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Feeling Stupid Whenever I Socialize

VintageKitty

Raging Autist
I don’t know if this is a part of my self-loathing, but whenever I finish a conversation with someone outside of my close circle or family, it’s like my inner critic berates me for every little mistake I’ve either made or what I falsely perceive as a mistake.

Whenever I talk to people outside of my circle, it’s like I’m dancing with two left feet, so to speak. I just mostly listen to others talk and interject whenever it’s deemed appropriate for me to do so.

Part of me also just wants to talk about my special interests and my writing whenever the conversation becomes open-ended enough to do so, and I just feel so damn silly for feeling this way ‘cause I know it’s not appropriate to do that.

I don’t know if any of this is normal for autistic people or if it’s a sign of a deeper issue.
 
I don't think its uncommon for autistic people at all, I can certainly relate. In terms of you asking about a deeper issue, it sounds like your describing social anxiety. Not to say that is a "deeper" issue, if anything I'd guess autism is the deeper issue and social anxiety is the surface issue.
 
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The worst of this I face is worrying if I put people off or annoyed them (likely born from the fear of losing the few relationships I have). I'm abrasive and very forward in stating my opinions and usually people that speak this way are also defensive about what they believe and get offended if you disagree and such.
The problem being of course that people are trained to be cautious around that personality and just let it slide and they don't really want to talk to someone like that. But I don't mind being told I'm stupid or wrong, I really don't, I'm not attached to my opinions in that way. What I really fear is being called annoying. I want the other person to have at least close to the amount of fun talking to me that I have talking to them. It's not easy, especially if I get excited. Happened just moments ago in fact, now I'm waiting until I see them again so I can apologize.
 
I don’t know if this is a part of my self-loathing, but whenever I finish a conversation with someone outside of my close circle or family, it’s like my inner critic berates me for every little mistake I’ve either made or what I falsely perceive as a mistake.

Whenever I talk to people outside of my circle, it’s like I’m dancing with two left feet, so to speak. I just mostly listen to others talk and interject whenever it’s deemed appropriate for me to do so.

Part of me also just wants to talk about my special interests and my writing whenever the conversation becomes open-ended enough to do so, and I just feel so damn silly for feeling this way ‘cause I know it’s not appropriate to do that.

I don’t know if any of this is normal for autistic people or if it’s a sign of a deeper issue.

I think it is normal for autistic people and you are like many people in this group.
 
Its totally normal, I am on my forties and still do it from time to time.

Failing, reflecting and learning from mistakes means that you care and its a way of improve your social skills.

You can also read, watch videos or take some courses on making friends, communication, social skills and human behavour. You dont need to discover the weel by yourself. There is a lot of valuable info out there.
 
Universal. Everyone wants to talk about their own things, and everybody judges themselves. You probably just do it excessively. CBT is proven to help this dramatically, the part about judging yourself.
 
I don’t know if this is a part of my self-loathing, but whenever I finish a conversation with someone outside of my close circle or family, it’s like my inner critic berates me for every little mistake I’ve either made or what I falsely perceive as a mistake.

Whenever I talk to people outside of my circle, it’s like I’m dancing with two left feet, so to speak. I just mostly listen to others talk and interject whenever it’s deemed appropriate for me to do so.

Part of me also just wants to talk about my special interests and my writing whenever the conversation becomes open-ended enough to do so, and I just feel so damn silly for feeling this way ‘cause I know it’s not appropriate to do that.

I don’t know if any of this is normal for autistic people or if it’s a sign of a deeper issue.

This very closely describes what goes on for my husband around socialising outside of people he's already comfortable with. He functions fine in his work and always has (or anyplace interactions have structure to them), and this really stumped me about him when I began to notice it when he and I first got together, 15 years ago. Initially I didn't see it because we were spending so much one-on-one time and things there worked really well.

He was, and is, an exceptionally good listener, with thoughtful things to say in response, and with me, he was fine talking about all sorts of things, with more breadth and depth than I'd ever encountered with previous conversational partners, which was (and is) great. But he clammed up around strangers. At first I thought it was a cultural difference: I'm part-Italian, have lived in Italy and have a big extroverted streak - love connecting with others. He's culturally English, which is associated with introversion and a stiff upper lip, boys don't cry, let's sweep things under the rug and put on a good face etc.

But that was only part of it; and finding out this is an Aspie trait made me think about it differently: That it's not just cultural, or social anxiety, etc. That I have to think about accommodating that and not just in terms of, "How can we get past this?" Because though I mostly think, "Let's just re-write that code! And let's go out there and make some good experiences around this!" (etc) - and I had to do so much of that myself as a young adult in particular - it's not actually that easy, especially for people predisposed to a particular thing.

I realised that this is a lot more difficult for him than it was/is for me, for a number of reasons including cultures exposed to, different life experiences around certain things, psychological self-education, level of insight into the self, socialisation of males into stereotypical roles, type of employment chosen for career and the social experience and practising of skill sets around that, amount of positive re-shaping experiences for early challenges, and also type of brain (Aspie traits, etc).

