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Employment troubles improved with conscription ; ]

Gomendosi

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Mmmm, this might prove to be a sticky suggestion but I reckon that we would see a better world than we have now if we enlisted everybody (able bodied or not) at 18 for a mandatory 4 year stint in the armed forces which gives them long enough to apprentice in some trade, then upon release they will work in an old folks home for a year.
The armed forces would give the youth direction and discipline while removing the temptation to be idle and feckless, while the aged care would teach them humility and respect, plus all combined would give them purpose and wisdom, this sure beats the hell out of the way you see the young people that are getting around your local shopping centre these days.

Mayhap I am being too harsh you think, but I would volunteer to help in some capacity, I am sure there would be something I could do with the level of capabilities I have, this would serve to end my own joblessness as well so it would be a win win all round, what do you say?
 
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King_Oni

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
I've touched upon this a while ago in a blog on here. Conscription isn't mandatory here and I've come to believe that since that happened, there's been a huge gap of people without any sense of purpose and/or direction. And yes, I'm part of that generation.

I did however take a different spin on it. I'm quite sure I wouldn't get through psych evaluations for the army (I'm already failing psych evaluations on the regular jobmarket). It might help to give people services earlier on and in that way would prevent people from endlessly trying to fit into programs that do not work for them, and eventually it would save up a decent penny from the government (since government funded education etc.).

The issue I see however with this kind of conscription is finances. Governments are already strapped for cash and limiting the amount of people to voluntarily enter the armed forces. And since everything revolves around money and "leeching" off taxes to get their finances all sorted out, governments couldn't even start to compensate everyone for this. And while I think a government could say "well, you get food and a roof over your head, you don't need money" I believe there are some treaties, at least in europe, that prohibit this kind of compensation since it would fall under a form of slavery (much like letting people on welfare work for below minimumwage. There have been courtcases over this in the past year over here).

Also; Ablebodied or not. What are plans for the not so able bodied? Someone crippled from the neck down isn't much of an asset and pretty much more of a liability in "forced labor". Unless you of course expect these people to sort it out themselves and if neccesary just die. Yes, that's harsh.

And the idea of conscription just as means to get some kind of knowledge to eventually learn a skill for future employment is a good idea, but I don't know if this applies to people who have a different way to process information... aspies would be a good example, but there's a lot of other people that clearly don't deal with "universal teaching methods". It would become a liability and a giant moneysink as well. And if we would rather just send these people on the frontlines as cannon fodder since with no skills they're expandable I'm quite sure some human rights organisations amongst other organisations would like a word with any nation enforcing that.

I don't think there would be anything wrong with a boarding school type system, but if you're talking armed forces you're potentially sending people to their deaths in the frontlines. And that actually is something that should happen voluntarily... but then again, I don't hold nationalism and patriotism in high regard at all and I could care less to defend my country when it comes to that. The notion of treason is silly to me, since I don't think it's fair to expect someone to fight for something just because it happens I've crawled out of my mothers reproductive organs on a certain geographic location.
 

total-recoil

Well-Known Member
Why would the measure of a man be evaluated through being enlisted to the armed forces? I mean, my role models have always been the total opposite, figures like John Lennon, for example. The army, to my mind, is the exact opposite of what I aspire to, given there is this resistance to individuality and expression in the military.
However, perhaps if you had used the martial arts as an alternative, I'd have been more inclined to agree. There is discipline in a Karate or TKD class that would benefit lots of people and it stops a person getting out of condition physically. Still, I think the difference is that martial arts teaches philosophy and to develop the mind whereas the army and forces in general really try to force people to conform.
So, agree with some of what you said,. I guess.

Mmmm, this might prove to be a sticky suggestion but I reckon that we would see a better world than we have now if we enlisted everybody (able bodied or not) at 18 for a mandatory 4 year stint in the armed forces which gives them long enough to apprentice in some trade, then upon release they will work in an old folks home for a year.
The armed forces would give the youth direction and discipline while removing the temptation to be idle and feckless, while the aged care would teach them humility and respect, plus all combined would give them purpose and wisdom, this sure beats the hell out of the way you see the young people that are getting around your local shopping centre these days.

Mayhap I am being too harsh you think, but I would volunteer to help in some capacity, I am sure there would be something I could do with the level of capabilities I have, this would serve to end my own joblessness as well so it would be a win win all round, what do you say?
 

total-recoil

Well-Known Member
I've often thought that somehow there is a big gap between social development and prosperity as it stands today and then back in the sixties. By that I mean, even in the sixties which was a liberal period, people seemed to dress smart and the streets were clean. All the shops seemed to gleam and people in general were polite. Education was definitely very good back then. Today, something has gone wrong. Where I live the streets seem dirty, crime is quite high, shops are often seen boarded up and I'm sure education isn't what it used to be. And on that theme I always strongly believed education should be free at all levels as I think the benefit spirals outwards to the rest of society. That is, an educated population is often more employable and so on.
I know what you mean that there is a problem but the reasons behind it are fairly diverse and it would be hard to find a far-reaching solution, In my younger days education was totally free if you got the grades and there was far far more employment in decent jobs that paid a good wage so very little crime. Today there is no free higher education, the welfare state is fragile (if it exists at all) and jobs are scarce.

