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Empathy

Eruva

Active Member
Years ago, I dismissed the idea that I could have Aspergers due to the word empathy. I had read that Aspies lack empathy, whereas I had social anxiety disorder which some think of as having too much empathy, so I thought the two were incompatible. More recently, I've come to the conclusion that when referring to autism, sometimes people are using a different definition of the word empathy. Instead of meaning the ability to recognize and feel what others feel, they mean the ability to respond to someone's emotions in a way that the other person deems appropriate.

Any thoughts on this? Which definition(s) do you think describe you?
 
Yes, thanks. I've seen people here talking about their own levels of empathy. I haven't seen anyone explore the concept of defining the word itself and the possibility that the medical community might be using it wrong.
 
Yes, thanks. I've seen people here talking about their own levels of empathy. I haven't seen anyone explore the concept of defining the word itself and the possibility that the medical community might be using it wrong.

I would tend to agree on a single point. Probably the most important point to me personally about empathy. That it isn't so much a matter of us not having it, but rather the problems associated with projecting it in a way most meaningful to Neurotypicals.

Not much of a surprise that NTs most likely don't seem to see it that way.
 
I seem to have extreme empathy, theres got to a better way of putting that, but I've nothing to measure myself against, it could be a normal response I have, tho I'm usually shocked by what happens in the world and people's mundane response to let it keep happening
 
Psychologist Mark Davis has suggested that there are types of empathy. The first is a purely "cognitive" form of empathy that he terms "Perspective-Taking." This is being able to see things from another's point of view. Putting yourself in someone else's shoes. It is important to better understand where someone is coming from, but it's not what we typically think of as empathy.

"Personal Distress." Personal distress is literally feeling another's emotions. When you are watching a scary movie, and you start to empathize with the hero and feel afraid, that is personal distress in action. You are actually feeling the other's emotion through a process called "emotional contagion."

Empathic Concern. This type is what we most often think about when we hear the term "empathy." It is the ability to recognize another's emotional state, feel in tune with that emotional state, and if it is a negative/distressful emotion, feel and show appropriate concern.

Are You Empathic? 3 Types of Empathy and What They Mean
 
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I'm not sure I would say that the medical community's definition is necessarily wrong, but I would say that the approach is, because it doesn't acknowledge that empathy could, maybe, be expressed in different manners. It seems to be a very binary view of it, which I would summarize as "People either have empathy a certain very set way, or they don't have empathy at all", and that's an utterly stupid way of seeing it. Yet, it seems that's the way most NTs screen other people for empathy.

But isn't it a very arbitrary, biased viewpoint on their part? Defining empathy as one thing only would be like saying that "language" is only tongue A, and therefore tongues B, C and D are not language because they are not tongue A.

I can do the cognitive type that Mia posted. Personal distress definitely, but that's because I have a talent for distress in general ;) As for the last one, umm... how does this work?
 
Empathic Concern. This type is what we most often think about when we hear the term "empathy." It is the ability to recognize another's emotional state, feel in tune with that emotional state, and if it is a negative/distressful emotion, feel and show appropriate concern.

I don't think those three things necessarily go together. Personally, I can recognize and feel, but "showing appropriate concern" is a challenge. Maybe the definition just needs to be broken down further. Or something
 
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Personally, i am challenged with ( but not entirely lacking in) cognitive empathy. This means I'm pretty clueless about social cues, body language, facial expressions.

But, I've got loads of affective empathy. This means that once I do know how you feel, then I feel deep compassion.

Back to the social disability aspect of autism.... I'm lost as far as having a sense of how to correctly and appropriately communicate my compassion and support, especially personally, in realtime.
 
If someone is talking with me describing a situation that I may have been through myself, I can empathise in so far as I have memories of how I felt. (Depression, anxiety, OCD, social awkwardness) and this person is describing how I felt therefore we have or are feeling the same way.
I understand it because I've felt it.

For most other things, information will go in... fullstop.
 
I'm not sure I would say that the medical community's definition is necessarily wrong, but I would say that the approach is, because it doesn't acknowledge that empathy could, maybe, be expressed in different manners. It seems to be a very binary view of it, which I would summarize as "People either have empathy a certain very set way, or they don't have empathy at all", and that's an utterly stupid way of seeing it. Yet, it seems that's the way most NTs screen other people for empathy.