About wanting to talk about your interests, I don't really see that as any different than other people wanting to discuss theirs. Maybe your thing is writing or astrophysics, and a more common thing is talking about beer and sport and celebrities. The problem is that people with outlier interests don't have as much opportunity to exchange freely about them without feeling socially awkward, or getting negative feedback from other people. That doesn't mean they have any less of a need to talk about them, and when you don't get the opportunity, it bottles up and you kind of get more desperate, and this kind of turns into a negative feedback loop. And it's alienating.

So when you find other outlier-interest people to talk to, that can be really liberating, not to mention educational! Or when you work with children, who are interested in so many things compared to the average NT adult. I think a lot of the baggage around socialising for ND people is around not meeting "like" people very often, and secondary to that, rather than all-primary. Without the positive experiences and the enjoyment of being with others, you can't develop the confidence etc etc. It's interesting to note that other differences than ND vs NT also commonly produce such fallout - e.g. cultural/racial ostracisation, gender, physical disability.
 
The worst of this I face is worrying if I put people off or annoyed them (likely born from the fear of losing the few relationships I have). I'm abrasive and very forward in stating my opinions and usually people that speak this way are also defensive about what they believe and get offended if you disagree and such.
The problem being of course that people are trained to be cautious around that personality and just let it slide and they don't really want to talk to someone like that. But I don't mind being told I'm stupid or wrong, I really don't, I'm not attached to my opinions in that way.

I read a really interesting comment on the difference between typical Western behaviour around that, and the norms that author Mark Manson discovered on a holiday in Russia, about the culture there. (Let's not think about the corrupt sociopaths in charge there, let's just think about something to do with Russian culture this writer noticed.)

Let's see if I can dig it up. ...OK, here it is.
In 2011, I traveled to St Petersburg, Russia. The food sucked. The weather sucked. (Snow in May? Are you f*cking kidding me?) My apartment sucked. Nothing worked. Everything was overpriced. The people were rude and smelled funny. Nobody smiled and everyone drank too much. Yet, I loved it. It was one of my favourite trips.

There's a bluntness in Russian culture that generally rubs Westerners up the wrong way. Gone are the fake niceties and verbal webs of politeness. You don't smile at strangers or pretend to like anything you don't. In Russia, if something is stupid, you say it's stupid. If someone is being an a-hole you tell him he's being an a-hole. If you really like someone and are having a great time, you tell her that you like her and are having a great time. It doesn't matter if this person is your friend, a stranger, or someone you met five minutes ago on the street.

The first week I found all of this really uncomfortable. I went on a coffee date with a Russian girl, and within three minutes of sitting down she looked at me funny and told me that what I'd just said was stupid. I nearly choked on my drink. There was nothing combative about the way she said it; it was spoken as if it were some mundane fact - like the quality of the weather that day, or her shoe size - but I was still shocked. After all, in the West such outspokenness is seen as highly offensive, especially from someone you just met. But it went on like this with everyone. Everyone came across as rude all the time, and as a result, my Western-coddled mind felt attacked on all sides. Nagging insecurities began to surface in situations where they hadn't existed in years.

But as the weeks wore on, I got used to the Russian frankness, much as I did the midnight sunsets and the vodka than went down like ice water. And then I started appreciating it for what it was: unadulterated expression. Honesty in the truest sense of the word. Communication, with no conditions, no strings attached, no ulterior motive, no sales job, no desperate attempt to be liked.

Somehow, after years of travel, it was perhaps in the most un-American of places where I first experienced a particular flavor of freedom: the ability to say whatever I thought or felt, without fear of repercussion. It was a strange form of liberation through accepting rejection. And as someone who had been starved of this kind of blunt expression most of his life - first by an emotionally repressed family life, then later by meticulously constructed false displays of confidence - I got drunk on it like, well, like it was the finest damn vodka I'd ever had. The month I spent in St Petersburg went by in a blur, and by the end I didn't want to leave.

Travel is a fantastic self-development tool, because it extricates you from the values of your culture and shows you that another society can live with entirely different values and still function and not hate themselves. This exposure to different cultural values and metrics then forces you to reexamine what seems obvious in your life and to consider that perhaps it's not necessarily the best way to live. In this case, Russia had me reexamining the bullshitty, fake-nice communication that is so common in Anglo culture, and asking myself if this wasn't somehow making us more insecure around each other and worse at intimacy.

I remember discussing this dynamic with my Russian teacher one day, and he had an interesting theory. Having lived under communism for so many generations, with little or no economic opportunity and caged by a culture of fear, Russian society found the most valuable currency to be trust. And to build trust you have to be honest. That means when things suck, you say so openly and without apology. People's displays of unpleasant honesty were rewarded for the simple fact that they were necessary for survival - you had to know whom you could rely on and whom you couldn't, and you needed to know quickly.