Mmmm, this might prove to be a sticky suggestion but I reckon that we would see a better world than we have now if we enlisted everybody (able bodied or not) at 18 for a mandatory 4 year stint in the armed forces which gives them long enough to apprentice in some trade, then upon release they will work in an old folks home for a year.
The armed forces would give the youth direction and discipline while removing the temptation to be idle and feckless, while the aged care would teach them humility and respect, plus all combined would give them purpose and wisdom, this sure beats the hell out of the way you see the young people that are getting around your local shopping centre these days.

Mayhap I am being too harsh you think, but I would volunteer to help in some capacity, I am sure there would be something I could do with the level of capabilities I have, this would serve to end my own joblessness as well so it would be a win win all round, what do you say?
 

Gomendosi

Well-Known Member
V.I.P Member
Of course we all know the real problem is that there are too many people on the planet packed too densely in too few areas, but that is a potential discussion for another thread ; ]

To help the conversation along I will clarify that in this hypothetical system the armed forces are the institution not the intent, there wouldn't be any fighting going on! Just the structure of military life is all that is needed. My opinion is that supposedly only the best of the best get to be soldiers with access to all sorts of things the average Joe doesn't have just because they may at some point risk their lives? Well what if everybody in the country started off with the same teaching, it wouldn't be exclusive and we all know that what's common is usually cheap, so every child gets to have their childhood and when they reach "legal" age (18 in Australia) they get to grow up, most folk in society today are Peter Pan-ning it by extending the childhood faze of life as long as they are able, they remain at home for longer, spend more time between secondary school and college or just avoid college altogether (for many and varied reasons, I know). They have plenty of relationships and avoid commitment despite churning out multitudes of children of their own, they cant afford to settle down so they are transitory a lot of the time. This is not how a young persons life is best lived I reckon ; ]

Take a person born in the seventies to a below average family, the family unit is not tight and has very little income, too many children of one or other parent causing the common step-family problems, that child has no decent home base to launch off of and so falls by the wayside in society, the child emulates the parents and slips into familiar patterns and becomes just another consumer. Now imagine that child is given a military style (life) education from age 18 onward, then works with the chronologically advanced among us.
What do we think that child could have become, where would that child be today as an adult?

The military has no bearing on the measure of the man, a mans actions are by which he is defined and if you have no solid foundation to build on how are you ever supposed to be expected to stand up to be counted, this proposal gives the youth that choice whatever their financial and sociological standing, it evens the playing field.

Now lets look at conscription, in theory it offers stability, going to college is mandatory, you would learn discipline and work ethic, you're mostly devoid of distraction and dependant for the large part upon no other but yourself, you learn camaraderie and mateship, form lifelong bonds and have people around you that you can depend on. Rather than amplify your weaknesses and dwell on what you cant do you are convinced that you are capable and can move forward with support from people who actually want you to succeed. The kind of conscription I am talking about is in terms of "you have to do it, it is the law" not; "we are going to war", if a war ever breaks out then any person brought up this way would be free to enlist of their own volition as the actual military wouldn't have any claim to these youths save for saying they made them what they are today, unless of course they are then actually conscripted like they were in the previous wars LOL

Well, lets dissect the aged care portion of the suggestion, aged care is flagging, it is an industry that is growing exponentially and ex-military style personnel could well bolster the ranks of dedicated nurses quite easily, leaving them to do the proper nursing and not be overstretched and understaffed like they are now, our youth would lose the stigma that is slowly being attached to the elderly in the western world, they would learn acceptance of the end of life and about dignity, they would come to appreciate the wisdom of the aged like the eastern countries do, having revered their own elderly for many centuries. They would learn patience and how to be humble, something we can all benefit from actually! This is still all theoretical mind you.

So, we set someone from a training/ learning regime like that onto the open road and they can literally fit in anywhere, unlike in comparison, the youth we see now that have no interest or attention span, they only have self as the all pervading drive. Wouldn't you rather someone that is going to help given the opportunity than somebody who sees the opportunity as just another chore?

As to being able bodied or not, it seems to me that there is some confusion as to what able bodied is, for people who are not able bodied, we want to be treated like the rest of you, but then there are those scamming scumbags who want something for nothing and will always be able to convince everybody of the unfortunate maladies that prevent them from doing an honest days work for an decent wage. I firmly believe that everybody that wants to work can be found something to do!!! Ask a disabled person if they want your pity or just to be valued.