But isn't it a very arbitrary, biased viewpoint on their part? Defining empathy as one thing only would be like saying that "language" is only tongue A, and therefore tongues B, C and D are not language because they are not tongue A.

I can do the cognitive type that Mia posted. Personal distress definitely, but that's because I have a talent for distress in general ;) As for the last one, umm... how does this work?

'Showing appropriate concern' to me is what the NT world is about.
It doesnt mean they give two hoots. Its about showing they do.
Whereas i may give three hoots but don't express it in a way they will accept.
Partly because they may not want empathy (or help) but just some unthinking sop who says 'oh infeelmso bad for you etc' at the appropriate times.... so they can feel better about themselves for a bit ie when their self image that they have created for themselves is threatened you have tomfollow the rules...
'Oh, thats terrible' 'oh you're brilliant,you're not that bad' etc

Ding ding! Ten minutes is up, then its the other persons turn to do the same. Ie pretend they give a hoot, so they get a hoot back. Tit for tat, hoot for hoot.
Is it empathy? Is it just a fomalised form of ego rubbing that we don't adhere to?
Certainly we dont do that. Partly because its stupid,partly because we dont follow social rules too well.

My version 'shut up.stop complaining.go out and help somebody'

Works well for therapy but there's no repeat business. Would have to invent some kind of process to get people to come back...
Got it 'closure'
:)
 
@Fridgemagnetman
It's that validation thing I don't do so well. By adding sympathy (not empathy) I feel like I am validating a persons choice to stay where they are (helplessness, gloom and doom, really negative, downward spiral of self sabotage) - I think this is your equivalent of ego rubbing?

I often feel by avoiding that and sticking to the facts I can home in on the possible root cause believing that if I know where something begins, we can look at the process and tweak a few behaviours to affect positive change.

That said, I believe it's a Lady's prerogative to feel listened to. Doesn't need anyone to fix things for her, just wants to be heard.
There is the possibility that my perception is a bit male-brained? (If it appears broken - find a way to fix it?)
 
@Fridgemagnetman
It's that validation thing I don't do so well. By adding sympathy (not empathy) I feel like I am validating a persons choice to stay where they are (helplessness, gloom and doom, really negative, downward spiral of self sabotage) - I think this is your equivalent of ego rubbing?

I often feel by avoiding that and sticking to the facts I can home in on the possible root cause believing that if I know where something begins, we can look at the process and tweak a few behaviours to affect positive change.

That said, I believe it's a Lady's prerogative to feel listened to. Doesn't need anyone to fix things for her, just wants to be heard.
There is the possibility that my perception is a bit male-brained? (If it appears broken - find a way to fix it?)

Yes for ego rubbing. That thing of wanting to be heard, not fix things.
I suppose i get lost in that angle. Partly because ,in a way its just 'giving off' and i misinterpret with offers to help.
Its trying to remember the game and don't fall into the trap of needing my interpretations to lord it over other peoples.
Or i might say to my wife (she's used to me)
'Is this the bit where i compliment you?'

Its amazing how much of this stuff i don't get but thats okay :)
I can learn some of it,in the middle of all the forgetting!
 
If someone is talking with me describing a situation that I may have been through myself, I can empathise in so far as I have memories of how I felt. (Depression, anxiety, OCD, social awkwardness) and this person is describing how I felt therefore we have or are feeling the same way.
I understand it because I've felt it.

For most other things, information will go in... fullstop.
I had difficulty knowing exactly what the word empathy meant too and have read definitions on it a number of times.
I think Gracey's post pretty well sums up the way I see it for myself too. If it is about something I've experienced then I can empathise. But, how does one relate or understand the feelings if the person is talking about something you have never felt yourself?
It's like someone who's grown up on the north pole telling someone who's always lived on the desert they understand how awful it must be to be too hot?
So, still kind of mixed up on that word.
 
Yes for ego rubbing. That thing of wanting to be heard, not fix things.
I suppose i get lost in that angle. Partly because ,in a way its just 'giving off' and i misinterpret with offers to help.
Its trying to remember the game and don't fall into the trap of needing my interpretations to lord it over other peoples.
Or i might say to my wife (she's used to me)
'Is this the bit where i compliment you?'