But, in the "free" West, my Russian teacher continued, there existed an abundance of economic opportunity - so much economic opportunity that it became far more valuable to present yourself in a certain way, even if it was false, than to actually be that way. Trust lost its value. Appearances and salesmanship became more advantageous forms of expression. Knowing a lot of people superficially was more beneficial than knowing a few people closely.

This is why it became the norm in Western cultures to smile and say polite things even when you don't feel like it, to tell little white and agree with someone whom you don't actually agree with. This is why people learn to pretend to be friends with people they don't actually like, to buy things they don't actually want. The economic system promotes such deception.

The downside of this is that you never know, in the West, if you can completely trust the person you're talking to. Sometimes this is the case even among good friends or family members. There is such pressure in the West to be likable that people often reconfigure their entire personality depending on the person they're dealing with.

...from The Subtle Art Of Not Giving a F*ck - The Counterintuitive Guide To Living A Good Life, Harper Collins, 2016. Like every book, it doesn't have all the answers, and I disagree with some of the things in that book, but it's well worth reading because thought-provoking and will get you to think about how you personally want to approach life.
 
Both @Fino and @Callistemon are right in that its totally natural that you want to talk about your interests. I would like to go deeper about this.

  • If you observe childs you will notice that they interrup each other to talk about their interests and still dont know how to properly let a group conversation flow. As they tend to play the "we are all equal in rigths game". Thats a bit how we autists work as adults, our social skills are those of childs. So we can have great conversation with childs.
  • On the other hand, adults must attend more social norms. The time we have to talk about our interests depends on our positions on the social piramid of that group. Leaders and main followers are allowed to talk more, while people down the social structure of the group must applaud their occurences and merely contribute to the main topic presented by them. Taking the protagonism in an already structured adult human social group is not that easy. Let me put an example:
    • I am expected (as boss of my working group) to take the leathership in that group, set the rules, allow my best coworkers to take more participation and to pay attention to the outcast time to properly interrup them and joke about them if they are taking too much protagonism. I am not allowed to treat all them equally on group dinamics time, since its a human group and those group do have social norms. If I did that, I would lose the leathership of my own group which is weak by the way.
    • When I am in a meeting of group bosses under the leadership of a higher boss, I must behave as follower and the dinamic is different. I must be aware of the signals of when my turn comes, and make good coments that help the goals of the leader and his interests (not mines). If he is interested in something, its advisable that I also show interest in that thing, and if he laughts of some idea (even if the idea has potential) I must discart it, as we as a group have been given a social indication about that idea (or the person behind the idea) being discarted by the leader.
    • When I am invited to attend a meeting of leaders that have the same rank my boss have, I must notice I have been honored to be there just to listen or to help my boss to answer some technical question about my area. My tone and body language should be those of a lower follower.
So the rules about what to say, when to say it, tone, body language, etc... changes on every situation and on every social group. Some groups are easier to handle (like university) and others are more difficult (like corporative). Typically the more horizontal the social piramid the easier for us since its closer to how childs organize themselves. The more vertical the structure, the more difficult.

One nice exercice to practice this is to change the way you dress and looks to do things like taking a casual walk in the city or go shopping in a place you are not known. If you pay attention you will notice that you treated diferently depending on your disguise. If you disguise yourself like an outcast, society will treat you acordingly. The same happens when you camouflate like a normal citizen. The society will try to accomodate you in your place of the piramid.

So If you ever win lotery, buy a very nice car that will be driven by your chofer, go to a nice restaurant dressed with fine clothes and a nice looking partner, trust me in this, you will be applauded when you talk about your personal interest by the same kind of people who would bully you now.

NT society works like that.
 
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Your struggle is similar to a common feature of ASD. In social settings, and despite my learning some social convention and social communication it takes me time to process things. Having to work in different countries was draining at times when I had to pay attention to different social conventions to be able to be effective. But the experience taught me to better pay attention to the conventions in the culture I I belong to.
 
I don’t know if this is a part of my self-loathing, but whenever I finish a conversation with someone outside of my close circle or family, it’s like my inner critic berates me for every little mistake I’ve either made or what I falsely perceive as a mistake.

Whenever I talk to people outside of my circle, it’s like I’m dancing with two left feet, so to speak. I just mostly listen to others talk and interject whenever it’s deemed appropriate for me to do so.

Part of me also just wants to talk about my special interests and my writing whenever the conversation becomes open-ended enough to do so, and I just feel so damn silly for feeling this way ‘cause I know it’s not appropriate to do that.

I don’t know if any of this is normal for autistic people or if it’s a sign of a deeper issue.
I feel exactly the same way.
 
I don’t know if this is a part of my self-loathing, but whenever I finish a conversation with someone outside of my close circle or family, it’s like my inner critic berates me for every little mistake I’ve either made or what I falsely perceive as a mistake.

Hmm, so looks like I'm the weird one, since I don't have inner critic like that? The closest I have is "inner coward", who helps point out potentially dangerous mistakes, we obsess about what we could have done better, or what could have gone worse, and then completely agree with each other that we should avoid humans whenever possible, since we are clearly not cunning nor vicious enough to handle them... :catface:
 

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