It has been my understanding from the point of view of having had a job in the government sector, in employment as it happens, that if somebody says I have a job for you and you turn them down for a valid reason then all the more power to you, but if they adjust things for you so your needs are accommodated and come back and offer something more suited to you and you turn them down again, then there is a very good chance that you are plain lazy, should they then further tailor a job to your laundry list of ailments and you still turn them down... then you are no longer fooling anybody except yourself. I am not one of those people but have been put into the same category, which is something that sticks in my craw.

Everybody... CAN... do something, whether it is answering phones or sorting screws of different sizes into bags, hell, there are people out there that get to test video games for a living, and equally, there are also people that would convincingly reason as to why they could only play games recreationally so that their disability allowance wouldn't be cut off!

Anyhow, If we went a step further with this scenario why couldn't we incorporate military training into regular jobs, rather than teach all jobs from a military perspective we could have regular business people take classes and tutor students. But our young people would also be brought up better physically so surely crime would eventually drop and athleticism and health would be on the rise from the trickle down effect. Obviously I don't have all the answers so it is foolhardy of me to attempt to redress all points to the contrary ; ]

Well, one step even further again could see all youth from this point on, being "on file" in such a way that if a [job name] is needed suddenly in [place], it could be looked up on the database to see who has had training in that job that isn't currently employed, and bam, they get relocated and employed.

And again, don't mistake that I am talking about militarising whole countries because you can have military style training without needing to go to war to justify it, just look at all those bootcamps that people go in for nowadays, we don't have to actually train them FOR anything, just give them the training. It seems to me that the government would be all for this as having to pay for jobless shits just sitting around doing nothing would be instead channelled into stopping the next generation from having to be jobless in the first place, by virtue of what I propose with some obvious fine tuning.

So the end result is an entire world where all youth are made to feel self worth, that would bring about a drop in unplanned pregnancies, in turn lowering the burgeoning population, it would lead to a shift back to common sense and reasoning, and accepting fault and taking blame, you'd get a rise in community spirit and civic pride, a return to acceptance of all persons which would further foster tolerance and inclusion. Of course these things are very long term benefits, this probably wouldn't be seen in any of our own lifetimes but it would pervade national culture as it was the intention from the start, if the goal from the start had been to gain dominance by military might and numbers, then the outcome would be more or less what we are seeing most developed countries doing right now ; ]

It stands to reason that all these benefits far outweigh the expenditure and the ideas eventually pay for themselves, it could be argued that countries would in fact end up profiting, but I cant give all the answers or do all the thinking otherwise this becomes less of a conversation and more of a lecture.
 

Geordie

Geordie
This discussion would not be complete if we don't consider Aspies who went through conscription. Where I live, every male is supposed to serve in the armed forces or the police for 2 years, but I was exempted because of my autism. I may not be able to contribute fully and relevantly for the discussion, but I try.

I did not see myself benefiting under Singapore's armed or police forces. I did not have a track record of listening to instructions or following orders. Hence, I was left out of conscription. This effectively shuts the doors to a civil service job, opportunities in local universities through having an incomplete HS diploma (which I eventually overcame, but at great costs - of a not-too-optimal degree and unemployment), and dashed hopes for a complete, fulfilling life. All those self-blame, all those mumble and grumble... They just keep humming and buzzing.

I'd love to contribute and at least polish shoes for my superiors (I polish my own sneakers fresher than most others!) but alas, the Ministry of Defence has other ideas.

I may be a great academic on the way to a PhD degree if I lived in most other developed and growing countries, or perhaps a book-keeper, engineer or nurse if I live in other less developed locales. But I just happen to live in a society too rich to not offer me wonderful opportunities other countries may not offer, yet too resource-poor to uncover my resources. Society shapes a person he is, his standing, occupation and outlook in life.

But life is not all about wouldas, shouldas and couldas. All we want to do is to look at our issues, overcome them step by step, be realistic and yet keep our heads up, and this will do.

I do not think employment troubles can be improved with conscription alone. It is not enough. Conscription, forced and coerced with no support for the emotional and social needs of the conscript - even an Aspie included - will not help the Aspie's long-term development. I suppose not even a friendly all-Aspie army or police unit helps things. Aspies need not just something to do, but an understanding of what he can do best for society, through doing something which society values and desires in the Aspie - it can be collecting football statistics, collecting baseball cards, categorising bus models, and even - mind I say - training for professions he could do reasonably decently, like law, engineering or accounting. It has to be something he likes, not something forced upon, but those interests have to be those that keep interests high and putting smiles on people's faces.

Ultimately, we have to drum ourselves this idea that no matter what we are, we are all useful people in society. We have our place in society, in its very unexpected ways. Just open your eyes, keep looking forward, and walk where the path ahead leads us to.
 

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