Its amazing how much of this stuff i don't get but thats okay :)
I can learn some of it,in the middle of all the forgetting!


I can say similar things to my husband :)
If he's looking at me expectantly, chances are I've missed a thank you or a compliment or some other social nicety to show I understand what he's done for me. That I recognise his time and effort... which I probably haven't recognised, until I recognise 'The look' which is my cue.
 
I too have social anxiety and amongst a face without emotion and a montoned voice and empathy, I thought that I can't have aspergers, until I came on here.

I think what we struggle with is "sympathy" and NT's are very good at that!

Empathy is, as you say, being able to imagine what it would be like in that person's shoes. We aspies are actually good at doing that, because we know how it feels to be on the outside. NT's are lousy at empathy.

I was told fairly recently that I am extordinary empathetic and I agree, but it can be very uncomfortable too, because I often misplace empathy. It is tiring to constantly be worried about another person.
 
View attachment 37002 Personally, i am challenged with ( but not entirely lacking in) cognitive empathy. This means I'm pretty clueless about social cues, body language, facial expressions.

But, I've got loads of affective empathy. This means that once I do know how you feel, then I feel deep compassion.

Back to the social disability aspect of autism.... I'm lost as far as having a sense of how to correctly and appropriately communicate my compassion and support, especially personally, in realtime.

If the girl in the picture was sick from over indulging, then I would find myself hard to be empathetic. I would tend to be thinking: how undignyfing.

I also find that when I am confronted by a crying female, for a couple of seconds, I can feel at one with her pain, but sadly, if she continues to cry, I find myself thinking: how funny she looks, with her face contorted like that etc
 
That said, I believe it's a Lady's prerogative to feel listened to. Doesn't need anyone to fix things for her, just wants to be heard.
There is the possibility that my perception is a bit male-brained? (If it appears broken - find a way to fix it?)

Interesting! I find it is very easy to have a "male brain" when it comes to someone else, but suddenly when it is about us, we are allowed to have a "female brain"?

My husband who is an NT is very dogmatic when he is "trying to help me", but completely the opposite when it is him in the role of needing support and it is amusing, because what he argues about regards to me, he goes in the opposite direction if it is about him, but I think that is most people's reaction.

I am good at being in a role, so to speak. So, if I see that my husband has felt offended by another, even if I think the other person has a point, I will try and find a comforting word to him and the reason is because that is what I would want.

I do not mind possible solutions to a situation, but first, I would like a little: I get what you mean etc and then go and make suggestions.

My husband tends to make me in the guilty person. What did I say to offend and yet, despite him being an NT, he is very undiplomatic. He is good at quietening a room, because of a controversal thing he said: mainly winding women up and then, walking away and let them pick up the pieces.
 
I personally used to have a whole lot of issues with over empathising, my problem was I couldn't tell when something was my fault or not, so I would just blame myself and it would always end in disaster. Psychologists and the like simply thought I had anxiety and gave me little sayings like "it's not your fault". Problem was, I could never tell if it was or not, I would just feel the tension coming from my father and see his reaction then think it was all on me. I honestly felt very guilty about everything, it wasn't healthy. I still sometimes can't tell what causeses people to feel a certain way or act as they do towards me, and I still have issues with assuming it's my fault, even when it's sompletly unrelated. So I can empathise, but I will not understand someone's feelings or where they're coming from at times unless it's explained to me.
 
I don't think those three things necessarily go together. Personally, I can recognize and feel, but "showing appropriate concern" is a challenge. Maybe the definition just needs to be broken down further. Or something

Or perhaps needs to be reconsidered @Eruva. Know that I often 'feel' emotions through contagion from movies and television and video. Cognitive empathy is described as the ability to recognize someone else's emotional state, so if you see someone's face contorted or tears, or anger, or happiness, it's evident. But if there are no physical clues, then it's more difficult. I don't always pick up on the clues, and sometimes I ignore them in other people.

The empathic concern thing is another state I have problems with, it seems artificial when people try to to comfort someone, probably because it seems a learned habit. I know that when I've done that, I became tired of doing so unless it was someone I was close to like biological family or a child. Even then it didn't seem all that honest.
 

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