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Does anyone else think Trump is a traitor?

Discussion in 'Politics Discussion' started by LucyPurrs, Nov 21, 2020.

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  1. LucyPurrs

    LucyPurrs NT, INFJ V.I.P Member

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    Trump is clearly trying his best to undermine our election and sabotage our democracy.
    I don't understand why he cannot be charged with treason as his attempts to overturn the election is tantamount to trying to overthrow our democracy.

    Does anyone else feel this way?
     
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  2. tree

    tree Blue/Green Staff Member V.I.P Member

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    I don't think 'feelings' are what need to be examined to answer this question.

    The law is what a person should look to, regarding treason.
     
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  3. Kalinychta

    Kalinychta Well-Known Member

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    Your understanding of his motivations and actions comes through heavily biased media sources. I think he has every right to challenge the election results if he feels that they may not be accurate. That’s not undermining democracy; it’s making use of the freedoms it affords us.
     
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  4. Judge

    Judge Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't believe so. At least not in a strict legal sense in terms of 18 U.S. Code Chapter 115.

    Impeachment or use of the 25th Amendment (Section IV) are the only means of removing a sitting president. Though neither seem viable given the intensely partisan nature of both the legislative and executive branches of government.

    The 25th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution

    18 U.S. Code Chapter 115 - TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES


    These particular crimes involving conspiracy are fundamentally difficult to prosecute given the laws themselves. On the other hand, some of the worst betrayals of America have resulted in plea bargains involving conspiracy to commit espionage and espionage itself. (Robert Hanssen, Aldrich Ames, John A. Walker) That's about as close as such successful prosecutions get. But I don't see Trump being charged with espionage. However Rudy Giuliani may have a lot explaining to do involving his meetings with known state actors for Russia while in Ukraine.

    As soon as Trump leaves office on January 20th at 12:00pm, he will be subject to the scrutiny of state prosecutors potentially over other issues such as tax evasion and bank fraud. And unless Trump pardons himself for federal crimes he has committed or could be prosecuted for, it's possible that federal prosecutors may begin to build multiple cases of their own. And then there is the potential for civil litigation against the Trump Organization and the Trump family in the form of class action lawsuits.

    There's a lot to motivate Trump to remain in office and beyond the reach of prosecutors.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  5. Meistersinger

    Meistersinger Well-Known Member

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    You bet he’s a traitor! Anyone who disclosed state secrets to so- called enemies of the state, like he did to the Chinese Premier has, in my not so humble opinion, committed treason, and therefore be punished and punished harshly for that deed. Had a lowly contractor employee, like I was in the early to mid 1990’s for the Department of Defense, told state secrets to a known spy, I’d be six foot underground in a tightly sealed coffin by now.

    I had more than enough problems getting my secret clearance when I first was employed as a document manager in the GPS program office for Naval Research and Development’s Research Development Testing and Engineering Division Detachment Warminster, PA., because of the heavy debt load I was carrying. I was almost terminated from that job because DISCO, the agency within DoD that does the investigations for security clearances, could not get past the issues of my debt burden. It took almost 6 months to convince that agency I was not about to sell state secrets about GPS, which secrets that I didn’t have access to begin with, that I wouldn’t even begin to understand. (To paraphrase “Bones” McCoy, “Dammit, Jim, I’m a musician, not an engineer.”
     
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  6. Judge

    Judge Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, background checks are not particularly pleasant.

    Debt and income analysis was how the CIA, FBI and the IRS caught up with Aldrich Ames in 1994. His usual shabby appearance was suddenly replaced with expensive clothes and cars. He was acquiring personal property that defied his declared income. Eventually someone noticed and put two-and-two together that went "tilt" given that his income was being "subsidized" by the Russians.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  7. MrSpock

    MrSpock Live long and prosper

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    For the purposes of this thread I should like to remain neutral in that I am not advocating support for either Trump or Biden.

    I cannot say for sure, but I would guess that @LucyPurrs is on the left, and @Kalinychta is on the right. Again I cannot know, but I would guess that @tree's comment was a neutral one. I might guess that her motivation was to try to keep political discourse productive since without it you cannot reasonably hope to have a functioning democracy that truly represents the people. Again, I am only guessing, and certainly cannot say from what sources these people get their information and opinions; to assert that I did know would be a poor start to productive conversation.

    At the time when I first viewed this thread only one person had agreed to Tree's post, and that was Kalinychta. Since Tree had stated that feelings were not relevant I find Kalinychta's agreement rather strange, as Kalinychta immediately went on to say that "...he has every right to challenge the election results if he feels that...".

    I cannot know, but I might guess that Kalinychta only agreed with Tree because Kalinychta saw the admonishment as a 'point for Trump' since LucyPurrs is on the left and Tree seemed to be in opposition to what LucyPurrs had stated. I might note that it is equally in opposition to Kalinychta's post. [edit- Yikes! Not equally in opposition. Still I think opposed in spirit, although Kalinychta doesn't quote Trump referring directly to treason whereas Tree's post does specifically refer to treason. I do hope that Tree will correct me if I'm wrong, don't want to put words in other's mouths.]

    Productive conversation does not consist of scoring points in this way.

    I may seem to be supporting the left here, but please let me state clearly (in case it was not already obvious) that I agree completely that one ought not to be citing one's feelings as evidence in an accusation of treason. That is better suited to an accusation of witchery. I should imagine that after four years of running a country it should not be so very difficult to find fault with anyone without resorting to talk of how we might feel about them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020
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  8. Judge

    Judge Well-Known Member

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    Decent, but relatively brief historical, legal and constitutional considerations in prosecuting traitors in America.

    And why it can be a precarious proposition both legally and politically.

    The Case For Treason
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020
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  9. Thinx

    Thinx Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Honestly people, how have you ended up with that guy at the top of the tree? There's a shop down the road that sells him as a dog toy, and they sell LOTS. Albeit Boris with his fluffy hair sells well too. Grrrr!
     
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  10. Esa

    Esa Well-Known Member

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    He’s both racist and sexist (among many other things) and does anyone think he’d have the best interests of a country full of people in mind? Is there any way for someone so awful to actually serve people?

    I hope to see days when it will be unacceptable to remain neutral in the face of such injustices and crimes against humanity.

    “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”
    -Martin Luther King, Jr.
     
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  11. Mary Terry

    Mary Terry Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    Trump's lawsuits challenging the election are being summarily dismissed all over the country by judges appointed by Republicans and Democrats. He has no substantive evidence of fraud despite his tweets and rantings. Hearsay is rarely admissible in evidence and only within narrow exceptions to the hearsay rule. His attorneys acknowledge on the record in courts that the lawsuits do not assert fraud. I guess they don't want to risk their law licenses by lying to the court. The rule of law will prevail, and he will leave office on January 20, 2021.

    The laws do provide for recounting of votes if the margins of votes are within a certain percentage, and he has every right to do so. However, the recounts have not given him sufficient citizen votes to obtain electoral votes in his favor, and he is getting pushback from the Republicans he is lobbying to appoint pro-Trump electoral college representatives in defiance of the popular vote in key states.
     
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  12. Esa

    Esa Well-Known Member

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    That’s just passive and angry, imo :)
     
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