said, ‘Walking in the desert one day, I found the skull of a dead man, lying on the ground. As I was moving it with my stick, the skull spoke to me. I said to it, “Who are you?” The skull replied, “I was high priest of the idols and of the pagans who dwelt in this place; but you are Macarius, the Spirit-bearer. Whenever you take pity on those who are in torments, and pray for them, they feel a little respite.” The old man said to him, “What is this alleviation, and what is this torment?” He said to him, “As far as the sky is removed from the earth, so great is the fire beneath us; we ourselves standing in the midst of the fire, from the feet up to the head. It is not possible to see anyone face to face, but the face of one is fixed to the back of another. Yet when you pray for us, each of us can see the other’s face a little. Such is our respite.” The old man in tears said, “Alas the day when that man was born!” He said to the skull, “Are there any punishments which are more painful than this?” The skull said to him, “There is a more grievous punishment down below us.” The old man said, “Who are the people down there?” The skulls said to him: “We have received a little mercy since we did not know God, but those who know God and denied Him are down below us.” Then, picking up the skull, the old man buried it.’

(Apophthegmata Patrum, Macarius the Great, no. 38, tr. Ward)